U.S. Ladies [#8] All the Pretty Warhorses

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by kwanatic, Aug 2, 2013.

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  1. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

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    Although there have been some partially-black American skaters in the singles field that have reached elite level (Derrick Delmore and Rohene Ward came to mind), I noticed their absence in ice dancing and pairs. Is it because the pools are smaller to begin with for pairs (except Tai Babilonia) and dance? Minorities are at least visible in Canadian ice dancers, but in US I can't think of anyone (ETA: I just remembered Lynn Kriengkriarut is Thai and Naomi Lang is partially native American/Indian).

    ****
    OT: In the south and perhaps most of US, the sentiment about what counts as "black" may still follow the antiquated "one drop rule." I'm not trying to deny kwanatic's experience. However, living in the Washington DC area, I am conditioned to not "judge people by their skin color" (so to speak) or at least keep my mouth shut tight until they tell me what their background is, because my assumptions of people's ethnicity have been proven wrong many, many times (also I'm really bad at guessing people's ethnicity in the first place). Lots of people who look "black" in the US context think of themselves in completely different terms if they are from Latin America, South America, or southeast Asia or ... Polynesia.
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2013
  2. Dr.Siouxs

    Dr.Siouxs Well-Known Member

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    Um....Shibs? ;)
  3. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

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    LOL. Brain dead.
  4. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Off the top of my head, I can think of the following skaters who medaled in Pairs or Ice Dance at the Senior Level at U.S. Nationals:

    Benjamin Agosto
    Madison Chock
    Amanda Evora
    Rudy Galindo
    Beata Handra
    Kyoko Ina
    Rena Inoue
    Natasha Kuchiki
    Naomi Nari Nam
    Aaron Parchem
    Elizabeth Punsalan
    Kristi Yamaguchi (You may have heard of her. ;) )
    Felicia Zhang
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2013
  5. Spun Silver

    Spun Silver Well-Known Member

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  6. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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  7. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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  8. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

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    Interesting list. :) Thanks.

    Wait, Ben Agosto and Liz Punsalan are partial minority? Guess I shouldn't be surprised. All the more reason to keep my mouth shut until people tell me voluntarily about their ancestry ...
  9. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Ben is half Puerto Rican and Punsalan is part filipino.
  10. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

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    Agnes was not a consistent jumper before when she was under Zakrajsek. I think it would be a bit unrealistic to expect her to turn into one now.
  11. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Especially given her performance at COC so far...:slinkaway

    I wonder if the US officials will screw Christina over at nationals again if she continues to perform well on the GP this season and Agnes struggles? Christina looked really good at SC...much better than Agnes looks so far.
  12. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    Gao was not screwed over last year...IMO.

    Have not seen Zawadzki yet so will reserve judgment until I get a chance to see her SP.
  13. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    You agreed with her 5th place finish at nationals? I thought the judges lowballed the hell out of her. She had a strong case for 3rd IMO and should not have been 5th again given the two performances she gave.
  14. OnyxRose81

    OnyxRose81 Active Member

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    Putting Gao aside, I don't think Agnes has deserved any of her marks. She's not consistent and I don't think her skating is anything to write home about. It's awkward and not the good kind, like Kostner. I hope she gets scored appropriately at home now.
  15. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    I don't have an opinion about Agnes' marks at US nationals, but I would like to point out that consistency means nothing. Skaters are supposed to be marked on what they put out during the competition. If Agnes falls all over the place prior to nationals, but lays down two cleans skates at nationals she should be marked on what she does.
    AxelAnnie and (deleted member) like this.
  16. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Awkward is a good choice of words. Her 2012 short program was so unattractive on so many levels. Sadly it was so overmarked that she could bomb the long and still medal. Then last year she screwed up her short and was still overmarked for it so that she was able to medal again despite giving the worst free skate of the final group. Her Olympic chances rest greatly on the short program. If she gets monster scores again, whether she's clean or not, she can still make the team with her typical mediocre free skate. If she skates a clean short, it's over for the third spot. The judges will give her a tongue bath. If she skates a second flawed short program in a row at nationals, they may finally mark her less favorably.
  17. Blondie12

    Blondie12 New Member

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    If Mirai is On (and she is not on very much these days), she potentially could medal at Sochi. She has the ability to skate like she did in 2010 and especially if others falter she could even win. The same cannot be said of christina or Agnes. Even if the stars align perfectly, it is unlikely that they would win let alone medal.

