U.S. Ladies [#9]: Battle to/in Boston

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Sylvia, Nov 12, 2013.

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  1. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    This. Faking an illness is a cowardly tactic and Ashley has shown time and again that she is no coward.
  2. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Active Member

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    I certainly hope their experience, maturity and overall skating quality are reflected in their PCS. Rooting for the old gals (relatively speaking ;) )
  3. rosewood

    rosewood Well-Known Member

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    I love Ash being very brave to make this sport more popular in US. Hope she can manage to deal with those sticky media people such as coughHersh and coughcoughTSL. ;) Wish the best for her at GPF.:cheer2:
  4. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand why TSL thinks that if Ashley loses to some of the Russian babies at the GPF that she'll suddenly get the short shrift from the judges. How does that make sense? One bad competition doesn't kill your career. Mao had an awful fall grand prix season in 2009-2010 (with other skaters beating her left and right) and it certainly didn't hurt her scores in Vancouver...
  5. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Let's hope so and that Julia doesn't get another 33 for PCS in the SP...
  6. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    I agree, this isn't 6.0 anymore. Losing to Mao in the fall of 2005 didn't hurt Slutskaya at the 2006 Olympics. Her PCS in the SP were higher than her PCS in the 2005 Worlds SP (30.34 to 30.49).
  7. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    Trying to stay relevant, the Hersh method.
  8. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Maybe because the Olympics are going to be in Russia? As we saw at the COR the judges can't wait for a excuse to prop up the scores of the Russian skaters. Losing to the Russian girls in the GPF gives them a excuse to keep Ashley down in Sochi.
  9. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    I doubt that would happen though... Besides, there are only 2 ladies spots for the Russians this year, and we don't even know who's going to be on that team since any 5 of them could be on it.

    On a side note, it is interesting that Mao got nearly a 35 for PCS in the SP at the GPF while Ashley only got a 32. I would have expected closer to a 33 considering Adelina got a 31.
  10. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Even in the 2001-2002 season, Sarah Hughes beat Michelle in Skate Canada, and it obviously didn't affect Michelle's marks in the SP at the Olympics (even with the 3 flip)... If anything Sarah was hammered...
  11. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    Experience should not be relevant to PCS. It shouldn't matter how long a skater has been skating or at that level, only how good they are in a particular performance, and when "new" or young or unknown skaters are held down because they aren't known to the judges then that's one of the biggest travesties of judging. Likewise, "maturity" per se is not a judging criterion and suggesting that it should be reflected to me shows unfair bias against those who are or look young. (There might be legitimate aspects of what you are considering under "maturity" that really should be considered under PCS, and that perhaps older and more experienced skaters tend to be better at, but there are certain ways in which very young or small skaters aren't going to appear as "mature" no matter how good they are in legitimate areas of PCS, so phrasing it as "maturity" per se as being desirable is a pet peeve of mine). Sometimes youthful enthusiasm and exuberance are described as "immature" but can be very positive in terms of both enjoyment and some areas of PCS, like personality and emotional involvement with the program.
  12. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't surprise me. Both Ashley and Adelina skated really well. I actually would have had them tied in PCS based on their performances today, but a one point difference is fine because over five categories it is less than .25.
  13. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Well I just watched Ashley's SP and I think that's the first I ever saw the score tracker increase after a program ended instead of decreasing 2 points like it always seems to do. Ashley seemed disappointed with her scores though... I think she said to Rafael that she thought her score would be higher.

    Actually it seemed like most of the girls were disappointed with their scores. Particularly Julia too.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
  14. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Also, :eek: at Polina's and Angela's scores in the SP at the JGPF. Like I said, they're not a threat to go to the Olympics.
  15. Flying Camel

    Flying Camel Member

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    You got that right. They seem to be falling in line with the rest of the American girls. Scared to death!
  16. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Also what is with all the Russian babies being so bendy and stretchy? It's scary how similar they are to one another from jump technique to overall packaging to skating skills...
  17. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    I think they're fine, but their time is not now. It will be in 2018.
  18. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    I think they're fine, but their time is not now. It will be in 2018. Also, is it just me or does it look like Angela's grown/become more womanly (in terms of her figure).
  19. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Active Member

