U.S. Men 2012-13 news, updates & general discussion

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Sep 16, 2012.

  1. robinhood

    robinhood Active Member

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    Max is doing a 3T/half loop/3S sequence that this year is considered as a 3 jump combo

    Comparing Max PCS to Fernandez I have to say, that while it's true that Javi needs a lot of crossovers to gain speed too, his skating is very smooth and fluid. His posture is much better than Aaron's and he's a better spinner at this point (though not being a very good one, he gets the levels and has adecuate rotation speed). And as Varbar said he's much better packaged in his programs and has an understanding of the music much greater than Aaron's at this point
     
  2. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    For those who think Farris should go to worlds. I like Farris, but no way was Farris gonna beat Max with that skate at US nationals.

    Re skating skills. Farris has a smooth glide but his edges are not deep, now if it is Brown landing 2 3As, then yes he should beat Max and go to worlds. But all the folks who are well rounded skaters just didnt get the jumps done
     
  3. mgobluegirl

    mgobluegirl Well-Known Member

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    I love Farris' skating, but he looked really slowwwwww in his FS at nationals.
     
  4. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Thank you! I didn't know that! So, they are indeed maximizing points.
     
  5. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Your assumption is faulty. The judges were not consistent.

    Now, it's certainly possible that if Aaron whips out two quadruple salchows in the Free Skate, the ISU judges will turn into a bunch of fangirls and start throwing panties high PCS marks at him, but I wouldn't count on it.
     
  6. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    More likely that if he skates a blinder in the SP that his PCS scores will magically jump in the LP if he does even decently in the LP.
     
  7. nylynnr

    nylynnr Active Member

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    That jump content leaves a myriad of ways for Jeremy to have won his fourth title, or the silver medal. Landing a clean quad in the free, as he did last season, would have set the matter to rest. With the number of quads being done at Europeans, not to mention what Patrick Chan and the Japanese skaters are capable of producing, a U.S. skater is not going to be sent to worlds on the basis of skating skills and the hope that a clean quad (as well as more jump content in the second half of a FS) will appear at the final event of the season. Great as Abbott absolutely is, it's just common sense.
     
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  8. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Well, we're talking about two ISU competitions here, Four Continents and Worlds. He isn't going to be such an unknown quantity at Worlds as he will be at Four Continents. I think that even if he skates comparably at both events, he may be treated differently at Worlds from Four Continents.

    I will say that I don't think there's any particular reason that the judges should necessarily single him out for favoritism. Theare are other skaters who can do two or even three quadruple jumps in their Free Skate but who have much better skating skills than he does.

    And, by the way, I did enjoy his Free Skate at Nationals, even if his edging and stroking left something to be desired.
     
  9. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    This is true, but again, with Farris attempting only one quad between his two programs, if he wants to have a shot at beating out guys like Max, he needs to make his programs very strategic and COP savvy, and at Nationals, the FS layout wasn't that much. He has 5 jumps in the 2nd half which is good, but again, there are just little changes that I think he could handle that would boost the BV and might have made the difference in 2nd vs 4th at Nationals. For example, his layout at nationals was:

    3a-3t
    4t
    3lz-2t
    x 3a
    x 3f (e)
    x 3lo
    x 3f-2t-2lo (e)
    x 3s

    and improvement that should still be well within his capability would be

    3a-3t
    4t
    3lz
    x 3a
    x 3lz -2t
    x 3lo
    x 3f-1/2lo-3s
    x 2a

    Or something like

    3a-3t
    4t
    3lz
    x 3a
    x 3lz-1/2lo-3lo
    x 2a
    x 3f-2t-2lo
    x 3s

    His 3a is a good jump for him, but I understand why he might not want to put both of them in the 2nd half of his program, with the second layout though, he could tinker with trying both 3a in the second half if it's something he thought he could do. And I'm not that worried about Josh anyways because his quad actually does look pretty good, and I think it's just a matter of time before it becomes a consistent jump for him, he's at least getting around on the jump which is promising. But anyways, figure skating under COP is all a numbers game and skating smart. That's why Morozov's students do so well. Josh has a good shot at making the Sochi team regardless of his staying a junior this season (which I actually think helped improve his confidence and consistency so it may be a blessing honestly), but unless the 4t becomes a money jump for him and fast, he's got to be more strategic in his program choices. Losing one spin level in the FS is fine, but getting level 2 on a step sequence and putting 2 flips in a program when there's a good chance you get edge calls on them, and putting 2 combos early in the program when one of them is a 3lz-2t he can easily do late in the program is just not how you milk COP. And we all know Josh is capable of doing a nice 4t, but for ANY guy that can not rely on the quad to pad their scores, the thinking needs to be, how can I construct my program to close the gaps on guys who can and will likely land multiple quads if I end up falling on my quad? And that's where COP-saavy layouts come into play.