    Of course I do not mean to say Mirai would medal but if she gets back to her former form (again, very much in doubt ) and she does not head case (also in doubt) she could medal. And USOC cares about medals.... We all have seen how exquisite Mirai can be the few times she is on, in terms if raw talent, probably she and Gracie have the most...

    In terms of medals or the future of skating, I do not see how sending Christina or Agnes helps. They are unlikely to medal. Also, both will likely retire after Sochi, especially Christina, she will be like Rachel. So while either girl may be personally deserving of the spot, if USFS thinks long term they might want to give it to someone who COULD medal (maybe Mirai if she is on & others falter) or a rising star for 2018. Ashley will retire likely so we need 2-3 solid skaters to preserve 3 spots.
  18. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think so. That ship has sailed. What you're saying about Mirai was true four years ago but it simply isn't true anymore. Her reputation has changed from upstart with a very promising future to a veteran who underwhelms time and again. I love Mirai. She's still my favorite of the US ladies but she has just as much chance of winning in Sochi as Christina or Agnes - very little. In fact, I think she has an even lesser chance of winning because unlike Christina or Agnes, she has a much worse shot at being there. The public meltdowns, the mental errors and the constant scrutiny over her two-footed landings are very much against her favor of ever being taken seriously as a top competitor again. Once she fell out of first place and tumbled to, what, 7th, at 2010 worlds, the judges were less forgiving of her weaker qualities. Had she held on for a medal, she may have gone on to have a much better career but...it didn't happen. Again, I love Mirai. It breaks my heart to admit these things but it's true.
  19. Blondie12

    Blondie12 New Member

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    Yeah, I did not mean that it was likely or even that it would happen, but if Mirai got her act together (which admittedly is very unlikely) she would have the potential to medal. She has the talent but all this stuff gets in the way. There at least was talk of Mirai in the past being top 3 at worlds when she was at her peak. Assuming that Christina and Agnes are now near their peak, no one even talks about them making a world podium and I think if either one win the OGM or even medaled it would be a shock. For either of them to win or medal - let alone win without help from others above them faltering - would be surprising. Admittedly, Mirai medaling in her current state would be surprising too but I think if you had all three girls skating at their peak Mirai has the most potential to beat Mao or Carolina if she skated like she did in 2010, it is a shame she does not skate like she once does because she is a wonderful skater. I am not willing to give up on her just yet. No one expects anything from her - in fact most have the attitude of just giving up on her - so I hope she skates for herself and pulls a surprise. Doubtful she would medal but I think if she gets her head in order she could put up solid numbers this season, we will see how she does in japan next week.

    Agnes has not done well internationally, it seems like she did not do well today and she was 8th at 4 continents last year. Cristina seems to do better internationally but Agnes always beats her at nationals. I don't see either of them having much impact in Sochi, and both will likely just fade out after the Olympics. The best they can probably hope for is a top 7-8 finish in Sochi
  20. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Honestly I think the best any of Mirai, Agnes, or Christina could hope to do in Sochi is 7th or 8th place, and even that would require them skating light outs, and lots of mistakes. Everyone skating perfectly and none of those three would even be in the top 10. Mirai's opportunity for medals on the big stage is long past at this point; or at the very least it would take a couple years straight of great skating, improving, and regained momentum/recognition to ever reach that stage again. Someone like Wagner would need to skate perfectly and others to mess up (even with her new 3-3s) to medal in Sochi, so even that scenario would be far fetched for Mirai who is miles behind Wagner in USFSA support, reputation and momentum (as well as frankly being the better skater today anyway) at this point.

