U.S. Men 2012-13 news, updates & general discussion

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Sep 16, 2012.

  1. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Ross is also more watchable than I remember. He has nice glide and jumps, and this is just a tiny point but I like his costuming - wearing a belt makes him look less 'boxy' than last year. The only critique I have is he needs to 'reach out' to the audience and involve them more in his programs. That might help his PCS in the long run.
     
  2. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    I do not think this was at all a "bad" competition for Ross. Every competition is a learning experience. And Ross surely learned a lot, and he definitely bounced back in the fp. Ross has been training very hard and he made the effort to put the quad out there in both sp and fp. So what that his efforts re the quad did not pan out in his GP debut this season! If you don't at least start with trying to put the quad in, then it will never happen. Ross tried and he has been successful in practice, so it will come in competition. I would give Ross a B-.

    As far as I'm concerned the judges under-rated Ross in the sp because several guys placed in front of Ross in the sp also made similar errors. Gachinski should have been behind Ross in the sp. Ross was likely also hurt re judges' scoring by having to skate early in the sp. Amodio and Ten were given the benefit of the doubt in the sp due to their Worlds 2012 rankings perhaps. I think Ten deserves higher PCS than Ross overall, but Amodio, not so much. Balde skated clean in the sp and deserved to be a bit ahead of Ross there, but Balde is not as polished a skater as Ross (and I don't believe Balde included a quad in his sp, did he?).

    Ross has always been very "watchable." I've always found him to be entertaining and consistent, as well as resilient. He is obviously still developing all aspects of his skating, and he does need to continue working particularly on his presentation skills. But he's going in the right direction. He had good programs last season, and even better ones this season. Great Tom Dickson choreo. I like both of Ross' costumes too. I'd like to see him develop his "swashbuckling" character a bit more in his fp. But it isn't easy to manage all the technical requirements today and demonstrate spot-on artistry -- it comes with time, and slow and steady will win the race. I really love the way Mark and Peter guide their skaters. They are very professional, top-notch coaches!
     
  3. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    I think Ross Miner knows a lot about how to connect with the audience. ;)

    One of the things I like the most about his skating is that his style is very much his own. And he's got some of the best skating skills among the U.S. men.

    Now get out there land that quadruple salchow! :kickass:
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2012
  4. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    My earlier post was in regards to Ross's LP. Now, I did go back and watch Ross's SP from SC and found it to be quite good despite the errors. I felt that the SP really 'reached out' to the audience, but I didn't get that same impression from the LP. I will say that everything else clicks for me and you're right Vagabond, I hope he gets out there and lands the 4S. The 3x's are like clockwork thus far. That's a good start!
     
  5. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    What did you link to? The video has been removed.

    I do really enjoy watching Ross because he's an excellent skater and he always seems to be enjoying his performances. It was very courageous of him not to stop skating when his pants strap came loose at 4CCs. I'm looking forward to seeing him further develop his new fp, and also land those quads in competition. :)
     
  6. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    off the hook.
    now its up to go to Keegan Messing and Dornbush
     
  7. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand why the referee doesn't automatically stop the program when a guy's pant strap becomes loose. Just err on the safe side and stop the freaking program for the skater's safety.
     
  8. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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  9. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    And his partner's.
     
  10. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Ross doesn't have an on-ice partner of course. But I know what you mean. Possibly, had it happened to a male pairs skater, the referee or the skaters themselves might have stopped the performance because of the danger on pair elements. However, I suppose stopping a program is usually a last resort depending upon the circumstances involved.
     
  11. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Sorry -- I had too many windows open and thought we were talking about a pairs skater :eek:
     
  12. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Looking at the scores so far this season...it really doesn't seem out of the realms of possibility that Aaron, Messing, and Farris could be on the podium at Nationals this year. The scores they've posted and jumps they've landed thus far this season serve to back them up. Adam is still having 3a problems judging from his China SP, Ross and Jeremy aren't consistent with their quads yet, Armin didn't get great PCS at SA, Johnny is definitely rusty, and internationally Razzano is still clearly regarded as a 2nd or 3rd tier American man. I wouldn't be surprised if these 3 and Dornbush comprised the podium at Nationals, at least, if the event was to be judged fairly.
     
  13. icellist

    icellist Member

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    I think so far, Dornbush and Farris have been the best of the US men this season. As of now, I hope those 2 go to worlds.
     
  14. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, but I wonder even if Farris medals at Nationals, if he will just be sent to JW again, as he'd be a favorite to win there and if he were to go to Worlds he'd be making his senior international debut there, and with spots for the Olympic team on the line, the USFS might feel better about sending a more experienced skater instead. Of course, Dornbush made his senior international debut at Worlds in 2011 and skated quite well there, but the situation was less stressful/pressure inducing in that it wasn't the season before the Olympics, there were 3 men on the team instead of 2, given the team I don't think many expected 3 spots to be maintained regardless of how well the men skated, and including quads in your programs wasn't as important to place well.

