U.S. Ladies [#9]: Battle to/in Boston

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Sylvia, Nov 12, 2013.

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  1. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    No, that compromises the integrity of the event (to be honest, they seem to already do this to some extent).
  2. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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  3. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    I hope the judging and Olympic Team selection process is fair also! But as we know, there's a lot of subjectivity in what's "fair."
  4. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    The third spot is available for anyone that skates well enough to place that high. However, dropping Ashley and Gracie (both) from the team would be disastrous, if they place 4th & 5th. Those are the ones with podium potential in Sochi. The fed is going to first think of what's best for the USA, whether it's fair or not. Of course if one of the other skaters actually wins the US title, the fed is bound by the rules to select that skater. It's a tall order for the three skaters you mentioned, but if that happens, it will still leave the USFSA the option to select two skaters for the other two spots, and I believe they will pick Ashley and Gracie, regardless of how anyone skates.
  5. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    I'm not so totally sure that would happen. After all, Abbott almost surely would've been considered to have more potential to place high at Worlds than Miner the year he lost to Miner for the 3rd place by a tiny fraction of a point overall, but Ross was still selected and went to Worlds. We'll just have to wait and see, to a certain extent all this endless speculation is getting really tiresome for me (even though I often like considering all of the possible outcomes of things, sometimes I have to laugh a little bit at certain wildly speculative threads and posts on the board).
  6. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    and is that fair?, is that ethical?

    that's why I said it would be a boring and disappointing Nationals if Wagner and/or Gold have mediocre skates compared to more deserving skaters, but are still sent to Sochi by USFS.

    but you are right, it most probably will happen regardless of how anyone else skates.........
  7. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Not for the Olympics. The rules for Olympic team selection are different from world team selection and very specifically do not require that the champion be named to the team, in order to protect USFS's rights to the event by not making them official Olympic trials.

    That said, there is virtually no chance that a skater who wins Nationals would not be chosen for the Olympic team. Unless they're not eligible because of citizenship or because of age (in which case they also can't go to Worlds).
  8. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Luckily, the criteria doesn't require selection only on nationals.

    It would need to be an extraordinary case for it not to be nationals though. I would think if Wagner bombs, she would still be named to the team. I don't think that happens for anyone else though, including Gold.
  9. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't put Abbott and Wagner in the same category. With a few mistakes by the front runners Wagner could be on the podium. IMHO, it would take a meltdown of epic proportions for Abbott to get to the World or Olympic podiums. He also has never had two seasons in a row like Ashley has had the last two seasons.
  10. AxelAnnie

    AxelAnnie Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree. Using Marai as an example...on any given day she can be fabulous. It is just that you never know which Marai is going to show up on which day. The star one or the sulky one. I think those spots need to go to skaters who have proven their ability and consistent results. (And I don't mean consistent jumps....I mean top finishes).
  11. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Why not? The Olympics is a single event, just like Nationals. The skaters at Nationals have to be able to produce at that particular time, in that particular place, which is exactly what they have to do at the Olympics.

    I can't. "Best" is extremely subjective.
  12. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    If Mirai finished 3rd or better at Nationals, I'd send her for sure. No one other than Ashley has made a compelling case to be sent to Sochi without a National medal. They have all had mixed results, no so much better than Mirai, and Mirai still has probably the 3rd best scoring potential behind Ashley and Gracie.
  13. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I used to think that too, but when I considered the pov of the fed, I saw that their goal is to win medals, or at least place as high as possible. So they select skaters that would give them the best chance to medal at the Olympics.

    The US nationals really determine just one spot- the winner goes to the Olympics (or worlds, in the non-Olympic years). The fed has enough flexibility in the rules to select non-medal winners from nationals, but that rarely happens for PR reasons. There will be cries of unfairness. When Michelle Kwan was selected without competing at the nationals, over the bronze medal winner Emily Hughes, there was a huge uproar of 'poor Emily was robbed'. Kwan gave them a better chance of winning a medal so that's who they chose. It was fair, according to the rules. When a lesser skater than Kwan is selected without a podium finish, I can just imagine how big the uproar will be, and yet it is within the rules.

    They will make it easier on themselves by changing the rules to include other competitions, so an outsider won't believe that the s- and B- winners from nationals were robbed. Their rules need to support their goals without causing controversy.
  14. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    It's Mirai. :p
  15. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    ^ that's a good point - the fed is probably "between a rock and a hard place" when it comes to these kinds of issues. It would be in their best interests to select team members based on overall readiness and strength, regardless of nationals results; yet if they did so, many in the mainstream media would cry foul. And if they simply go down the nationals results, potentially leaving off a stronger competitor who just had a rough skate, they damage their chances (and some might argue reputation) on the international stage.

