U.S. Ladies [#9]: Battle to/in Boston

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Sylvia, Nov 12, 2013.

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  1. jiejie

    jiejie Active Member

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    Ashley has nowhere close to Mirai's litany of issues, particularly the issues that occur in the space between one's ears. And I have faith that Arutunian (and Nicks) will smack any such underrotation nonsense out of Ashley over the next couple of months. Now getting her to 100% stop two-footing when under stress might be another kettle of fish entirely :D
     
  2. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    The showings of US ladies are a bit disappointing. 3 medals so far, and rather disappointing showing so far for Zhang, Agnes, Mirai and now Gao in Paris.
    Back when the Japanese ladies were the deepest pool of ladies, US ladies end up being behind them and Kim. Now they are behind the Russian ladies. Perhaps that has something to do with the fact that their ladies who aren't ready are pulled (or they withdrew), while US ladies, once assigned, keep their assignments no matter what.

    et: I originally mentioned 8 ladies who could place top 6 in the short program at nationals and didn't mention Cesario because of her sp potential. But if she could find a way to keep improing that sp to the point it can place top 6, she has a good shot. She has a good head on her shoulders and is pretty steady
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2013
  3. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

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    Cesario's LP was great; wonderful accents, attitude, interpretation and highlights.. Her SP though seems a bit rough around the edges and needing more polish.. I'm sure Geldermann knows it and will make the necessary changes. The combo in the SP needs to be modified perhaps since the second loop keeps getting dinged. Has Sam ever gotten full credit for her loop-loop?
     
  4. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    True. It's just a little surprising that the two foots and underrotations have come under Artunian's tutelage (whereas they almost completely disappeared under Nicks). I guess she's being more strategically about peaking at the right time this season.
     
  5. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    I think it may have more to do with the stress level. Ashley is now going for a 3/3 in both programs and she two footed the first half (flip) in the long at TEB. I think she just need a bit more practice time now that she has tried in competition a few times. She knows what it feels like live, she can now go back and work on it some more.
     
  6. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    If you're trying to say that all the US ladies are behind all the Russian ladies, I would disagree. Ashley w/ mistakes kept Sotnikova at bay this weekend, and the no. 1 Russian lady is Lipnitskaya who squeaky clean is only a few points ahead of Ashley w/ mistakes.

    Gracie w/ mistakes isn't far off either of them, either. Granted, she needs to get her head together but she's done this before.
     
  7. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    The first thought that occurred to me was the introduction of the 3/3 as well. I hope Ashley and her team sort this out. Mr. Nicks is still her coach, btw.
     
  8. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    They are behind thw Russians in terms of gp successes and depth; I am not talking about individuals

    I just think the team in general is underperforming, far below what they cando; that is all.
     
  9. Flying Camel

    Flying Camel Member

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    They sure have. What is the issue?Don't they practice these jumps everyday? Most of them can't even land a couple of triple jumps under pressure. It's not even worth sending most of them to the competition. They should just send in a video of the one good triple and stay home! USFSA need to do something starting next season.
     
  10. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    I will agree w/ you on this point - depth and underperforming in general. The phrasing in your initial post wasn't clear to me, but I see what you're saying now. It's like Ashley and to some extent, Gracie are carrying the weight of the USA. Russia has some wonderful talent to back up Lipnitskaya and now Sotnikova such as Radionova, Pogorilaya, and even Tukktymasheva and are delivering big scores. The US team backing up GG and AW are a little too undependable by virtue of being inconsistent (Gao, Nagasu, Zawadzki) or too 'green' (Cesario, Hicks) or MIA (Czisny). The 1st three just do not hold it together very well.
     
  11. bek

    bek Guest

    I don't think so. I don't think a lot of the US girls on the GP are all that great other than Wagner and Gold.

    In general I suspect if Adelina and Julia continue to skate well, their PCS will rise, and maybe even above Ashleys.

    Especially Sotnikova, I'm not convinced Ashley's the better skater. I think right now the Russians have way more depth and options. And those options are going to force their kids to get better.. If they want a prayer of leaving Russia...I suspect one of the issues with Mirai was she was anointed so quickly as the great hope that she skated a bit. In Russia, those girls have so much competition its due or die. The good competitors are going to come out.

    In someways I find the depth sad too. Sad that some of those young girls won't make it out of Russia.
     
  12. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    Looking at their record, Adelina is likely to falter again, especially in a high pressure situation like say, the Olympics at home. Julia much less so. *knocks on wood*
     
  13. bek

    bek Guest

    Well obviously Adelina's more like to falter. However, I will say this Julia's jumps lasting long term always has me a bit nervous. They are tiny, tiny things. I suspect they are way easier to control but it might be harder if she gets taller or a little bigger and she has to jump higher.

    Adelina's huge jumps though have always made me less nervous in that regard.
     
  14. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    Adelina rarely lands her huge jumps in a program. That doesn't make you nervous?
     
