U.S. Men 2012-13 news, updates & general discussion

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Sep 16, 2012.

  1. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    Max and Alexander sound like two sensible kids who know what they want and how to get there. Hope they do well in the Nationals.
     
  2. dinakt

    dinakt Well-Known Member

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    I just watched the Midwesterns. Max A. will not get PCS Internationally; it'll be the case of Voronov, or worse. There's simply not enough in- between jumps. It's great that he'll be working with Camerlengo, but I imagine it should be not the matter of weeks, but rather months and years.
    Alex Johnson, to me, is very enjoyable, "my kind of skater". But isn't he coached by Dickson? That's it right there.
    Ross- I like him a little more every year ( and it's starting to add up to liking him quite a bit). Awesome NHK LP.
    Richard D. has great programs this year. Quite on par, IMO, with "Sherlock", if performed well.
    Jeremy, to me, is on a different plane altogether. I know skating's a sport, but Jeremy elevates it. His value extends so far beyond numbers, that I'd like him to make a National team as long as he is capable of putting a somewhat decent jump content in. His PCS will carry him as long as he is not falling apart completely. Sometimes I wonder if he should forget a quad and revert to 2009 jump content. That will not win him Gold at Worlds, but might put him higher than a flawed program with a quad.
    Farris might surprise; he has no weakness.
    If I had a wish, that would be Jeremy and Ross for Worlds; Richard and Joshua ( +1- Messing? Aaron? Brown? Rippon?) for 4CC ( if 4CC is not too close to Junior Worlds, I don't remember dates by heart).
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
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  3. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Wake up and smell the coffee (or at least look at the results). :)

    A comparison of Max Aaron's PCS (SS, TR, PE, CH, IN) at two recent competitions:

    Midwestern Sectionals:

    SP: 7.13, 5.63, 6.56, 6.38, 6.44
    FS: 7.56, 6.00, 7.06, 6.75, 6.09

    Coupe de Nice:

    SP: 7.33, 6.92, 7.08, 7.17, 7.33
    FS: 7.50, 7.08, 7.25, 7.25, 7.25

    :coffee:
     
  4. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    I beg to differ on one of your points: Jeremy was NOT "subpar" at Nationals in 2009. He won his first U.S. National title in 2009, but he did not fare well at Worlds in 2009. In 2010, he skated lights out at Nationals and inexplicably popped jumps in his sp at the Olympics where he could have been the one taking home the gold. He somewhat redeemed himself at Worlds in 2010, coming in 5th (in a reduced field). Then Jeremy had a fairly good GP season in Fall 2010, but at Nationals 2011 he simply was not being shown much respect as a front-runner. Jeremy should have easily been ahead in the sp on the basis of his artistry and skating skills, although Ryan's really fun sp to swing music was a stroke of genius that I think Jeremy was inspired by to eventually create his own fun swing sp for the 2011-2012 season.

    In his 2011 fp at Nationals, Jeremy had a great skate going and then seemed to start thinking too much. I wonder how much his confidence was affected by not coming in first in the sp. Oh well, stuff happens the way it happens, and that's a fact. Still, the debate is endless in fs. :)

    Here are Jeremy's wonderful 2009 programs at U.S. Nationals. I saw Jeremy's sp live. :) Note that Jeremy had to perform immediately after the favored Evan L in the sp, as if USFS was saying to Jeremy: Show us you can back-up your GPF win. He showed them and then some. Wish Scott's comments could be muted in the below clip. ;)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gawOg1JXgfQ Jeremy 2009 sp U.S. Nationals
    (Jeremy's sp costume was designed by Tess Johnson)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zOXG3c64fg Jeremy 2009 fp U.S. Nationals (toward the end he popped one jump and then tried to add in another triple to make up for it and had a hand down on the landing, so he showed nerves but this was still an excellent skate, in no way "subpar" or he wouldn't have won)

    Notice Tom Dickson (choreographer extraordinare) at rinkside with Jere and coach Z
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  5. merrywidow

    merrywidow Well-Known Member

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    I'm wondering if Marco is confusing Jeremy Abbott with Adam Rippon. Adam is the skater who has such difficulty landing 3 axles. Jeremy can be inconsistent with his jumps but I haven't noticed that it is his triple axles in particular.
     
  6. Sylvia

    Sylvia Bring on the JGP & Sr B comps!

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    Abbott is attempting back-to-back triple Axels in his free skate this season and hasn't landed the second one yet in his two GPs -- I assume that's what Marco meant. (Abbott has landed 3A in both his SPs this season.)
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  7. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ And how's that for Jeremy challenging himself! Still, I wonder if it was the layout and choreo of his fp that made them go with the curved entry on the quad, instead of the straight line entry.

    In any case, I think Abbott has very reliable technique on all his jumps, but he too often loses focus during a program. I think it is his mental approach that he needs to examine and refine. I would like to point out though that unfortunately this season it may be Jeremy's physical problems that are hampering him more than his competition nerves and tendency to lose focus.
     
