U.S. Men 2012-13 news, updates & general discussion

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Sep 16, 2012.

  1. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    ITA. There was less hesitation on the prep entrance before the take-off, and the jump looked complete on the landing. I can't say I'm a big fan of the choreography and music choice though, since Rippon has done these types of "pretty, pretty" programs before; Would have like to see something that made more of a statement. I did enjoy the MK's layback in his combo spin :)
  2. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Yes, ITA. The sp seemed like more of an afterthought or fall back to a style Adam has done before. Re the 3axel in sp, I watched again and it wasn't as aggressive as I thought, but not as much stalking as he's done before. Also, he landed it on one foot (not two), but just didn't check out properly.

    With the pre-season ballyhoo, I was looking to be really impressed with Adam's fp, and it could be that the warm-up collision and Song's withdrawal shook Adam up, but still I was very underwhelmed by his fp. Jeremy accomplished suave macho so much better in his Spy sp with more humor and panache in his choreo too, than Adam demonstrated in his Mad Men inspired fp debut. Maybe the music is a bit too slow, but Adam himself seemed much slower in both his sp (which is expected with Nessun Dorma), and even in his fp he did not seem very sharp (granted there was that unfortunate collision prior to his performance). Sorry for Nan Song and I hope it was nothing too bad and he'll be back on the ice soon.

    I love Adam and so far this season, I'm missing him and his curls. He did need technical help with his jumps, but why not just get help with Rafael over the summer and not completely switch coaches. Bad on me for bellyaching, but I want to see the real Adam soar like he did in his great programs from last season. Right now I wish he hadn't completely done away with his curls or left Detroit. He had accomplished something very special I think and more true to who he is with Shae Lynn and Camerlengo last season. Maybe he can get choreo from them for the Olympic season.

    With the strange comp that CoC was this year, I'd say Adam's programs from last season strongly performed with landed 3axel, but even w/o quads should have had him in the medals, maybe even gold with Daisuke not performing well. Do Denis10 and Machida train at the same rink as Adam? Clearly and I do mean clearly ... Adam is a much better all-around skater than Machida and Voronov, but it just does not look that way (at least so far) with the programs Adam has debuted this season.

    From what I've seen so far, I'd have Jeremy, Johnny, Richard, Ross (and even Keegan) well in front of Adam this season in terms of performances, music, choreo and costumes. But anything can happen of course. Trying to wake up and smell the roses. :shuffle:
  3. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    I haven't watched Rippon's CoC FS yet but I'm re-posting this report from the CoC forum in Kiss and Cry that squares with other hearsay info I've received:
    Of course he has yet to transfer what he can do in practice to competition, but I believe his working full-time with Rafael Arutunian has been a positive move so far that hopefully will pay off for him in future competitions.
  4. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Thanks Sylvia. Indeed, Adam seems to have a good relationship with Rafael, and this is only one comp so far. Still his programs right now don't seem as strong as those from last season. I'm sorry that unfortunate collision happened. I suppose Adam performed as well as he could under the difficult circumstances and surely Rafael offered good encouragement and advice for Adam to have been able to shake off what happened and get focused for his fp performance.
  5. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    I meant Aaron, Messing, and Farris. Not saying it will happen, just that based on the performances so far, those 3 guys (and Dornbush) have been more impressive than Abbott, Weir, Mahbanoozadeh, Miner, and now Rippon. Of course it's still early and this could change. Adam's takeoff for the 3a did seem much improved, but idk if that alone is going to make it suddenly turn into a good jump for him like it's a good jump for Keegan and Josh, and Max too - although his 4s is probably even better for him. Then there's also the issue of the quad, which Adam didn't even attempt in either program. I'm willing to excuse the lackluster FS due to the collision and aftermath/affects of that, but I didn't find either program to be particularly engaging nor did I find his speed to be much improved, so essentially, I'm just saying that as of yet, the coaching/choreographer change and new programs don't seem to have lead to big overall improvements in Adam, and I think he's going to need some pretty big improvements to hope to make the World and Olympic teams these upcoming years. Of course time will tell the tale, I guess I was just hoping to be a little more impressed with Adam here than I was.