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    Let me clarify. Experience, maturity, quality...those are buzzwords I can use to get my idea across without having to take the time to go into detail or having to actually explain anything :p. Let me rephrase to reflect what I meant by that:

    I certainly hope that Mao's soft knees, elegance from her toes to her fingertips, understated passion, soulful musical interpretation, elegant and classic spin positions, +3 holy cow footwork, and ability to emote to an audience are reflected in her scores. Moreover, I certainly hope that Ashley's refined skating skills, complete control of her upper body movement, classic elegant posture, new-found facial expression, sense of conveying emotion, the excitement of her fiery attack and increased technical content, her rejuvenated footwork sequences, and complete package of all of the above are reflected in her scores. (And unfortunately last night I thought they were a little stingy with the PCS)

    :)
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  20. Chris_E

    Chris_E Active Member

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    Well said regarding both skaters. Both skaters are clearly ahead of the rest of the pack in many ways and that should have reflected more. I think Ashley should have hit that 70 mark this time but I suspect given she skated 2 skaters before Mao that the judges were holding back marks in case she didn't skate to form.

    Oh well, hopefully they both skate well in the long program and distance themselves from the rest.
  21. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    I think she would have broken 70 if they gave her a level 4 for her step sequence like she's been getting all season.... In general, almost all the skaters seemed a little disappointed with their marks after their SP. Ashley and Julia in particular. Julia had a bitc* face going on there in the kiss and cry. Guess the judges shouldn't have pampered her so much at TEB.
  22. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Wang has always had a more sturdy, womanly build compared to her competition in juniors. She had her growth spurt at an earlier age than most ladies skaters and didn't grow very tall because of it. People have said she resembles Caroline Zhang build-wise for a couple years now, though Angela is a good few inches shorter and less busty which likely helps her jumps. I don't notice a change in her build this season, and honestly I think her issues are primarily mental unfortunately. She has good technique and the jumps seem easy for her when she hits them. She may not have the ideal build for figure skating, but she's short, quite strong and muscular, and far from heavy at all so I don't think her body type is really hurting her jumping ability. She just seems to lack confidence and headcase in competitions. Her technique could maybe be improved a little bit but it's pretty solid, and the fact that she can nail 3lz-3ts easily one day and fall on everything the next speaks to a mental or training issue rather than a technique or physical one IMO
  23. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Did you mean the Russian GP?

    Well the Russian Fed could only politik so much at each competition. Watching Sot and Lip back to back you will realize how much Sot has better elements and has the better overall package. Besides her insane flexibility, nothing about Lip's skating really stands out. Having said that, I am sure her consistency will allow her to make up ground in the free.

    Also, I think Sot's more conservative jump strategy recently is a smart plan and will work wonders for her. She is showing clean programs and will be building good momentum heading into Nationals and Euros / Sochi.

    I suspect whoever that places better between Sot and Lip at GPF and Euros will receive a huge GOE and PCS surge at Sochi.
  24. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    :fragile: ITA, what a way to lay flat dead and have the Russian girls walk on to victory. They did not make a case to go to Sochi, to say the least.

    On the other hand, think of Worlds last year and the Sochi qualifications. Wagner/Gold were really a long shot to qualify 3 spots, especially given Golds inconsistency and inexperience. Both Sot and Tuk were more experienced and they had a 3rd lady in Leonova who could help if either imploded (not to mention she was the reigning silver medalist). As the Sochi qualifier, it was by far the most important competition of this quad , and US ladies delivered against really unlikely odds, while Russian ladies really blew it when the stakes could not be higher. Ice is slippery.
  25. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Excerpt from USFS' GPF/JGPF Day 2 recap: http://skatingmagazineblog.com/2013/12/06/2013-grand-prix-final-junior-grand-prix-final-day-2-recap/
    Edmunds' FS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAOa6-TMTcw
  26. Stephanie

    Stephanie Well-Known Member

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    Edmunds had an excellent free skate, with no downgrades, and if she can combine a skate like that with a clean short then I think she still has a shot Sochi if the big names (Zawadzki, Gao, Nagasu) falter.
  27. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that was lovely. I hope she at least gets to go to 4CC. Do we know if she's guaranteed any Senior GP spots next year or is it too soon?
  28. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    ... Well that was an uneventful splatful GPF performance from everyone excluding Julia... Ashley's lutz is worrisome. It's been quite wonky all season. She barely got off the ice on the lutz in her LP. And that jump layout is not working for her. Putting a three jump combo as the last jump element of your program is way too risky and it's not really working for Ashley. I hope they rework some of these elements before Nationals. Maybe her team is working to have Ashley peak around the Olympics and Nationals?

