U.S. Ladies [#8] All the Pretty Warhorses

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by kwanatic, Aug 2, 2013.

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  1. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Farris was totally invested in his program, I wouldn't be surprised if that contributed to him missing most of his jumps. Carriere is a 2nd or 3rd tier skater in the US, and his performance was sloppy anyways even though he rotated a lot more jumps than Farris, his scores are fine. As for Max, he is considered "a jumper" like Gracie and it has been vocalized how he needs to work on the 2nd mark, given that, and that he didn't deliver a clean, inspired performance by any means, I think it is okay that Farris beat him by 2.5 points in PCS.

    The situation with Gracie is different because she beat Cesario and Zawadzki by 5 points in PCS, and skated like a deer in the headlights. Granted, Zawadzki was a mess technically too, but Cesario skated very well and was actually committed to her program. If Max had popped all his jumps open and scored 83+ for PCS (5 points above Farris), I'm sure people would be similarly upset. But the situation is not the same. It would be one thing if Gracie had been totally channelling her inner princess/witch during the program and scored 2.5 points ahead of Cesario for PCS even with the pop-itis, but she wasn't committed to the program and got rewarded a 5 point PCS cushion anyways.
  2. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Also loving Angela Wang but what happened to her killer 3lz-3t? She won't get very far at US Nats with 3lz-2t....hope she brings the 3-3 in the FS!
  3. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    ^ Yeah, I noticed that Angela's jump technique changed slightly. Her arms are more bent before picking into the ice (particularly her right arm on her lutz) than last season. Ugh did Agnes teach her to do that?!? I hate it so much!

    Either way, Angela's not really a short program skater, so if she is to develop more fully as a medal contender, she will have to work on that.
  4. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    This. Angela is the first skater who really reminds me of Michelle. There's an ease and flow to her skating that Michelle always had. And that ooze quality is undeniable. She's continuing to grow and mature so beautifully and I really really want her do have a break-out season this year. In terms of post-Sochi skaters, I could see her as a national champion and world medalist.

    I think Angela is superior to Gracie at this point. Gracie is all jumps and misguided attempts at artistry; Angela has the jumps as well as lovely presentation and artistry. The only difference is Gracie has the spotlight and backing, though to be honest it doesn't appear to be doing her any good yet...we'll have to see if she gets herself together.



    She has a better success rate of doing her 3-3 in the FS than in the SP so I'm hoping we'll see it too. The SP has always been an issue for her. She'd make mistakes that would knock her down in the standings. Being that it's her first event, I'm glad they went the safer route. Get a few clean SPs under your belt to build your confidence and then go for the tougher content later.
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  5. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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  6. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    Well, to be objective for a moment, she is now 6th in the world (and helped us get 3 spots back), hence based on results she is now deserving of more of the hype than some of the other youngsters who have yet to make it that far.

    The attention is on Wagner and Gold, and rightfully so.
  7. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    IMHO, it's hard to make the case that Gold is unfairly hyped while asking for some of the other skaters to be given more attention, particularly those who have accomplished less than Gold has...why not just sit back and let the skaters develop/grow up? This is actually a talking point that I wish TSL would bring up in some of their interviews, while they're at it...do the skaters feel like some get more media attention than others (without naming names), and do they think it's fair ?
  8. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    and getting the 3 spots back also gives both Wagner and Gold much more breathing room in the event they skate crappy programs at Nationals.

    Even if they deserve to be placed much lower with a bad skate, the judges can put them in 3rd, to the detriment of skaters with better skated programs.
  9. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    When you look at it on paper, Gracie really hasn't done all that much. She has 2 silver medals (3 if you count last weekend's competition) and a bunch of no podium finishes. She has not won one senior gold medal yet the way they talk about her and hype her up you'd think she was kicking ass in every competition and that's not the case. What she has accomplished is good (silver at nationals, 6th at worlds) but IMO that just shows how far the standard has dropped in the US. It used to be that placing 6th at worlds was a good reason to go stick your head in the sand...but being that the US women are not podium finishers at worlds, 6th place is a reason to throw a party and celebrate. I get it and that's a great accomplishment for her first time there.

