U.S. Ladies [#8] All the Pretty Warhorses

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by kwanatic, Aug 2, 2013.

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  1. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    Keep in mind that if that had happened, Wagner might very well be in a different position than she is now. She made the changes she did BECAUSE the status quo failed her.

    I like her determination and candor. But I wish she'd stop trying too hard...just stay true to her style, perform the necessary tricks (3-3) and let the chips fall. In her defense though - she is one of many who do this, and apparently it is working...

    P.S. This is a criticism I now have of Gold, too...come on, there's more than one type of successful skater out there!
  2. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    ^^I'm not sure which changes you're talking about.

    To be honest, the changes Ashley made to her skater were not that drastic. The main change in Ashley after going to Nicks was that she seemed much more relaxed and calm when she skated. If you watch her programs before Nicks, Ashley always looked a little too excited/anxious when she was on the ice. There was this frantic energy to everything she did and it usually got away from her and she'd make mistakes that would keep her away from the top. Back then she still had nice programs with lovely choreography...she just wasn't presenting herself as well. The confidence and security wasn't there like it is now.

    Ashley's style hasn't really changed over the years. Again, look back at her past programs. The music she picks fits her personality on the ice. It's not a situation like with Gracie where people are trying to turn her into an artistic or elegant skater when she's neither of those things...
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  3. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    On their video blog a couple months David of TSL sort of called Ashley out because she was doing show after show first in Canada on the CSOI then Yuna's show and was scheduled to go to Japan for shows in late July. He was wondering when she was going to start working on those triples triples that she kept saying she was going to do this season since it seemed like she was spending more time doing shows then training. Not sure if it was a coincidence but a few days later Ashley cancelled her trip to Japan saying she needed to start working on her programs.
  4. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    I would hope that Ashley is listening to her coaches first and foremost. She tweeted this ;) photo today:
  5. Jarrett

    Jarrett Well-Known Member

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    I really doubt Ashley cares about TSL or that host. More likely she was feeling it was too much herself.
  6. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    ITA. What concerns me about a lot of travel and shows (and I'm not referring to Ashley specifically here,) is that it must be very difficult to make sure one is eating properly and getting enough sleep. So not only is the skater losing training time, he or she could also be building up a sleep debt and putting on weight. It must be a really tough call when the money brought in from shows is needed to fund training.
  7. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Still though, Edmunds scored 170+ at a summer competition in 2012, which was higher than anything Gracie put up in the summer of 2011. And we saw how Edmunds was scored on the JGP a few weeks ago, 113+ for a FS which wasn't close to her best. Her performance at 2013 Nationals was great, it could have very feasibly scored 118 like Gracie's FS did the year before if she had been given credit for her triples which were borderline and at the mercy of the caller, but had she put up a huge score, it would have looked bad for USFS to not send her to JW, which she probably deserved to go to (Yasmin's jumps weren't any more rotated and Polina had stronger programs overall) and probably could have medalled at. She wasn't given the opportunity, USFS already had Gracie as their new star and combined with Wagner and then Gao's new success, and all the other girls in the mix for the Olympic team, they probably didn't want to promote another skater heading into 2014. Maybe that was part of the reason neither Wang or Miller was sent to JW, they likely could have medaled, very possibly silver or even gold given Radionova's SP, and then if they did that in a convincing fashion, it would throw another contender into the mix. Meanwhile Hicks and Siraj didn't have as strong results internationally and were less likely to medal and shake things up regarding Olympic spots in the coming season...
  8. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    Edmunds didn't get to go to junior world because she didn't have a qualifying score to go.
    Whether she deserved to go I don't know but she should have gotten an opportunity to get a qualifying score

    eta: I feel bad for Wang who lost out of an opportunity to go to junior world 2 years in a row.
    First time she placed high enough but the spot went to the person who placed behind her (but went to jgpf), but the year Wang went to jgpf, the spot went to the person who placed higher.
    :(
  9. chipso1

    chipso1 Well-Known Member

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    You certainly have a lot of conspiracy theories. How about we let Polina develop at her own rate? :blah:
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  10. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    I think Polina along with the rest of the newbies are being held back somewhat but not to their detriment. IMO I think it's fine that Polina didn't go to JW last season. This season she's doing well and is set to have a full run on the JGP which will help her when she finally does make the jump to the senior level.