    Still, I don't remember the whole MK-Hughes deal being this big scandal or anything. I do remember many skatefans raising eyebrows, though.
  16. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    If USFS has definite guidelines like the Japanese federation or the Chinese federation then non-medalist can go to Sochi without causing a fuss. But I don't think that will happen -- the nationals deciding all tradition is too strong.
    I think one comp decides all is fine as long as the nationals is well judged and the caller and judges are not being lenient on urs and levels and things
  17. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    I don't remember a huge uproar at all. I remember some online Kwan detractors calling her a hypocrite because she made a big deal out of not asking for an injury bye at 1998 nationals saying she wanted to earn her spot fairly and then asked for a bye in 2006. But huge uproar? Not at all!
  18. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    IIRC, the biggest 'uproar' was from the Hugheses. :rolleyes:
  19. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    ??? I don't recall.
  20. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    I don't recall either. I was not a fan of either Hughes skater but I don't remember them making any fuss. I'd ask the poster to provide a link validating they made an uproar but I suspect such a request would be ignored anyway. :p
  21. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it will be ignored :p because I don't have a link. I do recall a lot of discussion, not just on fsu, but I recall it being mentioned on TV as well.
  22. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    You're saying that someone on TV said the Hughes were causing a big uproar over Kwan's naming to the team? I don't remember that ever happening or talked about.
  23. AlisonS

    AlisonS Member

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    I remember there being a little bit of discussion about what a rough break it is when an injured person gets a bye, some discussion of the fact that Todd E. made the Olympic team in 1992 the same way and then blew the short with a loss of concentration on the 2A, and so forth. But I think the focus of the discussion was more along the lines of 'is it realistic for Michelle to think she will be healthy enough?' I think in her case, even people who were not huge fans of hers (like myself), felt that she had certainly earned enough spots for the US over the years to be given the benefit of the doubt.
  24. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    I do remember an interview with Cohen where she said she thought everyone should have to "earn their spot."
  25. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    ^^Well I'd say standing on every world podium for nearly a decade was more than enough earning. :p
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  26. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    If Ashley and Gracie place 4th and 5th, Ashley will still be named to the team because such a skate would be a fluke for her. She has proven herself enough in the GP series to be given the benefit of the doubt for at least one of the three spots. Gracie, not so much. I don't think she's a lock by any means.

    I hate comments like these from athletes, usually made when the athlete is young and healthy. If said athlete was injured, I'm sure they would want the option to petition as well, and these comments would come back to bite them in the butt later.
  27. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    Actually it is fair, and ethical. The USFS selection rules are not solely dependent on nationals for 2nd and 3rd spots.
  28. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    They aren't for the 1st spot either. Nationals is NOT an Olympic trial. I believe 1st place is only -guaranteed- Worlds. Of course, they will get the Olympics too.
  29. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Active Member

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    You're saying that if the best US ladies skater, 3 seasons running, who has proved herself again and again, and is a legitimate Olympic podium threat, has a bad day and places 4th that it would be smart to leave her off the olympic/world team for the USFSA?

    How about we theoretically send Gao, Cesario, and Hicks.

    The lovely US ladies have no star in Sochi, no one they can hype, no one who has a realistic chance of even coming close to cracking top 6. There is no media darling, there is no buzz.

    The US goes from team event gold medal contender to grabbing only a bronze. In the ladies event they place 8th, 10th, and 14th. Worst showing in history, it's too bad because it could have been very different..

    At worlds after, the US ladies have another respectable showing but the 3rd spot is invariably lost.

    Finally, everyone knows the ladies rule figure skating at the Olympics, but the lack of ladies buzz causes the post Olympic 30 city tour to flop. Figure skating comes out of 2013-2014 much worse than it started it.

    .......all this to say, your lack of foresight is appalling. Happy you're not the one picking the team.

    Disclaimer: The skaters were arbitrarily chosen, not a criticism of those skaters! I tried to be realistic as possible.
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2014
  30. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I thought of one more reason why a national champion might not be named to the Olympic team these days -- if they don't have the minimum technical scores from an appropriate international event.