    On the other hand though, I do wish he'd get sent to Worlds (or 4CC) if his placement at Nationals would warrant it, because that would indicate he'd be a contender to make the Sochi Olympic team in which case it would be beneficial to go senior before the season of the Olympics.

    Probably a moot point anyways, I just more don't see the value in favoring someone like Rippon or Miner when some of these younger guys show they can score comparably, if not better, already, have displayed a greater aptitude for landing difficult jumps like quads and 3a-3t, have shown improvement and can be expected to continue to improve into the future, and have the advantage of being at a good age for both the 2014 and 2018 Olympics. Abbott is somewhat different because he has the potential to score well and be a contender for medals while none of the other men currently really have a shot, but based on the way he usually performs and scores, and considering his age and lack of a consistent quad, the outlook is somewhat similar.

    I mostly feel like Abbott, Weir, Rippon, Miner are unlikely to improve at this point, with the exception of maybe Ross, who I find a little too bland to really be a medal contender ever - though others may disagree, and any jump and/or consistency issues are likely to remain, or at least not improve/be corrected dramatically, until they retire, so it sort of seems like a no brainer to invest in some of these younger guys (Farris, Messing, Aaron and even Ricky because he's been having a lot of success with his 4t recently) who can score comparably already and have more time and better odds to improve any issues they currently have (although in general they seem to have less technique issues and better jumps/technical abilities than those I mentioned before). Anyone else feel the same way?
     
  15. merrywidow

    merrywidow Well-Known Member

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    I think Ross has the potential to score well internationally if he begins to land his quad. His strength is his consistency & he is such a smooth skater. I like the idea of Dornbush & Aaron medaling at US Nationals too...maybe this year.
     
  16. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    To me Messing and Farris have a lot more going for them artistically than Ross at this point. Ross is consistent and a good technician but he's lacking wow or it factor IMO. Aaron is sort of the same way but he's an even stronger technician and younger so I have more hope that he can develop artistry compared to Ross. Keegan is very dynamic and engaging and Josh has the elegant, romantic vibe going for him in his skating. Idk, maybe Ross will surprise me and really step it up in terms of artistry, he is very smooth as you have said, I also wonder if my opinion of him has to do with his programs, which for the past few seasons I've found to be lacking in oomph/impact.
     
  17. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

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    I finally just got around to Johnny at Finlandia. I thought he skated the best I've ever seen, obviously not considering the jumps. This program to me shows a more mature Johnny, more attack and passion, less princessy and fakey. I was prepared to be unimpressed and stop after a minute or two, but he had my attention the whole time. Hopefully he'll get more solid on his jumps, but he has a great program for sure. Whether it will win over the judges' hearts at Nats is another story, but good for him.
     
  18. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Uhmmm, I think U.S. fans should just wake up and smell the roses and stop over-analyzing. Yes, I agree it is often fun to predict and to discuss personal perspectives and dish about favorites. I'm guilty of overdoing that too. Still, I'm hoping to do my best to try and just root for and enjoy the skaters I love and be happy for the skaters who perform their best and medal.

    I don't think anyone should be "favored" over anyone else. Let them all compete and judge them fairly on the basis of all factors that are in play, which include international experience, maturity, strength of choreography and performances, strength of all-around athleticism and artistic skills (since both qualities combined will be needed to do well on the international stage). May the best men win.

    From my personal perspective, if they all perform well and have success in landing their quads, it will be a toss-up between Jeremy, Johnny, (Evan if he returns), Richard, Ross, and Adam for making the U.S. Worlds team. Sure enough that Keegan, Joshua, Armin and possibly Carriere, Aaron and Razzano will all be in the running for medals -- chiefly bronze and pewter, IMHO.

    IMO, no matter how well Keegan, Joshua, Aaron, and Armin perform, I think it is unlikely that they will end up on the Worlds team simply because they don't have top senior international experience and recognition, much less reputation. The U.S. needs to send two guys to 2013 Worlds who can bring back three spots for the 2013 - 2014 season. That's why I believe the team may consist of one veteran (such as Jeremy, Johnny, Evan) and one experienced up-and-comer (such as Richard, Ross, Adam). Sure if Keegan performs both programs superbly and brings down the house, he has an outside chance of making the team (because of his performance abilities, charisma, and his improvements this season), but I doubt that Aaron would be able to make the team, and I think the consensus is that Joshua is young enough to still have time and so they probably won't risk rushing him.

