U.S. Men 2012-13 news, updates & general discussion

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Sep 16, 2012.

  1. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Yes, thanks Sylvia. I recall reading that article last year. It's interesting to take a look at it again. Many of the U.S. men mention the physical demands and also the mental challenges in training the quad, but none of them really speak specifically regarding the necessary pre-conditioning and all around physical monitoring required. (Probably they all are engaging in such warm-up, cool down and massage therapy strategies as part of their overall training in general, but it seems as if it's even more important to focus on in training quads).

    In reading the article again, I took particular note of the fact that Max Aaron and Alexander Johnson both spoke about the importance for them of perfecting their triple jump technique first: "Aaron's first step was to refine the technique of his triple Salchow so that he got into a rotating position in the air faster..." And per Johnson: "I started working on the basic technique of my triples, and when that felt solid enough to try a quad, we went for it."

    Ross and others mention the "toll on your body," and Doug Razzano cautions: "... don't overdo it and listen to your body because these are the jumps where the injuries happen." So, therefore, IMO a more structured and well-thought out training and conditioning approach should be carefully designed and implemented (taking into account physical variations and different needs and tendencies among individual athletes). As it is now, it seems to be a kind of Wild Wild West atmosphere with everyone trying stuff out and toughing it out to see what works best for them and when the showdown with the quad occurs event after event and season after season, it's just the luck of the draw as to who remains standing in the end. And even then, without a better overall strategy and physical conditioning program with orthopedic check-ups, multiple injuries and surgeries might loom either before or after retirement.

    In regard to injuries stemming from overuse of the quad, probably a lot depends upon individual athletes' physical makeup and training strategies. For example, Ilia Kulik has not seemed to have suffered many (or any?) quad-related injuries, but then he didn't compete the quad over a long extended period of time. He won Olympic gold in 1998 at the age of 20 and promptly retired.
     
  2. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Pretty much every skater at an international level (in the US and Canada at least) is working with trained exercise professionals and physiotherapists who are doing exactly that for each one of them. If a skater wants to push things beyond what is physically sensible for them, that's their choice, but I don't think you can blame a rash of injuries on their training and conditioning programs not being properly designed.
     
  3. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Timothy Goebel discussed this in his Skate Lesson Podcast interview. He spoke about doing virtually no warm-up and starting to jump and jump and jump off the bat. It was the macho thing to do, just like tennis players talked about similar things back in the day. Mets outfielder Mookie Wilson blew out his shoulder when his then-manager insisted he throw at full strength at the beginning of spring training one season.

    Like anything else, if athletes are trained from the beginning to warm up properly, do off-ice training, and to build into their jump practices, it's a habit that many or most will continue. The fluff piece on Chan's off-ice training regimen last season couldn't hurt, as athletes try to replicate successful methods and emulate systematic, professional training methods.
     
  4. BittyBug

    BittyBug Kiteless

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    I think you also need to look at the coaches, as there's a fine line between pushing your skater through a blah day, tiredness, etc. and forcing them to skate injured (i.e., "you're just faking because you're feeling lazy today," when in fact the skater may truly be injured). Examples of this abound.
     
  5. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I think that's the key. It's important to "replicate successful methods and emulate systematic, professional training" and conditioning practices. I get the sense that people within the sport have only recently begun to understand the full measure of the daunting implications of training and competing quads. I don't think any systematic conditioning and injury prevention program/ strategies have been put into place across the board yet.

    As BittyBug notes, varying coaching methods and approaches also have a huge impact on whether athletes are fully aware of and engaged in implementing smart training and conditioning strategies/ techniques.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2013
  6. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    I've always wished there was a skating equivalent of ballet barre, where each skill is warmed up before going on to do control moves, combinations and jumping, each progressing to the next. Imagine if after off-ice stretching and warm-up, every skater had to start with basic stroking, then edge work, then holding edges, then FW passages of different character, then spins -- Button said Lussi taught jumps as spins in the air -- then jumps, then programs. This is financially unviable, unless skaters are taught in groups, but I think the skaters would be more accomplished all around and the programs more watchable.
     