    Anyways, I also agree with those who say Farris' speed could be improved. With more speed, his 4t consistent, and a more strategic layout, I think he could definitely be US champion, maybe even by next season. A more well-known choreographer could also help, Josh has nice clean long lines, good flexibility, and has become pretty handsome, and I think a top choreographer could show this off more in his programs. His Rach is lovely but doesn't do much to make him stand out, which for someone as talented as him could really make a big difference in terms of being competitive in seniors. He's so young that I'm not worried at all, but all the more reason he doesn't need to be going to Worlds this season. I don't think Max will disappoint, and I'm hoping the good Nationals result will give Josh more confidence and momentum going into JW and next season which will hopefully translate to good results. He's come a long way and is an exceptionally good skater for his age, but he is only barely 18. None of the 3 guys who placed ahead of him at Nationals were not really close to as good as him when they were the same age, and I can't help but wonder if Dornbush had wound up 4th instead of 2nd at Nats in 2011, and gone to JW instead of Worlds where he wound up placing the highest of all the men which built up expectations, if he might not be a more steady competitor now...
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  10. luenatic

    luenatic Well-Known Member

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    Impossible.

    First, 3lz-1/2lo-3lo is physically impossible. Unless a skater can land the 1/2 lo on BO edge and rotate and jump the 3lo in the different direction and different foot. Ain't gonna happen. May be you're thinking of the plain 3z/3lo?
    Second, FP can only have one 3-jump combo. 3lz-1/2lo-3lo (even if a super human can do such freaky thing) and 3f-2t-2lo in the FP will disqualify the second 3-jump combo.
     
  11. carriemarie

    carriemarie New Member

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    Seeing the event live my first impressions were Aaron first, Farris second. Max Aaron stands around a lot but he flies around the rink and although his PCS are lacking his program was electric that night. Miner was quite good and Jeremy was just frustrating to watch at the end. I have no problem with Aaron going to Worlds this year. The USFS needs to look past Sochi to 2018 for our men and set us up properly. There is very little chance a US man will be a factor in Sochi, so let's just move on and get our young guys out there. I don't think it is unrealistic for Aaron to make Fernandez-like improvements over the next couple of years. I don't find his basics bad and his speed is great. Before Nationals he was a middling Senior Man and not much of a factor, so his programs were set up with technical fire power to break into the last group, IMO. The strategy was to get him noticed on domestic soil and next year will be about international success. Is he our best hope for the next quad? I don't know, but I see him having great long term potential and its useless to send Jeremy out again and again with no real results. Personally, I like Farris and Johnson, and I wouldn't count Dornbush out just yet. I am not much of a fan of Brown and I think Armin and Messing need to really re-think their strategies. There was a lot of nice performances in men and I am going to wait to see how worlds pans out.
     
  12. luenatic

    luenatic Well-Known Member

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    I don't know what Dornbush can do to be consistent. He reminds me of Trifun Zivanovic. I think Dornbush's problems with his jump is his posture. He's so far forward before the take off. But hey, Trifun was US Silver medallist!
     
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  13. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    No 3lz-1/2lo-3lo is a jump sequence, so he could still do a 3-jump combo. 3f-1/2lo-3s counts as a 3 jump combo because the free leg doesn't touch the ice between the 3 jumps. For the 3lz-1/2lo-3lo, the free leg comes down to take off for the 3lo so it gets counted as a sequence, gets 80% of BV, and does not count as a 3 jump combo. I was more thinking the 3f-1/2lo-3s as a combo anyways, because it would really only alter the last two jumping passes, and the 3 jump combo that's a 3-3 seems to be popular for the men as of late and brings in a lot of points if done well. In this video from summer 2011, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdynmH7vpRc he does a 3f-1/2lo-3lo sequence at 02:18, which is why I suggested the 3lz-1/2lo-3lo sequence as a possibility because he has tried it in the past (and it actually looked decent there even with the stepout, and his jumps have improved a whole lot since then). He doesn't really need to change his layout anyways, it's just more if he's really trying to get higher onto the US Nationals podium next season or win JW this season with Kovtun and Yan having huge quads (and may even try 2 in the FS) and comparable PCS, tweaking a jump layout is a good way to get more points without having to obtain a brand new skill or rely so heavily on the execution of a certain difficult element.
     