    ITA re your assessment of Ross. I also think Dornbush has an excellent chance of making the World team should he perform to his capabilities at Nationals. Even should Aaron perform more consistently and show artistic improvement, I doubt he would make the World team, but he definitely has a chance to compete for a lesser medal.

    Again, no matter how much we speculate and over-analyze, the results will occur as they happen in real time.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2012
  19. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    I think the leading US men at this point are Dornbush, Miner and Abbott w/ Messing and Aaron waiting in the wings.
     
  20. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Not clear who you mean by "these 3." Also re Adam's 3axel at CoC sp, I heard his coach Rafael say to him in the kiss 'n cry: "You forgot to check..." in reference to the 3axel, which Adam appeared to fully rotate but landed two-footed and fell. However, it seemed to me that Adam's takeoff on the 3axel was much more aggressive and technically sound (and not hesitant like it was last season). Therefore, it seems he needs to fine tune technical aspects on landing, i.e., checking properly.

    When Adam first debuted in seniors he was landing 3axels routinely without any problems. Perhaps his technique was not solid though, and when he later switched coaches to Orser and eventually began to lose confidence, likely his 3axel began to suffer a bit due to lack of solid technique which added to increasing loss of confidence and the problem began to snowball.

    Adam seems on the right track now with Rafael Arutunian. I wish Adam lots of good luck in his CoC fp.
     
  21. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    ITA. There was less hesitation on the prep entrance before the take-off, and the jump looked complete on the landing. I can't say I'm a big fan of the choreography and music choice though, since Rippon has done these types of "pretty, pretty" programs before; Would have like to see something that made more of a statement. I did enjoy the MK's layback in his combo spin :)
     
  22. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Yes, ITA. The sp seemed like more of an afterthought or fall back to a style Adam has done before. Re the 3axel in sp, I watched again and it wasn't as aggressive as I thought, but not as much stalking as he's done before. Also, he landed it on one foot (not two), but just didn't check out properly.

    With the pre-season ballyhoo, I was looking to be really impressed with Adam's fp, and it could be that the warm-up collision and Song's withdrawal shook Adam up, but still I was very underwhelmed by his fp. Jeremy accomplished suave macho so much better in his Spy sp with more humor and panache in his choreo too, than Adam demonstrated in his Mad Men inspired fp debut. Maybe the music is a bit too slow, but Adam himself seemed much slower in both his sp (which is expected with Nessun Dorma), and even in his fp he did not seem very sharp (granted there was that unfortunate collision prior to his performance). Sorry for Nan Song and I hope it was nothing too bad and he'll be back on the ice soon.

    I love Adam and so far this season, I'm missing him and his curls. He did need technical help with his jumps, but why not just get help with Rafael over the summer and not completely switch coaches. Bad on me for bellyaching, but I want to see the real Adam soar like he did in his great programs from last season. Right now I wish he hadn't completely done away with his curls or left Detroit. He had accomplished something very special I think and more true to who he is with Shae Lynn and Camerlengo last season. Maybe he can get choreo from them for the Olympic season.

    With the strange comp that CoC was this year, I'd say Adam's programs from last season strongly performed with landed 3axel, but even w/o quads should have had him in the medals, maybe even gold with Daisuke not performing well. Do Denis10 and Machida train at the same rink as Adam? Clearly and I do mean clearly ... Adam is a much better all-around skater than Machida and Voronov, but it just does not look that way (at least so far) with the programs Adam has debuted this season.

    From what I've seen so far, I'd have Jeremy, Johnny, Richard, Ross (and even Keegan) well in front of Adam this season in terms of performances, music, choreo and costumes. But anything can happen of course. Trying to wake up and smell the roses. :shuffle:
     
  23. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    I haven't watched Rippon's CoC FS yet but I'm re-posting this report from the CoC forum in Kiss and Cry that squares with other hearsay info I've received:
    Of course he has yet to transfer what he can do in practice to competition, but I believe his working full-time with Rafael Arutunian has been a positive move so far that hopefully will pay off for him in future competitions.
     
  24. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Thanks Sylvia. Indeed, Adam seems to have a good relationship with Rafael, and this is only one comp so far. Still his programs right now don't seem as strong as those from last season. I'm sorry that unfortunate collision happened. I suppose Adam performed as well as he could under the difficult circumstances and surely Rafael offered good encouragement and advice for Adam to have been able to shake off what happened and get focused for his fp performance.
     