    I'm also surprised Mao is going for 2 triple axels in the long...
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
  29. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    I will watch the telecast tomorrow. But, looking at the protocols, I don't think anyone is very happy including Julia who was the only one to stay on her feet but below her best. Adelina was probably the most unhappy - what a disaster. With Russia having only 2 spots and Russian Nationals in just a few weeks, I think Adelina's performance in the LP may have put spot #2 back into play. A rejuvenated Tuktamysheva might get it.

    AW - I was thinking the same thing about the Lutz: When she lands it, it looks really 'wild'. I wonder if she's working w/ RA on a proper outside edge in practice and it's throwing off her rhythm (?).

    Regarding the 3 jump combo, I think an alternative is to put it on the 2d 3loop where she has a little more energy. I was going to say put it on the 3(f)lutz which is an even earlier jumping pass and she'd still get a bonus, but it seems to be a jump in progress for whatever reason and that's probably not a good idea! A final thought would be to put it on the 1st 2x, but then we would lose the beautiful split jump out of the 2x, and she's lose a bonus but still might make it up w/ a Rippon toe like in her LP from the last 2 seasons.

    Oh well, I think she said she just wanted a medal here and she got that. But, a big opportunity was there for her to grab the silver. It would've solidified her position as a chief contender for the Bronze in Sochi, but I think it's now just a horse race among herself, whoever the Russian baby du jour in February will be, and Kostner (who I have a hunch will markedly improve in the next month or two).

    I hope she works it out. She has plenty of time between now and Nationals, which should be less stress-laden for her than last year w/ the US having 3 spots and she's already defended the title once and has proven herself over and over to the USFSA. I think Nationals should be about skating for herself and working out the kinks looking forward to Sochi, not necessarily competing w/ the other US ladies including Gracie Gold. She has a spot in the top #3 w/ a subpar skate regardless, so she should just skate for herself w/ an eye on a bigger goal.

    Finally, I hope this isn't becoming last season where she began to unravel a little in the LP at the GPF and didn't regain her form until WTT. :(
  30. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    I actually think nationals will be tough for Ashley as a defending champ yet again. BUT, she only needs top 3, no need to repeat the win to go
  31. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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    ^ True, but Gold has yet to put two clean programs together, and supposedly she is changing her SP. Wagner had some trouble at the GPF (not as bad as last year, though), but I think she can still successfully defend her national title. World's aside, she has been consistently bringing home the hardware since her 2012 Nat's win. Despite all the hype, Gold has been hit-and-miss since her Sr. debut.

    I really admire Wagner. She called herself the "Almost Girl" and even though she admittedly isn't the best at any one thing, she successfully worked her a$$ off to become more than just the bronze-winning also-ran that she was a few years ago.
  32. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    I might get flamed for this because there are some Michelle ubers on these boards, but Ashley is similar to Michelle. Jump and spin wise, nothing will blow your socks off (except Ashley's loop), but they're consistent and play the game well. I think Ashley will defend her National title again this year. The judges will give her a big PCS margin and none of the other girls will chase that.
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  33. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Well, Ashley hasn't peaked at all this season, so I don't think that'll happen. Ashley peaked way too early last season during the GP and put in two nearly flawless LPs on the GP. This year, she hasn't really put in a phenomenal LP performance.

    I was thinking that maybe she should move the loop to where the double axel is and do a falling leap out of that. She could move the 2 axel to where the triple loop is in the program and add the 3 jump combo there. She won't lose much at all by doing that and it'll be a safer jump layout.