  14. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Dornbush was consistent in 2010-2011, though. I think his sudden thrust into being a contender at a young age and the attention and expectations, pressure that came with it, coupled with his boot problems last season, illness/injuries this season, and focusing a lot on the quad have hurt his consistency the past two seasons. But I tend to think he can probably regain it, as he does not seem to have the nervous disposition of a classic "headcase type" that makes you wonder if they are ever going to be reliable. He's been reliable in the past and he still has all the tricks, and is pretty young so I don't worry about the injuries continually creeping up on him at least not for a few more years. It might just take a little more time for him to regroup and emerge as a strong competitor again, but once he does, he can likely do very well.
     
  15. PrincessLeppard

    PrincessLeppard Pink Bitch

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    Are they still counting sequences as only 80% of BV? :wall:
     
  16. carriecmu0503

    carriecmu0503 Member

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    delete
     
  17. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    The fall deduction was changed from relying on the judges to deduct from P/E to a formal deduction applied by the tech panel in the second season; the fall deduction appears in the 2004 SA protocols. Aside from enforcement, the change made the minimum fall penalty absolute across disciplines and segments, whereas, had the P/E deduction been applied consistently, it would have been factored differently, depending on the discipline (1 for Men's SP vs 2 for Men's FS, vs. .8 for Ladies and Pairs SP vs. 1.6 for Ladies and Pairs FS, etc.). It also meant that it could also be deducted from other components, whether or not that was applicable to the billet points, but that was the case when it was a P/E deduction.

    ETA: Based on the Technical Rules definitions of jump combinations and sequences, by definition, a series of jumps connected by .5 loop is considered a combination, where the .5 loop counts as a 1Lo and the third jump. Jump sequences are defined as having hops and other steps between the jumps, but the .5 loop no longer counts as a sequence connector.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  18. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I've always found this strange. Relatively, a fall hurts a ladies score much more so than a man's, and the penalty for low level skaters falling is much higher than when skaters fall in high level competition (1 point off a quad- no big deal, 1 point off a single loop- huge deal; low level skaters have to skate clean, seniors- eh).
     
  19. YukiNieve

    YukiNieve Active Member

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    Is Jonathan leaving the competitions? :(
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  20. Wyliefan

    Wyliefan Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like it. What a pity. :(
     
  21. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    Where did he come from? He's definitely not a splashy skater, but his LP was very elegant. I'm a sucker for anyone with good forward camel spins, and AJ has one of the better ones among the men.
     
  22. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    I mentioned earlier in this thread that Alex Johnson's 7th place finish should give him a Senior B international at least (his most recent and only senior international to date was 2009 Finlandia Trophy where he placed 10th). Johnson's bio on IN: http://web.icenetwork.com/skaters/detail.jsp?id=100072&mode=I
    He did well nationally and internationally as a junior, and has persevered despite his low placement at the past 3 Senior Nationals. He's originally from Minnesota, moved to Colorado Springs to be coached by Tom Zakrajsek, and now is coached by his choreographer, Tom Dickson.
     
  23. dinakt

    dinakt Well-Known Member

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    NOOOO!!!
    Just read the tweet.
    Wonder what Jonathan chooses to do next. Dancing, choreo, smth. completely different?
    I'll really miss him. One of the joys of last years was to see what programs Cassar came up with. He has such exquisite detail and line. If he stops skating in public, it'll be sad news for me.
     
  24. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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  25. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Thanks Sylvia. I just saw that article. I'm glad Adam is enjoying working with Rafael, and that their work together has been so productive. It will be great if Adam gets the quads in his repertoire for next season -- he seems to feel that he's right there with gaining confidence on them. Certainly, his 3-axel is looking great. I'm glad Adam will have the chance to compete at 4CCs this year, so his season is not over quite yet. :) I think Adam did a wonderful job at Nats and he may have been given more credit if, 1) he'd landed the second of his 3/3 combos in the sp; and 2) if he'd had a better GP showing this season -- but since he got a late start re adjusting to a new training environment, I'm just glad he turned things around so well by Nationals. It will be great if Adam is becoming consistent with the quad and can "bring it" next year along with his perfected 3-axel and his superlative artistry.

