Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Sep 16, 2012.
I would have given Johnny a lot lower than a -B tbh...
Why that is completely shocking from you, misskarne
^I think Johnny is fine w/ a B-. He hasn't competed since Vancouver and the fact he was landing the 4T (albeit UR) and 3x in a serious comp early in the season is good news to me.
Armin and Doug both had better showings at SA than Jeremy IMO, taking into consideration what they are capable of. I'd give Armin a B and Doug a C, keeping Jeremy at D.
Different graders, different report cards:
Richard = B+ (Bravo, and keep going strong; become consistent with the quad)
Johnny = B- (get comfortable with new skates; land the quad cleanly; programs have great potential, IMO)
Jeremy = C- (great sp and beautiful fp -- needs physiotherapist, better jump layout and mental strategy, plus land all the jumps -- he can do it!)
Armin = D (land the quad, get more colorful costumes and build more impact and excitement)
Douglas = D overall (but better job in fp; needs to project more, and as above, land those quads)
I agree that it would have done a world of good had Doug and Armin been able to land all of their planned quads at SA or at the least skate cleanly and beat Machida (who skated cleanly and w/o fear, but is still only an up-and-coming 4th place Japanese skater -- did he even attempt a quad?), and Menshov. No question that Jeremy coulda shoulda landed on top of the podium had he landed his jumps -- too bad that he suffered or aggravated compressed nerve problem. Obviously, at the least Jeremy coulda been somewhere on the podium, and Armin and Doug could have placed better (at least 4th or 5th and 7th, rather than 7th and 9th).
The SA field did not contain either of the top two guys in the world. While Kozuka is a wonderful skater, he did not perform his absolute best at SA. I feel Hanyu was overscored in the sp (if they wanted to give out high scores, 88 - 90 is within reason for what he did in sp ... 95 is just a statement from the judges that they are totally awed by Hanyu and giving him more cred than he deserves at this point). Hanyu is precocious, but still only 17, and he still needs to gain experience, endurance and maturity, as his failures in the fp showed.
Ross is very resilient; fingers-crossed for him at SC!
Razzano landed his opening 4T cleanly in his Skate America FS.
Ross Miner landed at least two 4S in his first Skate Canada practice this morning (1 in his FS run-through - his other jumps were 2A (opened up)+2T, 3A, 3Lz landed then fell, 3Lz+half loop +3S combo, 3Lo, 3F, outside edge spread eagle to 2A) - link to watch a live stream of Thursday practices is posted in the TV Alerts forum (SC practice discussion thread is in the Kiss and Cry section): http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/sho...-Online-Viewing-Options&p=3722192#post3722192
^^ Thanks Sylvia. Yes, Doug was fired up to perform better in his fp, and he did do a lot better and determinedly landed the quad (thumbs-up for landing the quad in his fp, but he still needs consistency and improved presentation skills). It seems to me that since Doug and Armin don't have as much senior international exposure, they've got to go out there every time and skate lights out just to be given some credit, otherwise if they don't perform their best, political/rep scoring will keep them even further down in the marks.
Kudos to Ross, and keep up with the good work! Is Mark Mitchell with Ross at SC? (Peter J accompanied Christina to SA, and Mark was with Harrison Choate at his latest medal-winning comp). Mark and Peter are wonderful coaches.
Yes, Mitchell is with Miner at SC.
Keegan Messing and Max Aaron are competing in the SP at Cup of Nice (starting now) - a link to the live stream is posted in this TV Alerts thread: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/sho...live-stream-(thru-Oct-28)-amp-archived-videos
Wow, Messing just scored 80.61 in his Cup of Nice SP! He landed 3A, 3Lz+3T, and a huge Russian split jump into 3F at the end.
ETA: Messing received an edge call on his flip - he leads after the SP with Max Aaron 2nd, 75.95 (4S fall, 3Lz+3T hand, very nice 3A). Men's FS is tomorrow.
^^ Are any vids available from Coup de Nice.
Hope Ross can go clean in his fp at SC. Skating early went against Ross at SC, but he sure was not being held in high regard by the judges either (despite his fall out with hands down on the quad, and major error on combo where he lost a lot of points). Still Ross is a better overall skater than Balde (who went clean) and on a par with Amodio and Ten who both had errors on two jumping passes, not unlike what happened to Ross -- but Ross is behind all three, as well as a bit behind Gachinski who has lost his jumps and is neither smooth nor expressive (despite judges levels on his elements).