  15. bek

    bek Guest

    It does, but I'm concerned about Julia keeping/rotating hers long term.
     
  16. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    Don't be before it happens.
     
  17. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    Agnes, Mirai and Gao all medalled last year, and also they landed more jumps.
    It's as if half of the ladies on the GP don't want to go to Sochi or something. :(

    I didn't expect Cesario to medal on the GPs but at least she performs consistently and is a reliable competitor.
     
  18. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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  19. semogal

    semogal Well-Known Member

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    At the beginning of the GP I really thought the ladies would be Wagner, Gold and Gao. But not so much anymore. Poor Christina had a melt down of epic proportions in Paris. What is up with her?
     
  20. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    I am going by memory but I dont remember Mark Mitchell having had sr ladies place top three at nationals before. But nationals will be in Boston...
     
  21. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Really because of luck of the draw (and partially because some more unreliable skaters like Sotnikova have put in better performances than Cesario), I think, that Cesario hasn't medaled.
     
  22. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Well I think Jenny said she thinks the problem with Mark and Peter as technical coaches is that they teach their students to go around the circle and around the rotation when jumping and she said that isn't a technique she believes in because it messes up the shoulders and body alignment. Well makes sense, because their skaters do tend to be more lacking when it comes to technique and jumps... But still, Christina has a sound technical and jumping base though.

    I wouldn't put too much stock into these grand prix outings. There's still 2 months till Nationals and so many things could change by then. It's all about peaking at the right time and who knows if the Russian babies (ladies I guess now for Sotnikova and Tukt) have already peaked on the GP.
     
  23. leapfrogonice

    leapfrogonice Active Member

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    For Karen Chen to withdraw more than a month in advance of the Grand Prix Final, I hope her injury is not so serious that it will keep her out to Nationals. She deserves a shot at the Junior World team it would seem, given the strength of her results. The Championship events also carry a lot of weight from an ISU points standpoint. Important to begin building those in each of the junior seniors.
     
  24. sammyf

    sammyf Well-Known Member

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    I think even without going to Nationals she would have a chance to go to junior worlds if she was healthy by then. Leah was named an alternate last year after making the JGPF and withdrawing from nats and Karen skated very well on the JGP scoring so high that I could see her being named.
     
  25. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    In terms of programs I think Wagner has nailed the short. The long needs a climax or at least more highlights to work. She isn't drawing the audience in the same way her last two long programs did. Those PCS are quite low for just one mistake to be honest. I think the fact that her PCS is that close to Sotnikova's should be an alarm for Team Wagner. She needs to be regarded as the bottom of tier 1 (Kim, Asada, Kostner) instead of the top of tier 2 (Suzuki, Murakami, Sotnikova, Lipnitskaya etc)

    In terms of skating, the elements are mostly solid except for the 3/3 which is understandable, for now. If anything, she needs to spin faster, but good for her for nailing the levels at least.

    At this stage I think a top five in Sochi is likely, but top three isn't yet. I think she doesn't yet have the conviction to command higher PCS. She needs mid to high 8s, not high 7s or low 8s. A consecutive medal at GPF will help.
     
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  26. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    ^^^This sums it up perfectly.
     
  27. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I am more and more impressed by Cesario. She is doing the best she can and is doing her part mostly so far this season at all the internationals she entered. I don't think her 3loop3loop will ever be ratified; but once she has her spins down and perhaps also improved her speed, she can contend for a medal at Nationals. It's not like Gao, Nagasu, Hicks or even Gold are delivering convincing performances so far this season.
     
  28. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Great post/analysis, Marco. Wagner's long program needing a climax/more highlights is so true. R&J is missing excitement and it doesn't demand that the audience watch. With Black Swan, you could sense that the audience in the arena, and even at home, were really excited to see the program performed. You could almost sense people sitting up straighter and paying attention when Ashley took her starting pose, as if they were saying to their friend, "ooh, watch this program. it's great!" R&J is missing that excitement. Tweaks need to be made to bring more excitement to it. So far, the only women's programs that make me stop and watch them are Asada's and Lipnitskaya's, but the latter mostly because her costume is so genius.
     
  29. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    And the placement of the final 3flip - It was perfectly placed to the music in her last 2 long programs and allowed her to explode but this time it was just 'there'.
     
  30. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    I watched Wagner's LP this weekend - I was impressed by the improvements; the program is significantly more engaging but still needs more mileage. She really challenged herself. This is the type of music I could see someone like Kwan skating to, and ultimately making it work. I don't think Wagner is in Kwan's league but it is getting better.

    If Wagner had done a clean 3-2-2 a la SA and not 2-footed the opening 3flip (but kudos on the 3toe despite that!), her LP score would've been easily north of 130 points, perhaps mid 130s. I'm not getting certain aforementioned posters' thoughts that she will fall victim to Sotnikova and Lipnitskaya. She's too tough. I think she is where she needs to be right now in November.
     
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