    With all that said I would like to see Christina go as she is the most likely to skate her best and possibly sneak in that top 10 potential finish the 3rd U.S lady (whoever it is) could get.

    To think Carolina or Mao skating at their peak (which I assume you mean to be skating cleanly with what they currently have planned) could ever lose to Mirai at this point is pure fantasy. Carolina and Mao skating perfectly with all they have now could even make it very close vs a clean Yu Na Kim, as Mao's base value is like 10 points higher than Kim's, and Carolina can roughly match Kim in almost every category of scoring right now. Kim would probably win even in that case (and yes I know it is super unlikely Mao or Carolina would skate cleanly, but the same is true of Mirai) but it would be very close between the three for sure. So to say an inspired Mirai could beat a clean Carolina or Mao, is almost the equivalent of saying an inspired Mirai could possibly beat a clean Yu Na Kim right now which is a huge :rofl:

    Mirai is not as good a skater as 2010 by a long shot even on her best day, and even in 2010 she did not medal at the Games with her best performances, and points wise wasnt particularly close Even if one thinks she should have (and I would have given her the bronze possibly) it would only be 5 times more likely she was underplaced/robbed of a certain placing than it was back then, when there was atleast no strong American clearly above her, Flatt being National Champ aside.
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2013
  21. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Some observations up to this point in the GP series -

    It goes w/o saying that Wagner and Gold are both locks for 2 of the 3 slots for Sochi '14. Gold w/ a few mistakes in her LP was still double digits score-wise ahead of Gao, Hicks, et al.

    Gao is probably a slight favorite at this point for #3 because she is the most together in her skating; fairly consistent, rotated jumps, reliable 3t-3t, improved 2x

    Hicks could be a spoiler but she is too 'green', manifested by her performances at SC where she choked in the SP. Still, if everyone else fails, she could grab #3

    I really hold out hope for Nagasu. She did start rotating her jumps including a 3t-3t by the final GP event last year. She looks hungrier than I've ever seen her. NO falls, step outs, grit and determination despite it all. If she gets the jumps around, she'll be fighting for #3

    IMO, Zawadzki is one more bad performance away from getting dumped by the USFSA. If she fails in the LP at CoC and at her next GP event, she's toast at Nationals.

    Sadly, I think by virtue of the fact that Czisny is not getting any Senior B's thus far probably signifies that the USFSA is not expecting anything from her outside of a miracle. We'll see at Sectionals, but she needs an international competition to qualify for the Olympics. She has 1 shot in December to get an invite to Golden Spin, NRW Trophy, or something like that. Perhaps the USFSA is waiting to see how she does at Sectionals to see if she merits being specially sent to a Senior B that normally the USFSA doesn't send skaters to.
  22. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Please. Agnes hasn't shown she's been worthy of being on the podium at Nationals ever since she turned senior. USFSA is too blind to see that and have continually propped her up for no reason. I doubt if she has one more bad skate, they're going to dump her. If she gets that third place spot at Nationals with a cra*tastic skate, I'm going to scream. USFSA should have dumped her ages ago before Mirai.

    I found it funny that Scott thought that Agnes would one day be national champion in 2011. In his dreams! I knew it was never going to happen and I was vocal about it. On the other hand, I always knew Ashley had everything to be a top US lady, but everyone told me that with Ashley, it was always 'would have,' 'should have,' 'could have.' Well I was right. So I should become the new NBC analyst and Scott should retire. :D
  23. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    And all I want to say is... Why is everyone skating to such c*** in an Olympic year? Between Ashley's LP, Gracie's SP, Carolina's SP, Kanako's SP, and Adelina's SP is anyone besides Mao and Akiko skating to anything normal?
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2013
  24. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it's far fetched one bit. US judges love Agnes and turn a blind eye to her errors. They've propped up much worse performances (Czisny in 2009) so it could still happen. I pray it doesn't, though.
  25. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    It could still happen - she is only 19. Honestly, I always thought that in the right hands she could do some serious damage but (thus far) she has been unable to find that. The talent is there, I think. I mean, look at Wagner - went from B-list US skater to possible Oly medal contender in just 2 years. And she isn't even anything special TBH. It's proof AGAIN that it's not enough to be talented. It may not even be enough to be a hard worker. You have to be in the right hands (have the right team around you) and be lucky.
  26. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

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    Not that I'll change anyone's mind, but I don't think anyone's going to dump anyone. Whoever skates well in Boston come January will go to the Olys and that is that. I just hope that they all stay healthy from now to February.