    Sometimes it's good not to be pushed to the forefront right away. I honestly think Gracie may have benefited from full year of JGP competition. It'd have given her the opportunity to learn to compete without being 100% in the limelight. Instead she had one JGP, went to JW and was thrown onto the senior level the next season. I think she lost a lot of development time b/c there was this mad rush to get her to the senior level as soon as she was eligible.

    Skaters like Polina, Karen and even Angela are lucky to have the time to develop at their own rate. Let them learn to compete, gain the experience, refine their skating, and then come to the senior level. Those girls are being primed for the post-Sochi era of US ladies; for that reason, there's no point in rushing. In the end I think it will work out better for them.
  11. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    Ok in theory, but you're assuming these girls can hang out and wait with no injuries, and that they can afford financially to be held back yet another year.....

    and again, why the mad rush to get Gracie to the senior level as soon as she was eligible???
  12. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it was actually HER choice to move up when she did?
  13. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    The take time to develop argument works if a skater's body doesnt change and has no injuries or college plans or other things in the way. And the skater will have multiple peaks in her career and opportunities at the right time.

    Gracie, Agnes and Polina should have received more jgp assignments while junior. They dont need to stay jr year after year, however. The little jr experience to much senior exposure is why people say this is too much too soon
  14. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Skating is as much about timing as it is talent. Gracie's timing was good b/c the US was/is desperate for another lady to compete at the top. This year I don't think Polina or any of the others would get the same amount of boosting/hype/excitement that Gracie received b/c after Ashley and Gracie (the #1 & #2), there are a number of ladies who are still in the running for that #3 spot who have the experience. Nationals would have to be a total splatfest for the judges to place an inexperienced junior over the number of experienced veterans who are vying for those spots. My guess is the officials would send the newer girls a clear "wait your turn" message with their scores, even if they did skate well at nationals.

    "Wait your turn" isn't always fair but then again that's how the junior phenoms separated the senior ladies.
  15. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    I hear what you're saying, but why would Gracie, for example, be considered an "experienced veteran"? She was pushed into the senior level only last season...& it's not like she had any sort of breakout season last year. She was hit or miss, nothing special...
  16. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    By the time nationals rolls around she'll have had two full GP seasons so that counts as experience enough. She was a seesaw last year; up one competition, down the next. Box of chocolates: you never know which Gracie you're going to get. But luckily for Gracie (or unlucky depending on how you look at it) she has been tapped as the next "It" girl for US skating. A lot of the attention and promotion has been centered around her b/c the federation is looking to her to be the flagship skater for the post-Sochi era of ladies. She has the most favor with the international judges (USFSA may or may not have something to do with that depending on how much you think politics plays into this sport) and she's a top 10 world finisher. Assuming she gets her jumps under control, Gracie is one of the 3 best bets for the US team.

    There's hope that she'll get over her nerve issues and start delivering. If she has a crap season this year, she still has time to get herself together. Gracie's main aim should be the 2018 games...but if she turns out to be a headcase, her star will fade and the USFSA will move on to one of the other ladies (Polina, Karen, Angela, etc.) as the new "It" girl.
  17. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    Gracie may have bombed in her first GP, but she won silver in her 2nd GP event, finished 6th in her first senior Worlds, and second at the WTT. That wasn't exactly a bad season for a squeaky-new senior with only two junior events to her credit.
  18. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    Nothing special really? Her first time out she helped Ashley secure that 3rd spot at Worlds, which had not been done in five seasons. She had the second highest LP in US Nats history under COP. She won a WTT Gold Medal, where her own contributions were signficant. I cannot think of another US lady last year that could help earn that 3rd spot with Ashley's 5th place finish, nor one who could score 130+ in an LP. She had some misses, but the highs made it an extraordinary debut.
  19. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Sure Gracie is inconsistent but i think the hype over Gracie was here was a girl who wasn't like the Russian babies as in she wasn't 4'7 with tiny jumps and she looked like she had her growth spurts and had these huge jumps like we hadn't seen from a US Lady since Tonya. And considering that few US Ladies were doing 3-3's back in 2011 and Gracie was knocking them out like nobodies business people were willing to overlook the weaker points to her skater and inexperience. It was only a little over two years ago but in 2011 very few skaters internationally were even doing 3-3 combo's regularly. The hype has been unrelenting since then mostly not because of Gracie herself.
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2013
  20. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    What's wrong with being short?!
  21. peibeck

    peibeck Counting down the days 'til Skate America

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    I assume what Jammers means is that she wasn't going to go through puberty, get taller and with wider hips, and then have trouble with her triples.
  22. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Gracie Gold's coaching change to Frank Carroll is now official - link to USFS' press release posted in GSD: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/sho...rank-Carroll&p=4001463&viewfull=1#post4001463

    Ashley Cain will make her senior international debut at Nebelhorn Trophy early tomorrow (Thursday) morning - her exact times listed on the schedule are 13:50:40 - 13:57:30 in Germany (7:50 am Eastern time).