    Truth is Gracie is doing fine to say she's going into her second season as a senior. If she had received the same amount of attention that most newbies get coming in, there would be no problem. However, given all of the hype and talk she generated prior to entering the senior ranks and all of the subsequent chatter that continued regarding how amazing she is, I'm sorry, but I'm disappointed by her results. She's not living up to expectations...and that's not entirely her fault. Gracie never said she was going to come in and win everything but, thanks to the Gold PR machine, that's what nearly everyone was expecting to see.

    I never got the hype about Gracie to be honest. I see the big jumps, I see the speed...but that's it. There's nothing else remarkable about her IMO and every time she she fails to deliver I find myself asking, "So what's so great about her again?" I'm still not seeing what everyone else seems (to be desperate) to see...maybe in a few years I'll get it but one year in, I'm still not getting the Grace Gold hype.:shuffle:
  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    The U.S is absolutely desperate for the next Michelle Kwan or even the next Sasha Cohen. That is why Gold is being hyped so far beyond realism and shoved down everyones throats. Her coming 2nd at the 2012 World Juniors in a super strong field full of then highly touted young Russians guaranteed her being the new "It" girl for U.S skating. They werent going to try and hype a middle aged skater who hadnt achieved anything truly outstanding (eg- Wagner, Flatt, Nagasu) as that, despite that Wagner was skating very well and the true #1 American at that point, and nor are they going to hype young skaters who might have potential and even look better than Gold in some ways, but have yet to even produce a top Junior result (2nd at World Juniors in a field of supposed future stars). Pretty much even through failures, inconsistency, inability to deliver the jumps which are her only real strength, and mediocre artistry, the hype machine persists and inflated PCS, giddy overenthusiasm for even a single good skate (eg Nationals LP) persist. As a viewer it is a bit nauseating but is also predictable.
  11. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    As for Angela Wang, she finally skates a good SP and then falls 3 times in the FS :scream: I think the bad SPs were less damaging. Anyways, her new FS is really nice but the jumps were not there today, was she injured over the summer or something? Good news is that she still has a good shot at qualifying for the JGPF due to her 2nd place in Poland, even though her score wasn't very high, so I'm hopeful her next event will be better.

    Anyways, Gracie. She's talented, but I think a lot of her success and hype comes down to skating well at a convenient time. A lot of it was luck (getting assigned to that last JGP which she ended up winning) and the visibility on the internet and such, also she was on the rise at the exact same time Czisny and Nagasu were slumping and Gao and Zawadzki were showing they weren't ready to take over yet. So, opportunity for Gracie. And her second junior season she actually was very consistent which is when all the hype started, the headcasing and all-over-the-place jumps and placement didn't start until last season, when she was competing as a senior for the first time.
  12. her grace

    her grace Well-Known Member

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    No. Gold only skated in one JGP. That was in the 2011-2012 season. Then she went to 2012 Junior Worlds and medalled. The next season 2012-2013, she moved up to senior and was not consistent. She didn't have a "very consistent" second junior season. She didn't have a second junior season period. Like Zawadzki, she didn't have a long junior career to figure out competing internationally and work on consistency. She went from USFS reject (not good enough for a JGP due to not making it out of incredibly-stacked Mids the prior year) to USFS Darling because when they finally let her compete, she competed formidably against the Russians.