  8. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Thanks Sylvia.
     
  9. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Love this program, but subpar for him, esp. compared to the firey GPF performance.
     
  10. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Still beg to differ. He clearly rocked his sp that year. And even though it was not the best Jeremy skated his 2009 fp, it was most certainly not "subpar" either. He was nervous before his free skate, as he is seen going through a ritual pumping up or calming down with his coach at rinkside. Wish I understood why it is Jeremy hasn't been able to conquer the "nerves" conundrum. I can't imagine what it's like to perform in front of an audience alone on the ice. I guess somewhere inside you've got to really love showing off, or have such a strong connection to the joy of movement and music that the extraneous and negative thoughts fall away.

    I understand the butterflies e.g., re speaking in front of an audience. The more comfortable you are with what you are speaking on (and with continual practice), the better it can get. However, I'm sure physical performance is a much different animal re conquering nerves -- especially on slippery ice.
     
  11. Bookslut

    Bookslut Member

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    Many folks are suggesting Farris for 4Cs and Junior Worlds. If I understand the current ISU rules, once he skates an international senior competition he cannot compete at a Junior event that year. (And once he competes in two international senior competitions he can never return to juniors.)

    Wouldn't skating in 4Cs automatically eliminate his eligibility for Junior Worlds? Or am I missing something?
     
  12. Sylvia

    Sylvia Bring on the JGP & Sr B comps!

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    ^^^ I looked up the current ISU Constitution and General Regulations online and didn't see it included/underlined as a new rule, so I don't believe that particular proposal was passed at the ISU Congress this summer? Can anyone confirm?

    ETA 2013 competition dates:
    Nationals are Jan. 20-27 in Omaha, NE
    4CC are Feb. 6-11 in Osaka, JPN
    Jr. Worlds are Feb. 25-Mar. 3 in Milan, ITA
    Worlds are Mar. 10-17 in London, CAN
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  13. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Not bad PCS scores for Max, which average mid 6s to low 7s. However, once again, it is difficult to translate judges scores across events, especially when you are dealing with regional competitions and a senior B vs GP senior international events. And even scoring at GP events should not necessarily be compared with Worlds and Olympics scoring where the fields are obviously larger and the competition more difficult.

    Since Voronov was mentioned earlier, note that he came in 3rd at CoC in a not so deep field, and 8th at NHK in a much deeper field. Voronov's PCS at his two GPs this season are somewhat lower overall than those of Aaron listed above, but IMO, fairly close. Although at his age, Max has more potential to improve and polish his presentation skills than the veteran, Voronov.

    As I mentioned, Aaron's scores are from a regional competition and a senior B event. At a major senior international, Aaron's scores will automatically be much lower, I'd bet, simply due to the newbie factor, and added to that it is hard to be clean in a senior international debut, especially at Worlds. That's why the performances of both Richard Dornbush and Ross Miner at 2011 Worlds were outstanding, albeit largely unrewarded and unheralded. That's figure skating. :judge: :COP: :argue: :drama: :wall: :fragile: :fan21:
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  14. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    The rule was discussed, and they brought in a variation of it for pairs to prevent situations like Sui/Han (competing Senior GP and then going to JW), but they didn't bring it in yet. I think it was one of those rules that was going to be brought in at a later time. The two Senior internationals, I'm sure that rule was discussed and I think it might have been brought in or be going to be brought in.
     
  15. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ So, that means Farris could still be sent to 4CCs and to JW, then.

    ITA with many of your viewpoints in your #302 post above, dinakt. Not sure though that Jeremy would have the luxury of not attempting his planned quad, at least in his fp.

    Farris is definitely remarkable and clearly an all-around skater still growing into his power and still developing his expressiveness on the ice. He's very special, but not without aspects of his skating he can continually improve upon. I'm sure he would agree. :)
     
  16. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the rule passed because Lipnitskaya talked about returning to JW this season after competing on the senior Grand Prix. Regardless, I thought the rule being tossed around said skaters lose junior eligibility after competing in TWO senior ISU competitions, so 4CC would just be one anyways. But I don't think that rule ended up getting passed, or if it did, it's not effective until next season (like how Julia was allowed to compete in senior GP this season).
     
  17. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Sort of sad none of the US guys will be skating in the (senior) GPF. Would have given us a better idea of what to expect going into Nationals, Miner and Dornbush have each had one great international competition (NHK and Finlandia respectively) and two okay ones thus far, though Dornbush's best outing came first and his subsequent showings have been spottier, while Ross appears to be on an upswing, Abbott was lackluster in both his GPs but showed improvement from SA at TEB, the collision obviously affected Rippon at CoC so current status is pretty much solely based on his NHK performances suggesting he's dealing with the same issues as usual and has yet to show obvious improvements/changes under Raffael.