    I think the bigger issue right now is that it looks like regardless of who gets sent to the Worlds and Olympics, with the exception of Evan coming back to his Vancouver form with a quad and/or Jeremy finally skating clean programs with quads, the outcome is likely to be similar - placement in the lower top 10 on a good day or with help from some of the top guys faltering, and outside of the top 10 with mistakes. Doesn't make the odds for getting 3 spots back particularly bright...
  6. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ I wouldn't go so far as being down on the U.S. men's chances this season. I also don't feel that Ross or Johnny have performed terribly -- they both have good programs and just need to fine tune their jumps. Jeremy's programs have great potential. And obviously, Richard performed very well in his season debut at Finlandia. This coming weekend, Johnny and Richard will be at CoR in a tougher field than the one at CoC. I think the U.S. men are very competitive and just need to step it up and regain their confidence and credibility with the judges. Despite his less than stellar debut at CoC, it's not a lost cause for Adam either, even though I prefer his programs from last season.

    Just look at what has happened so far this season, a lot of unexpected outcomes. The U.S. men just need to step it up and be prepared to take advantage of opportunities.

    Aaron, Messing and Farris were performing in senior B and JGP competitions respectively. Great they are doing so well and I hope they continue to succeed. Not certain however that any of their success will necessarily lead to making the World team in 2013.
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2012
  7. luenatic

    luenatic Well-Known Member

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    I still think Ross is the US leading man. His edges are comparable to Jeremy. Most of the jumps have interesting entry and exit. I have high hope for Ross. I'm still a big fan of Ross.
  8. centerpt1

    centerpt1 Active Member

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    Well, we haven't seen Evan yet. But Ross is certainly enjoyable to watch, has the "likability" factor, and he's a solid competitor. Two years in a row on the Nationals podium is impressive. I think he'll be National champ at some point. I've grown to really appreciate his skating over the last year.

    I don't think Rippon's Free at CoC tells us much. The collision must have affected his skate. So it remains to be seen how the coaching change is going. I don't care for his programs this year- but again, he has time to work on that before Nationals.

    Jeremy- who knows? It is certainly odd that they are re-working his quad NOW. He's also never had stamina issues before, but fell off at the end of his Free at SA. That and the injury last year (and possibly this year) really make me wonder how long he can hold on near the top.
  9. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Yes, I too find Ross very impressive. Jeremy has amazing talent and great programs; hopefully he will be healed and feeling strong physically and mentally as the season progresses.

    I think Jeremy, Richard, Johnny and Ross all have strong programs and a great chance to make the World team. As well, Adam will be competitive if he does manage to "transfer what he can do in practice to competition," (quoting Sylvia).

    In re-checking the original IN article about Adam's foray into different territory with his new fp, I see that he began working on his fp with Michael Siebert prior to switching coaches. I'm still more partial to Adam's programs from last season (music and choreo), but he has some nice moves in his new sp and fp. It will take more time for him to polish his fp and build confidence. From the way Rafael was offering encouragement in the kiss 'n cry after both of Adam's performances, it does seem to be a good coaching match for Adam. I guess it is up to Adam to adjust to the transition and to the new direction he's exploring, and to build more confidence and attack.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MM5aUzCQfId sp Nessun Dorma

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anBIXvZxq_Q sp 2011-2012 Korobushka

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMo9-f6I4ME Air/ Toccata & Fugue fp 2011-2012

    http://universalsports.com/video/2012-isu-grand-prix-cup-of-china-adam-rippon-4th/ Metroville fp
  10. LilJen

    LilJen Well-Known Member

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    The end of Jeremy's long was affected not by lack of stamina, but by the spinal nerve issues mentioned earlier. He couldn't feel his legs. At all. :(

    I like Adam's new FS, mostly for the music (I love "The Incredibles")--makes me feel like quoting. "EDNA. . . and guest. . . NO CAPE!" I think it has some interesting concepts in it but needs some development.
  11. centerpt1

    centerpt1 Active Member

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    Exactly my point- he's hit the wall of injury that affects his skating. It seems Lysacek is in the same boat.

    Is it training the quad? Are the years of training just adding up? Are they over-training? Whatever the cause, it's a shame that the US's best men have had this happen now.