    I like Gold. I like her jumps, her spins, her power, and her speed. I do think she's getting inflated PCS because of USFS support. Her SS and TR are good, her choreography and interpretation still need a lot of work. She did keep her performance level up at Salt Lake, even as the jumps fell apart. That's a good sign. Hopefully, she'll be able to combine a good performance with the jumps in her next assignment.
  13. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Gracie needs to just go back to being the jumping machine she can be and worry about becoming a better all around skater after the Olympic season. She wasn't going to medal anyways and at this point making the team should be her single goal this year. If she makes the Olympic team it will be a successful year as far as i'm concerned.
  14. mgobluegirl

    mgobluegirl Well-Known Member

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    I think pinky meant her second season competing at the junior level domestically. Her first one, she placed 6th at Midwestern sectionals, failing to make nationals. Her second season in junior, she was very consistent, resulting in a jgp assignment which she won, the junior national title, and silver at junior worlds.
  15. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    I suppose we will have to agree to disagree because I thought that Gracie attacked her program and that she skated with a lot of speed, energy and power. She didn't look scared to me.

    While Zawadzki was quite a mess technically and Cesario skated very well, the PCS of these two ladies were pretty much the same. lol
  16. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    I didn't realize before that Agnes was behind even LaCoste in the free skate in SLC :yikes:
    I think her technical advantage has always been executing a good looking 3 lutz with +goe and without edge call. So when the lutzes didn't happen, her TES took a dive. Didn't realize the spins were low level too, yikes.

    ETA: Cesario's TES was low for a 6-triple program, partly because of her spin levels and partly her not being able to repeat the (f)lutz due to the edge call.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2013
  17. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Zawadzki article: http://www.teamusa.org/Road-to-Soch...ptember/19/Agnes-Zawadzki-Sights-Set-On-Sochi
    Her 2 GP events are Cup of China (Nov. 1-3) and Rostelecom Cup in Moscow (Nov. 22-24).

    On the bright side, Angela Wang landed her opening 3Lz+3T+2T (11.80 points) and 3F (6.10) in her FS at the JGP in Gdansk.
  18. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    Wowww!!!
  19. rosewood

    rosewood Well-Known Member

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  20. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    When I said second junior season, I meant 2011-2012, she skated as a junior in 2010-2011 as well, that was the season she didn't qualify for Nationals. In 2011-2012, she was consistent, last season, she was not. That was the point I was trying to make. She made a name for herself as a JUNIOR lady, which like never happens, when her jump consistency, family media promotions, and a variety of convenient occurrences happening at the same time allowed her to be a top lady before she even competed as a senior at Nationals.
  21. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    True, the PR machine was working overtime...................
  22. mtnskater

    mtnskater Well-Known Member

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    I would say finishing in the silver medal position at your first Senior U.S. Nationals and winning the free skate in a deep and talented, experienced field and then capping it off with a solid sixth place finish at your first Senior World Championships beating some very big talents, including very talented Russian and Canadian skaters is pretty impressive. Not to mention, beating the US Champion in the free at Worlds and FINALLY securing 3 US ladies spots in time for the Olympics in combination with the US Champion. Oh and delivering good performances at Team Trophy to assist a Gold Medal win for the U.S. Gracie very much lived up to my expectations in her very first year as a Senior ladies competitor.
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  23. nylynnr

    nylynnr Active Member

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    "Her Grace" is 100% correct. If anything, inconvenient occurrences conspired to help Gold make her name. Sure, she put a video of her jumps up on YouTube, but that was more than counterbalanced by the International Committee denying her JGP assignments, because she had not competed at nationals the prior season. This despite her consistently defeating the competition in summer events and posting by far the highest scores. Imagine for a moment that Russia had a junior lady consistently landing clean triple-triples and defeating other junior ladies in non-qualifying events -- would she be held back because she didn't have a good nationals six months' prior, while those other juniors were put on the JGP? It was this disparity that led to the clamor to 1. finally assign her a JGP at the end of the series and 2. built up anticipation for 2012 nationals.
  24. peibeck

    peibeck Counting down the days 'til Skate America

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    Gracie is hardly the first skater the USFS has promoted as "the next big thing" as a junior. Zawadski, Nagasu and Zhang quickly come to mind as other recent examples.
  25. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

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    Gold did great to finish sixth at Worlds. But she was held up at Nationals especially in the SP. She and Wagner were going to Worlds no matter what anyone else did imo. I wasn't impressed with her at Nationals at all.
  26. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    ITA, those two isolated events/skates/outcomes were very impressive for a first-year senior lady. I was not denying that Gracie has been impressive the past couple seasons, absolutely she has. I was saying she was not CONSISTENT last season, which is also true. Salt Lake City - not so great, Skate Canada - meltdown, Cup of Russia - pretty good and impressive silver medal, Nationals - meltdown of a SP, incredible FS, impressive silver overall, 4CC - another meltdown, Worlds - pretty good showing and impressive score/6th place finish, WTT - very good showing and scores (esp. FS), helped her team to the win. And now this season she started on a low note at Salt Lake City.