For those without Kiss and Cry access, see this Cup of Nice thread in the TV Alerts forum for a link to the live stream and archived videos: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/sho...live-stream-(thru-Oct-28)-amp-archived-videos
Keegan Messing SP Cup of Nice 2012
I'll have another cup of nice, please.
^^ Thanks. I had trouble locating Keegan's performance in the archived stream.
Keegan was great in the sp at Cup of Nice. Is there a vid of his fp? He has programs this season which apparently match his flair. If he's able to continue performing with this kind of consistency and control, then he may be able to do some damage at Nationals. I wonder where this kind of performance would have rated him at SA?
However, does Keegan have a quad in his arsenal? Is he training them and just hasn't put them in his sp? Does he have one planned for his free program this season? It looks like most of the top guys and guys hoping to land in the top are trying to put the quads in their programs. However, that is difficult to accomplish because if you don't land them you lose points, and may also be thrown off enough to miss other elements (as happened to Ross in his SC sp).
Richard may be a bit ahead of the game this season (especially among the younger guys) since he worked on putting the quad out there last season during the GP with some success, despite his having blade problems at Nationals, which set him back a bit. Ross may have begun training the quad last season, but he did not attempt it in his programs last season yet skated fairly consistently and successfully with a GP bronze, U.S. Nats bronze, and 4CC bronze.
Keegan has attempted quads off and on for several years. I know he's landed them, but I couldn't tell you when or where. He has had some bad luck with back injuries, which may have prevented his including a quad in his programs consistently.
Good for Keegan, great short!
Keegan Messing has won his second consecutive Cup of Nice gold medal (224.44, 144.33 2nd in FS) and Aaron the silver (219.62, 143.67 3rd in FS). Messing fell on 4T< in his FS and Aaron popped his planned opening quad into 2S, but both successfully landed the majority of their jumps today.
I happened to catch Keegan's and Max's LPs on Livestream at the Cup of Nice. My impressions for both -
Keegan's program looks more cohesive than I ever recall any of his programs being. His spins are incredibly fast and his jumps (save the Quad) are cleaner and tighter than before. He also has great FW and seems to have worked on how to sell the program.
One of my complaints about Max was that he seemed to throw everything away in a program but the jumps. But, his WSS story seems to be at least a bit more watchable than before. He bailed on the Quads but everything else is better and more consistent than ever before.
If they both keep it up, I think they could be podium threats at Nats.
BTW, would either Keegan or Max be on a substitute list for the GP due to good Senior B results??
If Keegan's body holds up, he'll be a fantastic competitor in the next quadrenial. As of now he's slowly, but surely, improving each year. The body just needs to hold up...
Aww Ross, that was somewhat of a bad competition for him. Yes he had decent LP, but 8 place in the SP? No quad? He needs to turn it around in his next event.
Ross Miner: C
And where's Evan???????
I think Ross has two very watchable programs this year, and he skated pretty well in the LP. I wonder what was the motivation behind using Dorothy Hamill's LP music?
Ross is also more watchable than I remember. He has nice glide and jumps, and this is just a tiny point but I like his costuming - wearing a belt makes him look less 'boxy' than last year. The only critique I have is he needs to 'reach out' to the audience and involve them more in his programs. That might help his PCS in the long run.
I do not think this was at all a "bad" competition for Ross. Every competition is a learning experience. And Ross surely learned a lot, and he definitely bounced back in the fp. Ross has been training very hard and he made the effort to put the quad out there in both sp and fp. So what that his efforts re the quad did not pan out in his GP debut this season! If you don't at least start with trying to put the quad in, then it will never happen. Ross tried and he has been successful in practice, so it will come in competition. I would give Ross a B-.
As far as I'm concerned the judges under-rated Ross in the sp because several guys placed in front of Ross in the sp also made similar errors. Gachinski should have been behind Ross in the sp. Ross was likely also hurt re judges' scoring by having to skate early in the sp. Amodio and Ten were given the benefit of the doubt in the sp due to their Worlds 2012 rankings perhaps. I think Ten deserves higher PCS than Ross overall, but Amodio, not so much. Balde skated clean in the sp and deserved to be a bit ahead of Ross there, but Balde is not as polished a skater as Ross (and I don't believe Balde included a quad in his sp, did he?).