  7. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Sounds like a great approach, even if as beginning and ending practices at training rinks.

    Where did you read that about Lussi's training techniques? Maybe there is something that skaters today can learn from some of the better training/ coaching methods (likely some have already been passed down -- but there is not seemingly a uniform approach). In acting, different approaches and methods to working on craft might be okay, but maybe in such a physically demanding sport/ art such as figure skating, a more unified training and conditioning approach is needed.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2013
  8. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    A follow-up local Arizona article on Max Aaron: http://www.azcentral.com/sports/aze...rink-quitting-us-figure-skating-champion.html
    ETA brief article link from the Jewish Daily Forward:
    http://forward.com/articles/170407/figure-skater-max-aaron-advances-to-world-champion/
    Oops! :p
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2013
  9. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    I remember Flatt being told to do a triple right off the bat, as a way to increase confidence in the jump (or something like that). hmmm.
     
  10. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    aftershocks, you may be interested in this:

    1980 Gustave Lussi - Pioneer American Coach
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxNN2XgDLkU
     
  11. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    There was a longer piece on Lussi's teaching that I once downloaded from FS Vids, also moderated by Button (or with lots of comments by him), but I don't see it on YouTube. He and interviewees discussed his teaching philosophy, and IIRC, there was at least one scene in it in which he sat in chair, maybe in the rink opening, and coached a skater or two in spins. I seem to remember Paul Wylie -- who did train with John Curry for at least a short while, maybe during a summer? -- but I don't remember if he was interviewed or was also one of the skaters being coached.
     
  12. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    When I was skating, my lesson time was during the day so I was on the ice with a lot of elite skaters. They all started out with stroking and a warm-up routine of some sort.

    Some of them cut their warm-ups short because they were young and stupid but so do some ballet dancers. ;)
     
  13. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Some ballet dancers might cut their warm-ups short before performances, but company class is usually a must, and cutting it short or coming late can mean not getting cast, which most dancers try to avoid. In a lot of dance academies' pre-professional divisions, they won't let you into class late, unless there are official circumstances.
     
  14. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Yes, the comparisons between figure skating and ballet are very interesting. I never thought of it before, but someone recently noted in another thread that men in ballet do a lot of rotational jumping somewhat similar to the athletic feats of male skaters, although dance floors have a lot more give than frozen ice.


    Thanks so much skatesindreams for the link! I look forward to taking a look at it.
     
  15. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    Here's some more information:
    http://iceskatingresources.org/LussiSystematicJump&SpinTechniques.html
    http://skatetape.com/instructional.aspx
     
  16. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    In the old days, skaters would usually do a patch session before each freestyle session, so that got the muscles warmed up and the alignment centered over the blades.

    But they didn't do as much off-ice warmup or off-ice training in those days.

    Now it would be up to coaches to train their skaters to warm up appropriately before starting to work on the more challenging or riskier skills. I'm sure some coaches make more of a point of it than others. And because much practice is not directly supervised, there's no guarantee that kids will do what they're supposed to instead of what they're interested in. Those who are serious about their training and have coaches who are serious about instilling smart training habits are more likely to reach the higher levels and the harder jumps, but there will still be some who skimp on warmups.
     
  17. A.H.Black

    A.H.Black Well-Known Member

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    I have a special about Lussi - I think it's the one you remember - http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title/464975/Gustave-Lussi-The-Man-Who-Changed-Skating/ I recorded it from PBS. The skater in the small rink was Tracy Damigella. Button appears in it but does not narrate. Very informative and interesting.

    I remember Paul being quoted extensively after Lussi's death but he wasn't in this special. I don't know if Paul was ever coached directly by Lussi, however, his coach Mary Scotvold was coached by Lussi. Lussi's influence is in about the third generation at this point.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2013
  18. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    Tatjana Flade just tweeted: "Adam Rippon (USA) withdrawn from 4Conts due to injury. :-( Replacement Richard Dornbush."
     
  19. PinkFeathers

    PinkFeathers Active Member

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    Ricky just tweeted "Would watch the #SuperBowl right now, buuuuut I'm last minute packing for #4CC right now. Osaka here I come!" So, yep :( Poor Adam, but yay, Ricky!
     
