U.S. Ladies [#9]: Battle to/in Boston

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Sylvia, Nov 12, 2013.

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  1. bronwynsings

    bronwynsings Active Member

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    Pausing the debate to add that we are going to need a new thread soon... Any titles selections? (For everyone's sake and to avoid huge arguments, let's stay away from thread titles about this controversy)
     
  2. Tak

    Tak Well-Known Member

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    Can skaters enter any competition they want or do they have to be assigned to them? I've asked this before about Polina. It seems in her case, she had to be assigned and she wasnt.

    This is what is inherently unfair and discriminatory about this system. You need to stock up "selection points" by competing in certain competitions. If you're not assigned to those competitions, you cant compete in them, so no selection points for you. Because you have no selection points, you dont make the Worlds/Olympic team. This is a perfect Catch-22 situation.

    Or was Polina just a fluke? Can skaters normally enter any competition they want to?
     
  3. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    No, you cannot just enter any of the selection criteria competitions, but if a skater is offered one, they do have the option to turn it down. So I'm wondering if any did, not realizing it would affect their chances because this year there was going to be a selection committee, not just nationals.
     
  4. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    If Stephanie thinks it's sad, that's her right to feel that way. For the record, I found it sad too. It's sad that Agnes had an absentee father and then to lose him to an alcohol/drug overdose is really sad. It's sad when anyone is robbed of a parent. It's also sad that a teenager viewed skating as her job and that she also put so much pressure on herself to try to make money for her family. It's sad that she might not have enough money to continue skating. Just because others have it worse doesn't make someone else's hardships irrelevant.
     
  5. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Well didn't seem like Agnes did... Besides, didn't Amanda Dobbs pretty much retire?
     
  6. Spun Silver

    Spun Silver Well-Known Member

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    Sheesh, how unfeeling. Just because many skater families sacrifice does not take away from the sacrifices of Agnes's family, and I have a feeling it could be worse for the latter because as blue collar workers and immigrants they probably had less understanding of what they were signing up for and found it harder to network with others in the skating community. You try cleaning houses, being a nanny or caring for homebound people for ten hours a day in order to pay for a skating dress. It makes me feel even worse for Agnes. She has all the goods, but no wonder she doesnt look free and joyful on the ice with so much expectation resting on her. Maybe that is true of a lot of the skaters we criticize for not looking happier, whether Yu Na, Mao or Mirai. Expectations of financial rewards or of national glory -- I'm sure they are both hard to bear.
     
  7. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Well, what if they do work hard and do the best of the abilities but still make mistakes that cost them higher placements and then they knock it out of the park at Nationals? I mean I know you're statement is about Mirai, but this can happen again in the future to a skater who won't be such an easy target to rationalize a controversial decision like this. I just think it's interesting that the new approach in defending the USFS decision is to demonize Mirai in a way to make her sound like some sort of half-assed brat. I guess all the Polina attackers took a break today.
     
  8. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    You know for a fact that Mirai gave it her all for the last 2 seasons and not just for the last few months? Because when Mirai goes all out, it usually shows up in her placements.

    Mirai has been touted as a very talented skater and that she is--are you saying these recent placements are the best she can do? No way.
     
  9. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I am just curious about your reasoning supporting the USFS being that Mirai doesn't deserve to go because she was just too lazy and only decided to train at the last minute. Again, I know you're talking about Mirai. My point is that with the USFS arbitrarily picking which skater gets to benefit from the hardly-invoked criteria (this is in all probability the first time it has been invoked for a skater who competed a full competition) another skater, who may be perceived to be much more harder working and disciplined, can be passed over for a favorite of the USFS despite handily and convincingly out skating and out placing the favored skater.

    I know the criteria is written on paper, but you can't ignore that history made it seem that the USFS has always gone with the top finishers and you can't really think that it was well-known beforehand that the USFS would do something like this unlike in Japan when it has happened often. I think there's something to be said about practice. At least in the law, state action and practice plays a big role despite what a regulation might say on paper.
     
  10. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    Mirai has not delivered until now. No significant placements and certainly no wins. That's not arbitrary, these are the facts. If Wagner, who supposedly is ever-so-untalented vis-a-vis Mirai, could raise herself up so much, why couldn't Mirai? Not for the lack of natural talent.
     