    So something like this:

    3flip-3toe
    3loop (falling leap out of it)
    3 sal
    ---half way point
    3 loop-2axel
    3lutz
    2axel-2toe-2loop (or toe)--I hope she does a loop. She loses so much speed when she does two double toes.
    3 flip
  34. Dilng

    Dilng Well-Known Member

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    I'm not a Michelle uber, but I totally disagree. Michelle was very musical and had wonderful arms. She had a lot of programs that were really special and quite honestly Ashley hasn't had any program that has been special. She does work hard, but she doesn't have Michelle's musicality or presence on the ice. Her programs just aren't memorable. I still love Michelle's Song of the Black Swan. Even when she made mistakes she was stunning when she skated that program. :swoon:
  35. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    But I like the flip and 2 loops at the back end for bonus points. She did it last year, so I'm hopeful it's just a matter of finding a place for the 3 jump combo
  36. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    I meant technically, not artistically. Jumping wise and spin wise the two don't stand out much and just do the two good enough, but they're nothing spectacular.
  37. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Well, she would only lose about two tenths for putting the loop in the first half and putting the 2 axel in the second half as a three jump combo. I wouldn't put the 3 jump combo on the second triple loop.

    Ashley has done her three jump combo before on the triple loop, and it kills her GOE on that jump because she lands the two double toes at the end with almost no flow coming out. It would be better to put the 3 jump combo with the double axel and move it to the second half.

    Fingers crossed that Ashley reads this and takes this suggestion!!!
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
  38. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    That layout actually gets her a teeny bit less than her current layout (45.19 to 45.01).

    I wish she'd learned 2a-1/2loop-3sal. The sal is such a secure jump for her, and it earns more points than most 3 jump combos that she could do. It would also allow her to replace the 3loop2a with a presumably more secure 3loop2t.

    I would keep the current layout except for putting the 3loop2toe as the 3rd jumping pass and putting the 2a-1/2l-3sal in place of the 3loop-2a series. Then she would finish with 3 solo triples, which would be easier. This layout would get her 45.94. It's not a huge gain, but - if the 1/2loop -3sal was a possibility - it would be easier.
  39. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Yep, that layout would only be about 2 tenths less. It would be easier to execute and possibly better for her GOE wise, so she could easily make up for the 2 tenth loss.

    The judges also love her 3loop-2axel more than her 3 loop-2toe. Makes more sense to go for the 3loop-2axel (extra 0.5 and better GOE). I think the 2a-1/2loop-3sal is too risky, considering the double axel is not one of Ashley's stronger jumps.
  40. Blondie12

    Blondie12 New Member

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    I would add Sam and Courtney to that list. There is no way the US, with its depth, will send someone who did not even skate on the Senior Circuit this year. Junior programs are different than senior ones, and many do not successfully make the jump to the senior level (like Caroline). The timing is different and many do not do as well their first season as a senior bc there are adjustments to be made. Gracie, a few years ago, did well on the Junior Circuit and they did not even send her to worlds that year, even though the senior alternatives were not that great and there was much talk of sending her to worlds on this board. USFG does not have a history of sending people from the Junior Circuit to senior events that same season especially worlds or Olympics. Edmunds may be sent to 4CC and maybe even worlds if some of the Olympics ladies opt out of worlds. But I doubt she will be sent to the Olympics, unless there is a major major major splatfest of at least 5 ladies at nationals. Reputation matters in this sport, especially w PCS and ladies on the Junior Circuit have not developed that reputation. At least one of the 5 ladies will be upheld w PCS even if they make technical errors, so I think any skater on the Junior Circuit has virtually no chance at Olympics. Edmund for 2018 maybe.

    In fact that may be part of the problem w USFS. Russia gets their ladies out on the Grand Prix as soon as they are age eligible. We don't all the time. If USFG was seriously considering Edmunds for Olympics, she would have been on the Senior Circuit. The level of pressure is totally different. No country will send someone who has no intl senior experience to have their senior intl debut be the Olympics. Maybe minor countries do but none of the major countries have to do that. Like there is not even talk of Russia sending any of the ladies from the GPF Junior to Sochi. Even though they have only 2 spots, those ladies are not even in the conversation about whether Russia will send them- and all three finished above Edmunds.

    I don't think any of the medalists from the Junior Grand Prix final from any country are even in the conversation about being sent to the Olympics.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
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