    Like Agnes or not, she hardly ever gets < or << even when she falls. She has the height on her jumps. Her triple Lutz is beautiful and never takes off on the wrong edge. That's more than one can say about most US ladies.
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2013
  27. FSfan107

    FSfan107 Well-Known Member

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    I think Polina Edmunds could potentially be in the mix for the 3rd spot on the Olympic team. I know she has only competed on the JGP, but she has been impressive.
  28. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    She will be crucified by the caller with <s and <<s at any senior internationals for many of the jumps she did this season.
  29. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Even if Polina got 3rd at Nationals, I doubt USFSA would send her to the Olympics. That's not happening despite what other people might think.
  30. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    Though Agnes was away from Tom Z for a while, she did and still skates like a Tom Z skater. She can use more work in skating skills, speed, etc.
    When her jumps are on she can be exciting though

    eta: I am not getting Agnes's low tes. The judges were really stingy with the goes. The first three jumps looked big compared to the previous girls and she didn't get much goe out of them.

    And the URs in the second half. Sigh.
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2013
  31. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    I don't see why they wouldn't send her? It's not like the 3rd US Lady is expected to medal anyways or maybe even make the top 10. It would be great experience for her though. I would rather see someone like her then a veteran who finished 4th but won't do any better in Sochi.
  32. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    She very untested on a senior stage and isn't exactly the most consistent skater either. That 4th place finisher might not do any better, but Polina has bombed many times and will get dumped on PCS.
  33. Blondie12

    Blondie12 New Member

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    No, I did not mean Mao or Carolina skating at their peak; I mean Christina, Agnes and Mirai - if either three American ladies skated the best they possibly could, Mirai would have a better chance at beating Mao or Carolina, admittedly, perhaps a struggling Mao or Carolina. Mirai has done this like in the short program at 2010 worlds. And she beat Carolina in the Olympics when she was not even perfect. I don't think Christina or Agnes, even if they skated their best, could beat Mao or Carolina unless the latter two were really off.
  34. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Mirai's days of beating Mao or Kostner are pretty much over unless they bomb.
  35. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    ^Well Mirai never beat Mao anyway even in the old days...
  36. Blondie12

    Blondie12 New Member

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    It will definitely not happen with Mao, but Carolina is another story, she did not look great at Cup of China and the choreography of that program is horrible. Of course, Mirai is not at her 2010 level and likely will not return to that level. But if she was, she would be better than what Carolina put forth today

    I am not sure if Carolina is injured or if something else is the matter or if the season is just starting off slow for her. But she has to change things around if she will be a factor in Sochi, or sadly this will be just a repeat of Torino...and Vancouver and she will be remembered as the lady who always flaked during Olympic seasons. I hope the problem is physical rather than mental because there is a greater chance of that being fixed by Sochi time.
  37. Blondie12

    Blondie12 New Member

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    In any event, it looks like the third pick will be Christina, Agnes was a mess today, they cannot have her in that 3rd spot, her days of being propped up are over. If Christina skates clean it is hers to lose I think.
  38. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    Mirai won the SP at Worlds in 2010 :)


    I don't think Mirai's programs this year are anything to write home about. It's like she's using walmart as her choreographer.
  39. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    People said the same thing about Pogorilaya in seniors and well, she seems to be off to a good start :p I like Edmunds and think she will do well on seniors and could very well deserve the 3rd spot on the team, though I'd be surprised if she got it. It's okay though, at 15 she has plenty of time to gain experience on the senior international level.
  40. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    The US has no need to push 15 year old's to make their Olympic team unlike Russia which doesn't have a lot of good skaters older then 18.
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