  11. dorianhotel

    dorianhotel Active Member

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    I think in reality Wagner being named to the team (whether it was Mirai or Polina who was bumped) is a victory for the USFSA's new stated protocals which have been in place for years. There are past instances they probably should have used them- Abbott in 2011, Weir in 2009 (now that I know they had a 3rd man which I didnt know when I was mocking the suggestion previously), perhaps Inoue & Baldwin or even Brubaker in 2010. However sometimes it is like giving out your first 6.0 as a judge, losing your virginity in a sense. So they held off on it for years, bypassing several good opportunities to use it in the process. The USFSA had these new more flexible policies in place for awhile now though, and using it was long overdue. It is actually a good thing such an extreme case came along they had to use it. Of course some whiners will cry and pout, some of them over the top Nagasu ubers, and others who want the USFSA to live with their outdated old procedures forever; but the fact is the USFSA has finally used their years ago newly implemented "not only Nationals counts" policy, and now that they have broken the ice it will make it easier to use it when appropriate in the future.
     
  12. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think they should be more explicit about how and when they implement it (as opposed to just saying they consider prior competitions) and use it consistently throughout all the disciplines, and explain their decision. I think if they're going to do that, they need to make it so that it's not seen as unseemly as it is now, and it will be for the benefit of the competitors. The point of IJS was to enlighten competitors of things they needed to work on in order to score better. I don't see why we shouldn't advocate for something similar for selection criteria as well. I am not advocating for one system or the other, but I do want a lot more transparency and have explanations given in order to ease the feeling of unfairness or injustice.
     
  13. dorianhotel

    dorianhotel Active Member

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    They probably should make it more explicit, but where the confusion is with anyone in this case (other than the USFSA not doing something like this before now, which is more their own fault than anything else) is the only thing that confuses me. Wagner's results in the last 2-3 years are not a bit better than Nagasu or newcomer Edmunds. They are a stratosphere better in that span. It isnt like she was 10th at Nationals, she was 4th. Why this would be a case extreme enough to justify an aleration of Nationals results seems very obvious to me, and not something that should need to be spelt out in words IMO.
     
  14. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think the underlying disagreement may stem from whether people really believe Wagner's results were deserving of this newly invoked consideration since there may have been stronger cases in the past where the USFS could have invoked this consideration but did not. What makes the disagreement even more wild is that they chose not to invoke it in another discipline at the same Nationals…and then chose to invoke it for one competition but not another, which is incredibly odd. Personally, my biggest issue is this sort of sneak attack of invocation that overturns history without adequate warning (lack of practice to set a strong precedent) and the inconsistency in which it was invoked within the same competition.

    Even if this system is the best one in most people's minds, it should still be practiced consistently and fairly.
     
  15. dorianhotel

    dorianhotel Active Member

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    Yet the examples people have given thus far I dont believe are stronger cases. Abbott in 2011 certainly isnt based on his skating that season. Weir in 2009 isnt since there were 2 other men (Abbott and Lysacek) both atleast as strong as him to begin with (vs Wagner who was by far the best U.S lady, Gold included, since fall of 2010) who already had securely made the team already, and the only possability left was someone who finished 2nd to his 5th at Nationals. I still would have had Abbott in 2011 and Weir in 2009 making the team instead of Miner and Mroz myself. Still I have yet to here someone give an example of a better case since the new selection procedures that talked about considering things besides Nationals came into play. This is the best one so far, and the USFSA finally got the guts to do the right thing they should have done on a few occasions past.

    BTW we are now talking about times before the new selection procedures started, so it isnt even a fair comparision anyway, but for those who chant things like "Ashley doesnt even have a World medal" can you think of an instance a reigning World medalist was ever left off a U.S World or Olympic team anyway? So this whole there are much stronger cases than Ashley I dont see, let alone in recent times.
     
  16. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    There's a new U.S. Ladies thread here. :)
     
  17. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Consistency across the season should be rewarded. I mean, where was Mroz internationally since 2009 Nationals? And Miner or Zawadzki for that matter? Miner and Zawadzki kept skating solidly enough at Nationals in the past 3 seasons but their international results don't nearly shine as much. Classic example of skaters pacing to peak at Nationals and nothing else. They had nothing to show at the beginning of the season and nothing else left to show at Worlds. This can't really be good for USFS in selecting their world teams.

    In 2012, Wagner had a relatively slow GP season but built at Nationals, 4CCs, Worlds and WTT.
    In 2013, Wagner had a strong GP season but backed down at GPF and Nationals but somewhat rebounded at Worlds and WTT.
    In 2014 so far, Wagner had a strong GP season including GPF (one fall, but got her 3/3s and medaled) but backed down at Nationals. Her season could only get better from here if you would like to go by trend.
     
  18. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Although I don't think I disagree with you (as long as it was executed fairly as discussed earlier), I do think you can always find many examples of skaters who have done well most of the season only to underperform at Worlds, and you can find examples of skaters having a slow start only to do well at the bigger competitions.
     
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