    I hope Jeremy and Evan will be healed and ready to go for Nationals (and hopefully Worlds)
  12. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    I suspect overtraining in Jeremy's case. He talked a lot in his interview about training hard and then having an inexplicable inability to perform at his event. That's classic overtraining.

    Of course, I have no idea what's really going on. It's just what I yelled at the tv when he was interviewed after Skate America. :lol:
  13. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    That camel change camel is spectacular. Totally +3 - worthy.

    I am confused about his long program layout. He usually does a 3flip3toe but with the 3flip being his very last element in the program and with him not even attempting a combination with the flip at Cup of China, I wonder where his third combination or 3/3 is supposed to be. Is Arutuniain pushing him to do a 3axel3toe? :eek:
  14. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    I think the 3s in the beginning is supposed to be a 4s, and then his lutz is supposed to be 3lz-1/2lo-3s like last season, but when he triples the opening sal, he probably has a backup plan to change the lutz combo to 3lz-2t-2lo so he doesn't Zayak but still gets the 3 jump combo in. In this case he could have gone for that combo anyway where he popped his first 3a, but he probably trains to do the 3-2-2 combo every time he triples the first 3s just to prevent an Oda, regardless of what might happen on the 3a. Considering he did 1a-2t in the beginning, I assume he isn't going for a 3a-3t but just a 3a-2t and then probably plans to do 3f-3t in the 2nd half of the program.

    All speculation, of course. But last season he had a smart layout with 3f-3t, 3lz-1/2lo-3s, and Rippon 3lz all in the 2nd half of his program to serve as a buffer for not having a consistent 3a or quad. And I do recall at WTT when he did only a 3s in the beginning of the program, the lutz combo became 3lz-2t-2lo instead. I don't think it's that unusual to have a safety net plan like this and think that's probably what he did here. The 3f is the last jump so maybe he plans to add the 3t to a different jump, perhaps the 2a, earlier in the program but still in the 2nd half. It would be cool/impressive to do a 3-3 as your last jumping pass though so that could be the plan.
  15. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I like Miner very much, but he does a lot of stroking to gain speed, and in my opinion, doresn't carry it as efficiently as Abbott.

    I think Abbott is in the top handful of men when it comes to using his edges and knees to gain and carry speed, and his lean over the edge is second to none.
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  16. maureenfarone

    maureenfarone Active Member

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    There was a report of Adam doing 3A-3T in the report about the collision:

    " wish speed recovery Nang Song and Adam! Adam did a good practice today landed 3a-3t, several 3a. The program he skated in the morning looked nice and fresh. I think he was very affected by this crash mentally and physically. Voronov said at presser that he and his skating was affected too because he saw how it happened"

    It seems like 3A-3T might be part of the plan.

    The free skate seems to be a departure from the type of program he usually does - not a "pretty-pretty" program at all.
  17. Pretty Vegas

    Pretty Vegas Well-Known Member

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    I am really looking forward to seeing how Ricky and Johnny do this weekend. They are in a very tough field - so it should be interesting.
  18. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the LP is a different style. I've only seen it once, but there were a lot of hand gestures in the choreography that annoyed me. It looked like he was rolling the dices at one point but at other times I was puzzled; I couldn't tell what the gestures represented in the Mad Men era.

    I know Michael Seibert has worked on shows like Skating with Celebrities before, but has he done any competitive programs before?

    I do like Adam's shorter hairstyle and the non-fussy approach to his costumes this year.
  19. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Armin Mahbanoozadeh skates #3 and Douglas Razzano #16 at Ice Challenge in Graz, Austria today (approx. 3:30 pm Eastern start time) - link to the live stream is posted in the event thread in Kiss and Cry as well as in the TV Alerts forum.
  20. dots

    dots Well-Known Member

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    I give up... at this point I don't see how we can bring home three spots :eek:

    I love them all and yet I want to :wall: .
  21. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    According to the protocols at Rostelecom Cup, Ricky nails the 4T only to completely bail on the 3z-3t. :wall:
  22. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Oh ye (all) of little faith! ;)

    ETA: I think the U.S. guys are all setting individual goals to improve their international results/standings, but many of them have yet to execute under the pressure of Senior Grand Prix competition... but that's what early season competitions are for and about.