    When Gracie has been good, she has been quite good, my point was, last season, for as many times we saw her skate really well, we saw her skate quite poorly a comparable number of times. Inconsistency is not the same as just failing to live up to her hype, the issue is sometimes she DOES and it's like WOW, but then usually, she'll skate again and it won't go well and the result is frustrating/confusing.
  27. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    And look how they have all turned out so far....

    Anyways, my point being, Edmunds could have been sent to a JGP last season, could have been sent to JW after winning Nationals, and maybe would have been able to win silver at JW like Gracie did (at least bronze probably), and could have been sent to WTT like Gracie was in 2012. But she wasn't. And she had competed at Nationals the season before and was skating well over the summer. Had she been given those opportunities and did well like Gracie did when she was given those opportunities, Edmunds could be USFS' little darling right now, too. There was definitely some great opportunities being thrown Gracie's way in 2011-2012, and that season, she made the most of them and that was a huge factor in her rise to stardom. But there are a lot of other talented ladies that have not been given those kinds of opportunities.
  28. mtnskater

    mtnskater Well-Known Member

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    You consider a 10th place finish in the short program being "held up"? :huh:
  29. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Polina Edmunds' competition performances in the summer of 2012 were not as consistent as Gold's the year before -- they have different strengths and weaknesses and their situations are not really comparable, IMO. In any case, I think Edmunds' development is right on track and I hope she skates well in Belarus next week and makes the JGP Final.
  30. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    She shouldn't have received full credit for the 3t in her combination. Look at the blade when it touches down, it's 180 degrees short.
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  31. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Considering her performance yes. Keep in mind this is a skater (atleast based if scoring was accurate) who relies completely on doing her jumps well.
  32. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    At COR last year, Gold managed to get level four spins and level three step sequence both in the short and long program. At Skate Canada which she bombed, she managed level four spins and level three step in the long, and two spins out of three were level four in the short. And she got a 52 even with that short
  33. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Gracie needs to get a handle on her nerves and learn how to compete or she is going to go the way of Mira and Alissa. A potentially great skater who almost always comes up short.
  34. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    Me too!!! Go Polina!!!
  35. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    and would that be the end of the world? Let's put things in perspective.
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  36. Flying Camel

    Flying Camel Member

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    Well I'm interested in knowing what's going on with Ashley Wagner. I thought she said she was going to try her triple/ triple at some of the summer competitions. Did I miss her? I don't see her name at any competitions I followed.

    I know she had to find a new coach, but she should have found time to do a short program somewhere. It's almost time for Skate America.
  37. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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  38. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    Count me in as one whom is very interested to see what Ashley's been up to! She, more than any other American female skater, is whom I'm most interested in, as I think she has it all (& always has) ~ technical combined with artistry as well as jumps, combos, spins, and innovativeness (love her Tano doubles). Also it doesn't hurt that she's very attractive & photogenic, which will bring in more viewers and sponsors, et al. Jmho. :)

    GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ASHLEY!!!!:encore: (ps: it's a joy to see that she's finally come into her own these past few years; i always said she should've won it all when she first debuted on the senior circuit back in '08)
  39. Jarrett

    Jarrett Well-Known Member

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    Any other hearsay you can share about the other ladies? :)
  40. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    Ashley said last season that she was planning on cutting back on the appearances this season? She wore herself out. Now she is making appearances at the cost of competition experience. I hope this doesn't backfire. :(
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