    At least Brown and Farris will be at the JGPF so we'll get another chance to see how Jason's doing with the 3a and Josh with the 4t before Nationals. It's been awhile since their last JGPs and the performances both put out at those were solid but definitely had plenty of room for improvement. Cautiously optimistic for the both of them at this point.
     
  18. dinakt

    dinakt Well-Known Member

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    I am an absolute coffee addict, so that sugeestion was most welcome:)
    It is not my desire to slam anybody and I am not a pro.
    Those are decent PCS for Max from Couple de Nice; IMO, his PCS at Midwesterns are reflecting more precisely what was put on ice.
    But then , PCS is a deep mystery of the Universe.

    We also keep forgetting Armin, which is a shame. Beautiful skater, and I always end up feeling he just misses being the elite. Perhaps he could pull Ashley on us. I hope.
     
  19. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ I think he would need to "pull an Armin on us," which would be just fine, indeed. :)
     
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  20. Kelvster

    Kelvster Well-Known Member

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    totally agree with the person above who said figure skating is a sport, but Jeremy Abbott just somehow elevates it.
    abbott really is too good a skater to never win a medal at worlds at least.
    with the quad being so inconsistent this season (in competition) he may like to substitute the opening quad with a triple axel ...
    if he lands 2 triple axels, and all his other triples, then jeremy has a shot at the bronze!! (gold and silver i think are gonna go to hanyu and chan, unless others mess up big time).
     
  21. Impromptu

    Impromptu Well-Known Member

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    Finally got a chance to look at the Midwestern Sectionals video... Alexander Johnson has quietly become a beautiful skater to watch. Reminded me of Matt Savoie (which makes sense, since Savoie also did a lot of work with Tom Dickson, didn't he?).
     
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  22. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Yes, Matt's choreographer was Tom Dickson, and Kathy Johnson also did some dance training work with him, etc.; Linda Branan was Matt's primary coach and he always remained loyal to her. :)


    ETA:
    Of course, Tom Dickson choreographed Ross Miner's fp this season, and Dickson's wife, Catarina Lindgren choreographed Ross's sp.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  23. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    And if he made it to worlds this season, he will have to skate very, very early in the short program and that will hurt his GOE and PCS. If US is shooting to have a 3rd spot in Sochi, every single point counts.
     
  24. dinakt

    dinakt Well-Known Member

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    ... and it shows Ross to great advantage. I rewatched Miner's LP a few times, seeing more care to detail every time. Dickson is brilliant.
    SP can work quite well, too; but it requires more "skating into".
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  25. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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  26. luenatic

    luenatic Well-Known Member

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    No wonder I thought of Matt when I saw Ross's FP. I kept telling myself, Ross skated a lot like Matt!
     
  27. dinakt

    dinakt Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. It is an excellent article, and I missed it.
    LOL at Dickson calling Ross's loops "very Picasso"
    When I was a teen, Sabatini's "Captain Blood" was one of my favorite noves; I read it dozens of times, attracted, no doubt, by that juvenile swashbuckling Dickson wanted to avoid.
     
  28. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Yes, the IN article had appeared so early in the summer, I'd nearly forgotten having read it before. I found Dickson's comments quite fascinating and enlightening about Ross being "incredibly powerful," and that they wanted to "take his power and shade it ... to soften his movement and make it more regal, so his power becomes his strength." The proof is in the pudding, as one of the BBC commentators said in a somewhat related context. ;)

    I've never read Captain Blood, but I can see how the title might be irresistible for a teenager. :) I have seen a few old Errol Flynn movies. Yes, there is something "regal" and "romantic" about Ross' free skate. I don't happen to see that close of a facial resemblance between him and Flynn (perhaps slightly). Moreso perhaps they share a similar kind of romantic adventurousness and joie de vivre, and now of course, starring roles as Captain Blood. :D

    Here are links to compare their "resemblance":

    http://www.inlikeflynn.com/flynn.html (scroll down for more Flynn photos when the site opens fully)

    http://www.rossminer.net/


    I don't really see too much similarity in Matt's and Ross' styles of skating. But yeah, a defining common denominator is Dickson's choreo, in that Dickson has a genius for seeing what skaters have to offer and helping them to bring out their best qualities on the ice.


    ETA:

    Ross' Luck Be A Lady exhibition at 0:20:31 in this youtube NHK Gala video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxfCQD72ztI

    Ross does a fine job with this Sinatra standard; he could play it up more but he's growing quite nicely into his on-ice style.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  29. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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  30. Sylvia

    Sylvia Bring on the JGP & Sr B comps!

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    Here's a nice quote by Christina Gao from her GPF preview article published on IceNetwork today:
    Quotes by/updates from Joshua Farris and Jason Brown before the JGP Final are posted in their Uber thread in the Trash Can: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/sho...Uber-Thread!&p=3761593&viewfull=1#post3761593
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012