    Razzano won silver and Mahbanoozadeh bronze in Graz today (neither landed a quad in the FS but quads aren't everything :p).
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
  23. flyingsit

    flyingsit Well-Known Member

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    His lean over the edge (love the description, by the way) reminds me very much of Stephane Lambiel.
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  24. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Yes but what were their scores? I'm guessing low 200s. To get 3 spots at the Olympics we are going to need at least one guy capable of scoring 240+ and at present it seems like the only hopes of that are Jeremy and Ricky IF they skate clean with quads and that is a huge if...

    ETA yup 200 and 204. Not exactly encouraging scores, though maybe if they both had messy FS, it would make me feel a little better. Interesting how the US man with the highest ISU SB thus far in the season is 13 year old Nathan Chen :p
  25. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    My post had nothing to do with/say about 3 spots to the Olympics.
  26. nylynnr

    nylynnr Active Member

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    I agree it is counterproductive to be negative, but still, it is a tad disappointing that the two, who have both competed at previous competitions this season including Skate America, didn't do a bit better with non-quad elements. Certainly Liebers made his own mistakes, yet managed to do enough to gain a far higher FS score that either American.
  27. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    The US men haven't had a promising newcomer to the GP to shake up the scene. The "new" US man this season is the returning Johnny; Evan hasn't come back; right now, there's no leader. The energy level among US men is bound to be a bit...languid. Perhaps Josh would skate well at US nationals and get sent to 4CC or something to boost the energy level.

    I wish USFS helped Josh get 2 gps, not just for Josh's sake. You need to promote new comers to inject new energy to your program, esp. when your top skaters have been the same people for a while.

    On the up side, thanks to several rejuvenated veterans and a newbie Gracie Gold, the energy level among US ladies has changed, and I'm getting excited about US ladies again.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
  28. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Josh I think could have gotten 2 GPs honestly, between the withdrawals and the fact that Adam, Ross, and Ricky all also only had one guarantee and managed to each get a 2nd. I also wish Messing and Aaron had been more seriously considered for a host spot, or that USFS spread the wealth out at competitions like 4CC more, that way skaters like Keegan and Max could manage to get an ISU SB score so that they could be considered for GPs. It's not that they aren't good enough and can't earn the scores to get them, it's that they haven't competed in events giving SB scores since aging out of juniors!

    I have high hopes for Josh. His JGP scores didn't seem that great when he earned them, but it's now November and those numbers are still among the highest any of the other guys have put up on the senior GP events, and with one less element too. Maybe if he can win the JGPF convincingly, a la Dornbush in 2010, USFS will start to take him more seriously and maybe send him to 4CC should he skate well at Nats and land on the podium (or even maybe like 5th or something). He could still do JW afterwards if he wanted to, as well. Kovtun will be steep competition at JGPF, but even if he doesn't hit there, maybe it will mean he'll finally skate well at Nats.

    Interested in seeing if anyone puts up exciting numbers at Sectionals this weekend.

    I think the frustrating thing with the US men is, there's no shortage of talent, quite the opposite actually, it just seems like the strongest guys at the moment are either inconsistent, have their age working against them physically, still competing on the JGP, or stuck on the senior B circuit due to limited GP and ISU championship spots.

    Anyways, not expecting much from Johnny, but I still really like Ricky and hope he can pull up lots in the FS and show his Finlandia FS was not a fluke!
  29. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    I was totally surprised by Dornbush's performance. Everything was going nice, going great, I even kind of liked it and then whoops I just skated off a cliff. Which was a shame. Hope he has a better free skate tonight.

    As for Weir, well, uh...I liked the second part of the music? And he still has nice lines and flow.
  30. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Who has been named to replace Johnny at TEB?
  31. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    He withdrew a couple of days before the start, and the French Fed is not obligated to fill his spot. They could, but they haven't, at least yet.
  32. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Here are the 12 Sectional qualifiers to 2013 Nationals (total scores included):

    Easterns 1-4: Stephen Carriere 204.92, Harrison Choate 190.84, Wesley Campbell 189.68, Grant Hochstein 186.48;
    Midwesterns 1-4: Max Aaron 233.58, Alexander Johnson 223.18, Brandon Mroz 200.32, William Brewster 171.13;
    Pacifics 1-4: Keegan Messing 201.98, Jonathan Cassar 183.00, Philip Warren 180.31, Sean Rabbitt 170.59.