Ross has always been very "watchable." I've always found him to be entertaining and consistent, as well as resilient. He is obviously still developing all aspects of his skating, and he does need to continue working particularly on his presentation skills. But he's going in the right direction. He had good programs last season, and even better ones this season. Great Tom Dickson choreo. I like both of Ross' costumes too. I'd like to see him develop his "swashbuckling" character a bit more in his fp. But it isn't easy to manage all the technical requirements today and demonstrate spot-on artistry -- it comes with time, and slow and steady will win the race. I really love the way Mark and Peter guide their skaters. They are very professional, top-notch coaches!
I think Ross Miner knows a lot about how to connect with the audience.
One of the things I like the most about his skating is that his style is very much his own. And he's got some of the best skating skills among the U.S. men.
Now get out there land that quadruple salchow!
My earlier post was in regards to Ross's LP. Now, I did go back and watch Ross's SP from SC and found it to be quite good despite the errors. I felt that the SP really 'reached out' to the audience, but I didn't get that same impression from the LP. I will say that everything else clicks for me and you're right Vagabond, I hope he gets out there and lands the 4S. The 3x's are like clockwork thus far. That's a good start!
What did you link to? The video has been removed.
I do really enjoy watching Ross because he's an excellent skater and he always seems to be enjoying his performances. It was very courageous of him not to stop skating when his pants strap came loose at 4CCs. I'm looking forward to seeing him further develop his new fp, and also land those quads in competition.
off the hook.
now its up to go to Keegan Messing and Dornbush
I don't understand why the referee doesn't automatically stop the program when a guy's pant strap becomes loose. Just err on the safe side and stop the freaking program for the skater's safety.
Try this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vKSNhTv_5sw#t=309s
And his partner's.
^^ Ross doesn't have an on-ice partner of course. But I know what you mean. Possibly, had it happened to a male pairs skater, the referee or the skaters themselves might have stopped the performance because of the danger on pair elements. However, I suppose stopping a program is usually a last resort depending upon the circumstances involved.
Sorry -- I had too many windows open and thought we were talking about a pairs skater
Looking at the scores so far this season...it really doesn't seem out of the realms of possibility that Aaron, Messing, and Farris could be on the podium at Nationals this year. The scores they've posted and jumps they've landed thus far this season serve to back them up. Adam is still having 3a problems judging from his China SP, Ross and Jeremy aren't consistent with their quads yet, Armin didn't get great PCS at SA, Johnny is definitely rusty, and internationally Razzano is still clearly regarded as a 2nd or 3rd tier American man. I wouldn't be surprised if these 3 and Dornbush comprised the podium at Nationals, at least, if the event was to be judged fairly.
I think so far, Dornbush and Farris have been the best of the US men this season. As of now, I hope those 2 go to worlds.
I agree, but I wonder even if Farris medals at Nationals, if he will just be sent to JW again, as he'd be a favorite to win there and if he were to go to Worlds he'd be making his senior international debut there, and with spots for the Olympic team on the line, the USFS might feel better about sending a more experienced skater instead. Of course, Dornbush made his senior international debut at Worlds in 2011 and skated quite well there, but the situation was less stressful/pressure inducing in that it wasn't the season before the Olympics, there were 3 men on the team instead of 2, given the team I don't think many expected 3 spots to be maintained regardless of how well the men skated, and including quads in your programs wasn't as important to place well.
On the other hand though, I do wish he'd get sent to Worlds (or 4CC) if his placement at Nationals would warrant it, because that would indicate he'd be a contender to make the Sochi Olympic team in which case it would be beneficial to go senior before the season of the Olympics.
Probably a moot point anyways, I just more don't see the value in favoring someone like Rippon or Miner when some of these younger guys show they can score comparably, if not better, already, have displayed a greater aptitude for landing difficult jumps like quads and 3a-3t, have shown improvement and can be expected to continue to improve into the future, and have the advantage of being at a good age for both the 2014 and 2018 Olympics. Abbott is somewhat different because he has the potential to score well and be a contender for medals while none of the other men currently really have a shot, but based on the way he usually performs and scores, and considering his age and lack of a consistent quad, the outlook is somewhat similar.
I mostly feel like Abbott, Weir, Rippon, Miner are unlikely to improve at this point, with the exception of maybe Ross, who I find a little too bland to really be a medal contender ever - though others may disagree, and any jump and/or consistency issues are likely to remain, or at least not improve/be corrected dramatically, until they retire, so it sort of seems like a no brainer to invest in some of these younger guys (Farris, Messing, Aaron and even Ricky because he's been having a lot of success with his 4t recently) who can score comparably already and have more time and better odds to improve any issues they currently have (although in general they seem to have less technique issues and better jumps/technical abilities than those I mentioned before). Anyone else feel the same way?