    Speaking of artistry, I wish Tom Z or the article writer or whoever would stop with trying to overplay the big "A" in connection with Max. Artistry is not a specialty of Tom Z's, and it's quite obvious that Max still needs to work on that aspect of his skating, so it is a bit silly for Tom Z to state that "Max and Patrick approach [the sport] in an artistic way and also a sporting way." :confused: Seriously? I do think it's wonderful that Max and Patrick are friendly and that Patrick has been helpful to Max (altho' it's easier to be helpful when you're being helpful to someone who is not a fierce rival). Max already noted in the press conference that he talks a lot to Patrick, and its fine to see that mentioned again since the article is based partly on the press conference, but I think the Patrick connection is being overplayed way too much. And, I thought Tom Z's statement: "Max is kind of a European-style men's skater..." to be very odd and historically a strange reference, since North American style skating has traditionally been considered more athletic. Has a flip-flop occurred in terms of styles? I don't think so, not just because of the quad. The sport is more global today and so for a variety of reasons there is no longer just one particular style of skating exclusively associated with certain countries or regions, IMHO.

    Ultimately, Max will be judged on his own raw talent and performances, not on his association with Patrick Chan. BTW, Tom Z saying: "They talk about ESPN..." is so laughable. I mean fine, if they both follow baseball or football, or "he-man" sports and like to check out ESPN. :p But, pardon me, the way Tom Z threw out that reference makes it sound like code speak for, "They're so macho."

    Putting that aside, I do disagree with most of the negative criticism of Max in this thread post-Nationals. While Max is not one of my favorite skaters, I am impressed with his improvement this season, and I enjoyed watching both of his programs. He may have been slightly under-marked in the sp, and a bit over-marked in his fp, so I guess it evens out somewhat. I would have been thrilled to see Jeremy or Ross win. Or even Ricky or Adam if they were both at full strength. However, I can definitely accept seeing Max edge it out. Before the competition began, I would never have imagined feeling that way. Kudos to Max! Go Jet!

    Ross might have won had he not been slightly downgraded on his quad in the sp, and had he not popped his second 3-axel in the fp. Jeremy could also have won perhaps had he focused on going clean, although it was a tough call re whether to go for the quad. In any case, even with falling on it, had Jeremy went clean the rest of the way, he had the opportunity to pull out a win. So it is what it is, and I see more positives than negatives re U.S. men. Wishing Ross and Max both all the best at 4CCs and Worlds.

    In order to be competitive in this changed environment of men's figure skating, quads are necessary. Ideally, top-notch artistry might eventually become equally important if there ever comes a day when a man who sports consistent quads can also deliver a beautiful, nuanced wonderfully choreographed performance in the manner of Alexander Johnson, and move across the ice in a way that comes close to approaching the masterful artistry of Jeremy Abbott.

    Hanyu is wonderful but he lacks artistic maturity and endurance (altho' Orser is helping him with the latter). When Patrick is on he's great, but he is not known to always be technically consistent especially early in the season. It is nice to see Patrick focusing on further developing his artistic side this season. Dai has charisma and technical skills to die for, and he's wonderful to watch, but he's not always consistent on the quad either. Javi Fernandez is stepping it up now with 3 quads in his fp, but he still needs to work on his presentation skills, as well as consistency. It was clever of Orser to give Javi the Chaplin fp in order for Javi to practice projecting more to the audience.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2013
  26. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    I wish him well.
     
  27. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Yes, I will miss seeing Jonathan Cassar at Nationals. I really hope he will have the opportunity to skate in some shows and professional competitions!

    There is a tribute thread for Jonathan that was started in The Skip.
     
  28. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    I wonder, is there anything that the U.S. men are doing (especially those who are training the quad) to try and avoid injuries (e.g., proper stretching and warming up; regular physical therapy/ massage and orthopedic check-ups to try and monitor and/or prevent possible injuries? Or, is there any real way to monitor this? Is it just a matter of training smart, and also having a strategy in practices and in competition to avoid doing too many quads over a short period of time?
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2013
  29. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    I think off-ice training helps strengthen the body a lot to try and prevent overuse injuries. This has become true of most sports in recent years just as they get more and more demanding. Stretching, lifting weights, core strengthening and flexibility exercises, thorough warm-ups and cool-downs, along with PT if said skater is fighting off an injury, can all make a big difference and make the body much less prone to injury.

    I don't know anything about landing quadruple jumps, but even just as a recreational runner, taking the time to stretch before and after running, doing some weight training, and knowing what/when to eat to help your body recover quickly and effectively makes a big, big difference in terms of keeping serious injuries at bay, and even the nagging aches and pains to specific joints/body parts. I would assume most skaters at this level have a very wholistic approach to their training - IE they don't just skate and skate throwing quads left and right until they get it consistent.
     
  30. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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