    There probably isn't time to get them between Nationals and Olympics. If someone who hasn't already earned the scores ended up winning Nationals, I'm sure there would be every effort to get them to some international before Worlds. But the Worlds minimums are higher, so the skater in question would less be able to afford a bad day that would waste the opportunity.
  31. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    As it did with Kwan who made the same comment about wanting to "earn" the spot in 1998 rather than be "given" the spot.

    Still waiting for a link confirming the Hughes made a big to-do over Kwan being named to the team. It'll never happen though because it never happened. :rolleyes:

    I can't believe I am defending the Hughes. Sarah got under my skin as far back as 1999 when it wasn't yet cool to dislike her. :rofl:
  32. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    And before anyone asks me for a link confirming that Kwan made those statements, here it is.

    With her winning history and a nagging foot injury, Michelle Kwan could easily skip next month's U.S. Figure Skating championships and receive a free pass to the 1998 Winter Olympics.

    But that's not her style.

    Kwan announced yesterday that she plans to compete at the nationals in Philadelphia, despite a stress fracture of her left foot.


    "This is the Olympic year, and I want to get the full taste of it," Kwan said. "I don't want to go straight to the Olympics. I want to earn it."


    http://articles.baltimoresun.com/19...1_1_michelle-kwan-figure-skating-skate-canada

    Now I will wait for a URL showing the Hughes made a huge uproar. ;)
  33. OliviaPug

    OliviaPug Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, Fenway, but Kwan was commenting on herself NOT another competitor. I am very sure Kwan wanted to compete at 2006 U.S. Nationals as well, but she was not healed enough to do so. Kwan has always been a competitor and has relished the opportunity to defend her Nationals title 9 times.

    Kwan was not commenting on another skater who was given a bye in the way Sasha Cohen was. And if you want to look at a more analogous situation, look at Kwan's comments when she was named alternate (not given a place) at the 1994 Olympics. She specifically stated that Tonya Harding had earned the right to compete.


    The situations you point out are not analogous.

    O-
  34. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense. The quote I highlighted was a young athlete making a comment about earning a spot rather than being handed one and having the comment come back to bite them, so yes, it does apply.

    Bring on the Kwan brigade.
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  35. OliviaPug

    OliviaPug Well-Known Member

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    Kwan was commenting about herself. She had the ability to skate, so obviously she wanted to skate and earn her spot by competing. Kwan said NOTHING in 1998 about whether or not an athlete should be given a bye when they do not compete and "earn" their spot by competing. Hence, she was not commenting at all on injury byes. Period.

    Kwan DID, however, comment about an athlete being given an injury bye in 1994 when she herself lost out on an opportunity to compete at the Olympics as a result and Nancy Kerrigan received an injury bye to compete at the Olympics.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-sr...998/history/timeline/articles/time_010994.htm

    Maybe you should think about this a little more before making such ridiculous snarky comments. Your situation is not analogous. My example is. Not rocket science.

    O-
  36. Jarrett

    Jarrett Well-Known Member

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    I don't have much to say other than I doubt Michelle took the decision very lightly in 2006. She was trying her best to be at Nationals. I don't think she would have skated at Marshall's if she wasn't excepting to be ready by Nationals. I don't have any problem with a skater petitioning to be on the team. If the committee grants them it is not the fault of the skater. I do have a problem if the judges give unwarrented marks in any competition though. Again it is no fault of the skater but is the fault of the judges.
  37. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    You cannot compare losing a spot on the team to someone who was viciously attacked at a USFSA event to someone losing a spot to an injured athlete who applied for a bye before nationals began. What a huge jump to make. You're throwing up your hands and throwing irrelevant, er, stuff, into the conversation in an obvious attempt to take focus off the original debate.

    Jarrett, I agree that Kwan took her bye seriously. I think she deserved the right to compete.

    I do think her words came back to haunt her though.
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2014
  38. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    I think what Kwan meant by this is that she wanted to earn her spot by winning nationals, since the 2nd and 3rd place finishers do not earn their spots that way. Only the winner is guaranteed a spot.
  39. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, she did win nationals in 1998 and come on, you have no idea if she meant winning nationals or placing top 3. That's conjecture. Bobek looked thrilled at the end of the ladies free skate at 98 nationals because she knew what everyone else knew, the top 3 were virtually assured of going to the Olympics.
  40. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    You're also doing quite a bit of conjecturing. It doesn't matter what the athletes thought, felt or assumed about their chances of making the team. Only the winner makes the team at nationals. For everyone else, nationals is part of the equation, and there are no guarantees.
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