  25. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    I meant Aaron, Messing, and Farris. Not saying it will happen, just that based on the performances so far, those 3 guys (and Dornbush) have been more impressive than Abbott, Weir, Mahbanoozadeh, Miner, and now Rippon. Of course it's still early and this could change. Adam's takeoff for the 3a did seem much improved, but idk if that alone is going to make it suddenly turn into a good jump for him like it's a good jump for Keegan and Josh, and Max too - although his 4s is probably even better for him. Then there's also the issue of the quad, which Adam didn't even attempt in either program. I'm willing to excuse the lackluster FS due to the collision and aftermath/affects of that, but I didn't find either program to be particularly engaging nor did I find his speed to be much improved, so essentially, I'm just saying that as of yet, the coaching/choreographer change and new programs don't seem to have lead to big overall improvements in Adam, and I think he's going to need some pretty big improvements to hope to make the World and Olympic teams these upcoming years. Of course time will tell the tale, I guess I was just hoping to be a little more impressed with Adam here than I was.

    I think the bigger issue right now is that it looks like regardless of who gets sent to the Worlds and Olympics, with the exception of Evan coming back to his Vancouver form with a quad and/or Jeremy finally skating clean programs with quads, the outcome is likely to be similar - placement in the lower top 10 on a good day or with help from some of the top guys faltering, and outside of the top 10 with mistakes. Doesn't make the odds for getting 3 spots back particularly bright...
     
  26. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ I wouldn't go so far as being down on the U.S. men's chances this season. I also don't feel that Ross or Johnny have performed terribly -- they both have good programs and just need to fine tune their jumps. Jeremy's programs have great potential. And obviously, Richard performed very well in his season debut at Finlandia. This coming weekend, Johnny and Richard will be at CoR in a tougher field than the one at CoC. I think the U.S. men are very competitive and just need to step it up and regain their confidence and credibility with the judges. Despite his less than stellar debut at CoC, it's not a lost cause for Adam either, even though I prefer his programs from last season.

    Just look at what has happened so far this season, a lot of unexpected outcomes. The U.S. men just need to step it up and be prepared to take advantage of opportunities.

    Aaron, Messing and Farris were performing in senior B and JGP competitions respectively. Great they are doing so well and I hope they continue to succeed. Not certain however that any of their success will necessarily lead to making the World team in 2013.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2012
  27. luenatic

    luenatic Well-Known Member

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    I still think Ross is the US leading man. His edges are comparable to Jeremy. Most of the jumps have interesting entry and exit. I have high hope for Ross. I'm still a big fan of Ross.
     
  28. centerpt1

    centerpt1 Active Member

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    Well, we haven't seen Evan yet. But Ross is certainly enjoyable to watch, has the "likability" factor, and he's a solid competitor. Two years in a row on the Nationals podium is impressive. I think he'll be National champ at some point. I've grown to really appreciate his skating over the last year.

    I don't think Rippon's Free at CoC tells us much. The collision must have affected his skate. So it remains to be seen how the coaching change is going. I don't care for his programs this year- but again, he has time to work on that before Nationals.

    Jeremy- who knows? It is certainly odd that they are re-working his quad NOW. He's also never had stamina issues before, but fell off at the end of his Free at SA. That and the injury last year (and possibly this year) really make me wonder how long he can hold on near the top.
     
  29. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Yes, I too find Ross very impressive. Jeremy has amazing talent and great programs; hopefully he will be healed and feeling strong physically and mentally as the season progresses.

    I think Jeremy, Richard, Johnny and Ross all have strong programs and a great chance to make the World team. As well, Adam will be competitive if he does manage to "transfer what he can do in practice to competition," (quoting Sylvia).

    In re-checking the original IN article about Adam's foray into different territory with his new fp, I see that he began working on his fp with Michael Siebert prior to switching coaches. I'm still more partial to Adam's programs from last season (music and choreo), but he has some nice moves in his new sp and fp. It will take more time for him to polish his fp and build confidence. From the way Rafael was offering encouragement in the kiss 'n cry after both of Adam's performances, it does seem to be a good coaching match for Adam. I guess it is up to Adam to adjust to the transition and to the new direction he's exploring, and to build more confidence and attack.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MM5aUzCQfId sp Nessun Dorma

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anBIXvZxq_Q sp 2011-2012 Korobushka

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMo9-f6I4ME Air/ Toccata & Fugue fp 2011-2012

    http://universalsports.com/video/2012-isu-grand-prix-cup-of-china-adam-rippon-4th/ Metroville fp
     
  30. LilJen

    LilJen Well-Known Member

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    The end of Jeremy's long was affected not by lack of stamina, but by the spinal nerve issues mentioned earlier. He couldn't feel his legs. At all. :(

    I like Adam's new FS, mostly for the music (I love "The Incredibles")--makes me feel like quoting. "EDNA. . . and guest. . . NO CAPE!" I think it has some interesting concepts in it but needs some development.