I think Ross has the potential to score well internationally if he begins to land his quad. His strength is his consistency & he is such a smooth skater. I like the idea of Dornbush & Aaron medaling at US Nationals too...maybe this year.
To me Messing and Farris have a lot more going for them artistically than Ross at this point. Ross is consistent and a good technician but he's lacking wow or it factor IMO. Aaron is sort of the same way but he's an even stronger technician and younger so I have more hope that he can develop artistry compared to Ross. Keegan is very dynamic and engaging and Josh has the elegant, romantic vibe going for him in his skating. Idk, maybe Ross will surprise me and really step it up in terms of artistry, he is very smooth as you have said, I also wonder if my opinion of him has to do with his programs, which for the past few seasons I've found to be lacking in oomph/impact.
I finally just got around to Johnny at Finlandia. I thought he skated the best I've ever seen, obviously not considering the jumps. This program to me shows a more mature Johnny, more attack and passion, less princessy and fakey. I was prepared to be unimpressed and stop after a minute or two, but he had my attention the whole time. Hopefully he'll get more solid on his jumps, but he has a great program for sure. Whether it will win over the judges' hearts at Nats is another story, but good for him.
Uhmmm, I think U.S. fans should just wake up and smell the roses and stop over-analyzing. Yes, I agree it is often fun to predict and to discuss personal perspectives and dish about favorites. I'm guilty of overdoing that too. Still, I'm hoping to do my best to try and just root for and enjoy the skaters I love and be happy for the skaters who perform their best and medal.
I don't think anyone should be "favored" over anyone else. Let them all compete and judge them fairly on the basis of all factors that are in play, which include international experience, maturity, strength of choreography and performances, strength of all-around athleticism and artistic skills (since both qualities combined will be needed to do well on the international stage). May the best men win.
From my personal perspective, if they all perform well and have success in landing their quads, it will be a toss-up between Jeremy, Johnny, (Evan if he returns), Richard, Ross, and Adam for making the U.S. Worlds team. Sure enough that Keegan, Joshua, Armin and possibly Carriere, Aaron and Razzano will all be in the running for medals -- chiefly bronze and pewter, IMHO.
IMO, no matter how well Keegan, Joshua, Aaron, and Armin perform, I think it is unlikely that they will end up on the Worlds team simply because they don't have top senior international experience and recognition, much less reputation. The U.S. needs to send two guys to 2013 Worlds who can bring back three spots for the 2013 - 2014 season. That's why I believe the team may consist of one veteran (such as Jeremy, Johnny, Evan) and one experienced up-and-comer (such as Richard, Ross, Adam). Sure if Keegan performs both programs superbly and brings down the house, he has an outside chance of making the team (because of his performance abilities, charisma, and his improvements this season), but I doubt that Aaron would be able to make the team, and I think the consensus is that Joshua is young enough to still have time and so they probably won't risk rushing him.
ITA re your assessment of Ross. I also think Dornbush has an excellent chance of making the World team should he perform to his capabilities at Nationals. Even should Aaron perform more consistently and show artistic improvement, I doubt he would make the World team, but he definitely has a chance to compete for a lesser medal.
Again, no matter how much we speculate and over-analyze, the results will occur as they happen in real time.
I think the leading US men at this point are Dornbush, Miner and Abbott w/ Messing and Aaron waiting in the wings.
Not clear who you mean by "these 3." Also re Adam's 3axel at CoC sp, I heard his coach Rafael say to him in the kiss 'n cry: "You forgot to check..." in reference to the 3axel, which Adam appeared to fully rotate but landed two-footed and fell. However, it seemed to me that Adam's takeoff on the 3axel was much more aggressive and technically sound (and not hesitant like it was last season). Therefore, it seems he needs to fine tune technical aspects on landing, i.e., checking properly.
When Adam first debuted in seniors he was landing 3axels routinely without any problems. Perhaps his technique was not solid though, and when he later switched coaches to Orser and eventually began to lose confidence, likely his 3axel began to suffer a bit due to lack of solid technique which added to increasing loss of confidence and the problem began to snowball.
Adam seems on the right track now with Rafael Arutunian. I wish Adam lots of good luck in his CoC fp.
Separate names with a comma.