  20. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Oh no, Adam. :( I was really looking forward to seeing Adam perform his programs this season for a final time. He seemed to be enjoying them so much at Nationals! What kind of injury has Adam sustained? Does anybody have more details? Hope he heals fully and is back training soon.

    Nice for Ricky to have a chance to compete. I hope he's feeling stronger and can have a good competition to end his season on a high note.
     
  21. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Does this mean Dornbush will be the first alternate for Worlds? I had heard that Jeremy turned down being an alternate to let his back heal then focus on training his quad, and if Rippon is injured, does that mean Dornbush is next in line or Farris? I thought the point of putting Rippon ahead on the Worlds alt list was due to Farris' assignment to JW close to Worlds, so I wonder if this means the order changes now that Rippon is injured. Anyways, good luck to Ricky! Nice chance for him to improve his SB. Too bad for Rippon though, hope he has a speedy recovery! I do wonder though what this means in terms of GP assignments for next season though, there's a chance Rippon's current SB will fall out of the top 25 by the end of the season, in which case he'd still get a GP guarantee from his top 25 WS, but it might be tough to get a 2nd unless it's in the form of a SA host pick. I guess if he were to get assigned to WTT assuming he's healed by then, that would give him another chance to get a new SB.
     
  22. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    Original list of men's alternates for 2013 Worlds:

    Alternate 1 - Jeremy Abbott
    Alternate 2 - Adam Rippon
    Alternate 3 - Joshua Farris

    Abbott reportedly declined 4CC and is still 1st alternate to Worlds, AFAIK. I believe any changes to the alternate list would have to be voted on by USFS' International Committee.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2013
  23. LilJen

    LilJen Well-Known Member

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    :wuzrobbed of seeing his fun Incredibles program. Hope it's nothing major.
     
  24. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    Sending good thoughts to Adam.
     
  25. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    Nooooo!!!!!!

    I'd love for Adam to (a) get well soon and (b) keep his current Incredibles LP into the Olympic season. He can ride that one all the way to Sochi, IMO.
     
  26. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    Alexander Johnson (7th at Nationals) and Brandon Mroz (9th) are on the entry list for the Challenge Cup in The Hague, Netherlands (Feb. 21-24) - see event thread started in the Kiss and Cry forum. This was be Johnson's first senior international since 2009 Finlandia Trophy!
     
  27. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    Dornbush replaces Rippon at Four Continents - press release: http://www.usfsa.org/Story.asp?id=48962&type=media
    "Rippon, who placed fifth at the 2013 U.S. Championships, sustained an ankle injury on Saturday. He is expected to make a full recovery."
     
  28. crzesk8dad

    crzesk8dad Active Member

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    Pinky, one competition at a time!
     
  29. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

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    Wow. I did not know this. I thought it was similar to gymnastics in that once requirements are set they are set for the next four years. That's hardly fair to the athletes who have to invest money in coaches and choreographers to keep changing things up. :/

    I too am very excited indeed at Max's prospects! Some here seem to be saying he's an artistic disaster-but he's not THAT bad. There's room to grow. I'll be rooting for him all the way! If he does great at 4CCs it will help him to establish some rep and hopefully he'll keep it going at Worlds! :)

    Ot but what became of the manager? Hope they fired his a$$! :mad:

    I read about it in another thread. I'm SO bummed! :( Sending healing vibes to ((Adam)).
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2013
  30. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    As I understand, USFS makes actual rule changes once a year (at the Governing Council in May, but they may take effect immediately, July 1, or Sept. 1).

    Any rules that affect junior and senior program content would be based on what the ISU does. ISU changes usually come out later in the spring, especially in even years when major changes get proposed and sometimes adopted at the ISU Congress. So the US may have to change rules after Governing Council to reflect the ISU rule changes.

    Both the ISU and the USFS issue clarifications throughout the year (although mainly in the summer) when ambiguous points are identified and resolved. These mostly affect technical panel calls. So there could be an official change midyear in the way that technical panels interpret specific features, specific errors, etc. That's probably what's under discussion here.