    Polina Edmunds drew #3 and Barbie Long #22 of 29 - Jr. Ladies SP in Minsk, Belarus will take place tomorrow morning Eastern time.
  23. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    This probably is the best move for Gracie but i can't help wondering how long Frank will coach her. Doesn't he want to retire? I think Gracie should not worry about making the GPF and just get herself together for Nationals. Making the Olympic team should be her one and only goal after all this.
  24. AliasJohnDoe

    AliasJohnDoe Spin Alissa Spin!!!

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    Why just Gracie?

    Maybe "all" US ladies shouldn't worry about making the GPF and get themselves together for nationals since making the Olympic team is the goal of "all" US ladies.

    Gracie should try for all the competition experience she can get since she has the "least experience" of all top US ladies.
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
  25. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it's confusing when the criteria always change. I mean, in 2012 sending Lam ended up being a bad call because she didn't do well at JW (13th place, and she had a bit of a meltdown at the JGPF too), but I pretty much think this past year sending Siraj allowed USFS from picking between Miller and Wang, who were 10th and 9th at Nationals, but 2nd and 4th at JGPF, picking one over the other would be favoritism, so either they would have to both have been sent (which would have meant Hicks would go to 4CC instead and Gao would have gotten nothing or gone to JW again and bumped Cesario from getting anything).

    Then for JGPs, year after year they base assignments almost exclusively on Nationals results which always proves to be a bad call with at least some of the skaters, and only for Gracie was there an exception made, in that she was sent to a JGP without having made nationals the season before. Agnes had done the exact same thing 2 seasons before, tearing up summer competitions the season following the one she didn't qualify for Nationals for, and she didn't get sent. I think the Nationals results thing is kind of dumb but it would be better if there was a more clear selection process. Seems like things are always flip-flopping.
  26. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    They should just cave in to the modern age and designate two summer club competitions in each region to be the jgp "qualifier."
  27. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    But that would just make so much sense so of course that wouldn't happen?! :lol:
  28. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    No, that's not going to work. The other girls don't have the luxury of picking and choosing whether or not to make the Final b/c they need the credibility points to help their case of getting on the team. Gracie, barring a meltdown of epic proportions, is almost guaranteed a spot on the team. The only other person who can boast those kind of odds is Ashley...everyone else needs to kick ass on the GP and try as hard as they can to make the Final.
  29. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    They ALL need to work hard, *none* can rest on their past laurels, it's a brand new season, and it's going to be a dogfight at Nationals.

    Even past Olympic Champions need to work hard, no one is guaranteed a spot on the Olympic Team, NO ONE. Finito!

    May the best one(s) win! :respec:
  30. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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  31. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    She deserves it! To the victor go the spoils! :encore:
  32. her grace

    her grace Well-Known Member

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    I have hope that the U.S. Challenge in Salt Lake will eventually be used to decide the last few JGP spots, though not the initial ones.
  33. FSfan107

    FSfan107 Well-Known Member

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  34. AxelAnnie

    AxelAnnie Well-Known Member

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  35. leapfrogonice

    leapfrogonice Active Member

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    As the Grand Prix events approach, I would expect the odds will continue to rise for more changes in rosters, so alternates should keep themselves ready to go
  36. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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  37. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Congratulations to Ashley Cain on medaling (bronze, 2nd in FS today) in her senior international debut! :cheer:

    ETA: Oops, I didn't mean to leave out Polina Edmunds who won her second JGP gold medal and has qualified for the Final! :D
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2013
  38. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    Polina!! She's on a roll!
  39. Cyn

    Cyn Well-Known Member

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    Is Polina competing at Nationals in Boston as a Senior? If so, and she continues to deliver, I could see her (as I did at the end of last season for her) as a contender for the third spot on the Oly Team.

    Yeah yeah, I know, Courtney blahblahjumpcakes, but Polina is a much more aesthetically appealing skater, and should she kill it at the JGPF and at Nats, I'd much rather see her in Sochi than Courtney's :yikes: posture and lumbering across the ice with her damned over-the-boot tights that make her feet look like cinder blocks.
  40. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    Why not Polina and Courtney for Sochi? Both are kicking butt this season!!
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