    The top 3 Junior Men qualifying scores from Sectionals: 12-year-old Vincent Zhou 196.33, Nathan Chen 193.05 (he omitted 3A & 3Lz from his programs since he is still recovering from his injury), Jordan Moeller 188.70.
  33. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Max Aaaron's score is really high. And he's shown his 4s and 3a are really consistent. I hope he is seriously considered for Worlds if he skates well at Nats and not kept down in the standings due to politics and PCS inflation for favorites. We really need a guy who can hit the quads and 3as consistently, and most of those considered contenders for the World team have issues with at least one of those jumps if not both. If Max can score like he has been lately, he could be mid-lower top 10 at Worlds and then maybe we could get 3 spots if Abbott or Lysacek could deliver. I even wonder if Max could jump his way on or near the podium in Gatchinski or Brezina-like fashion...
  34. merrywidow

    merrywidow Well-Known Member

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    I'm a fan of Max's but I think if he can place in the top 5 at Nationals it will be a great step/jump :encore: forward for him. His style marks will hold him back IMO at 2013 Nat'ls.
    He's becoming the most consistent jumper among the US men & I'm excited for him. However, if either Dornbush or Miner can land just one quad in either their sp or lp at Nationals I think they'll place ahead of Aaron. And it goes without saying that if Abbott skates well he will too.
  35. skaters04

    skaters04 Active Member

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    At Pacifics, Messing hit a quad toe in his short program (which overall was pretty good), and then did triple axel combo, quad toe and triple lutz in the opening of his free skate, but messed up the landings on all of them (and the lutz was to be a triple-triple). While he "didn't want to make excuses, "he and his coach both acknowledged it was a really bad skate for him, but he he had just returned from Nice about a week ago (where he won with a score about, I think, 15-20 points higher -- which would make sense, because he left at least that many points on the ice with sloppy landings at Pacifics) and he'd been "on the road" for a couple of months and was a bit tired.

    Zhou looked really, really good in the junior men's final, very confident, while Chen was very good, too, but did leave out a couple of jumps. But both of them are still VERY tiny -- don't know what they'll be like when they mature more, but both are very confident skaters. Zhou just turned 12 and Chen was 13 in May, so both are quite a ways away from being senior international age eligible.
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  36. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Is Zhou actually that tiny? He looked quite a bit bigger than Chen, who is obviously tiny but also a year and a half older and going through a growthspurt right now, so considering that, Zhou might not actually be that small for his age. Chen is what, 4'9", and Zhou seems a couple inches taller at least, so if he's 4'11" or 5' at barely 12 that's not that small, and he therefore could grow early and be a more normal size/mostly grown in the few years it takes him to become eligible for seniors. Chen was clearly affected by his injury, so Nationals will be interesting, Zhou won here (barely), but we know Chen can do a lot better. Shotaro is also quite strong but didn't skate well at Sectionals. It will be interesting to see who steps up and makes the JW team. I'm also interested to see what happens at the JGPF with Brown and Farris, Yan is not there but Kovtun and Jin have quads.
  37. skaters04

    skaters04 Active Member

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    I talked to Zhou briefly after the event and he said he was 4-9.
  38. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Okay so he is tiny. It might have been the costume choice that made him look taller than Chen, or maybe he's just not as skinny in build. Definitely a lot of growing to do for both of them. I hope Nathan's injury heals, apparently the type of injury he has is very painful and can take a while to correct itself? Hope his symptoms aren't too bad!
  39. johnet

    johnet New Member

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    Oh that surprises me a little bit because his personal website listed him as 4'10'' (http://govincentzhou.wordpress.com/profile-4/) and that was updated like months ago, so I kind of figured that he must be a little bit taller than that now.
  40. johnet

    johnet New Member

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    I remember seeing an update on his website saying that his withdraw was due to an ankle injury which he aggravated just before JGP Croatia. But the message also mentioned he has "Osgood-Chlatter knee pain." But that doesn't seem to be the reason he withdrew. Since in the recent sectional competition he didn't use any of the Lutz jump, I'm guessing he is still recovering from the ankle injury.