U.S. Ladies [#7] Wagner's Rink Cycle

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Vagabond, Feb 10, 2013.

  1. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Active Member

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    I just can't stand how everyone seems to know exactly how everyone will skate at worlds. People need to stop writing off the top US ladies and let them decide their fate without all this brainwash stuff. I think both will come out singing at worlds but again again I just wish them the best.

    Maybe Ashley will land 3/3, maybe she'll leave it out but at least we should stop putting the writing on the wall as of right now.
  2. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    How do you know this?!
  3. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Jammers doesn't actually know this; he just believes it. ;)

    I agree with you, but not everyone is doing this. :) Internet skating discussion forums always are going to include fans who "write off" skaters after they don't perform up to expectations in their most recent competition(s) and they tend to be the loudest (and most repetitive) voices.
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2013
  4. AJ Skatefan

    AJ Skatefan Well-Known Member

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    Probably all of the above. It was her biggest international competition to date. She was probably scared to death. She just needs time.
  5. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    The first mistake in the SP was pure mental error, she was 2nd guessing herself. The 2nd mistake in the SP seemed like a timing issue, probably thinking too much.

    Not sure at what point in the LP she got the nose bleed, but I wonder how that affected her.
  6. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Here were the quotes by Gracie Gold that were distributed to the media at Four Continents:

  7. bek

    bek Guest

    I don't want Gold/Wagner kicked of the team. What I want is a change to how worlds is decided and also Nationals to be judged more fairly. That's it.

    I never bought into the whole Gold should go to worlds.. (last year) At the end of the day I suspect the issue is Nationals determine the event but Nationals is judged questionably to say the least.....
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 12, 2013
  8. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    Gold has been put in a very undesirable situation...she's on the world team, and one of those quotes state that she is shooting for top 10...which, FOR HER, is quite a reasonable goal given her experience level - but at the same time, you've got a whole legion of US skating fans (and media folk) who wants results NOW and who want those 3 spots...and they will demand not just top 10 but perhaps top 6-8 finish from her (depending on how Wagner does), and if she doesn't get that, woe betide her...the vultures will be relentless in their feasting...


    BTW, I include myself in there...I'll willing to admit that. It has been frustrating to see the US women sabotage their chances again and again, year after year...and realistically, I just don't see things changing this year. I'd LOVE to be wrong about this...
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
  9. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    I hear you. I do the same thing and it's out of frustration. I've been frustrated since '09 - Czisny was a rotated 3 loop away from 8th place and 3 spots for Vancouver. Nagasu was a properly executed 2x away from a bronze medal at '10 Worlds, Flatt's injuries at '11 Worlds, Czisny's injuries at a weaker '12 Worlds ... ARGH!

    Anyway, you gotta have hope. Wagner and Gold are capable of around 4th and 9th IMO. However, the USFSA has got to dispense with the hidden injury nonsense of the past couple of years. Too bad there isn't a pill for headcaseyness, though.
  10. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    It hasn't been just the US women who have sabotaged themselves. The US judges have done a terrible job judging US Nationals. I don't know if they're heavily pressured by USFS but they've consistently propped up headcases like Alissa and Agnes (though, despite all her gifts, she's yet to make a world team, thankfully), while holding back some of their more consistent skaters. It seems every year lately, after US Nationals, we have the same angry discussion about WHY the US propped up a certain skater and then that very skater goes on to predictably bomb at worlds. I just wish the judges judged what they saw on the ice. Yeah, not going to happen, I know.
  11. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    actually, they did reward their more consistent jumpers (e.g. Flatt).

    USFS isn't proactive enough in their decision making (in general, not specifically judging related). So they make conservative decisions that yield conservative results. And by making decisions to avoid criticisms, criticisms is exactly what they will get into. Just look at the way they send girls to JGP--they can't find a controversy-free way of assigning girls to JGP, so they stick to something that sometimes don't work, creating more controversies.

    Yes, that and generous calling re: jumps at nationals, etc. etc/
  12. Mayra

    Mayra Well-Known Member

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    Meh, I've been one of Gold's biggest cheerleaders on this board and I honestly don't hope for anything beyond a top 10 finish(and even then it's not a given).

    Watching Mao at 4CC's and Kostner at Euros, it really hit me how different these skaters are from their early years. They always had excellent basics, but that extra something that takes someone to the next level as an artist wasn't there. In fact it has taken them years and a lot of bumps in the road to reach this level. It's not always a smooth ride to the top and that's ok.

    The "vultures" can feast all they want. The ice is slippery and Gold is going to fall multiple times and she's going to find a way to pick herself up. Whether she picks herself up to become something bigger in the sport or does enough to make herself proud(yes the journey matters), only time will tell.

    In the meantime, my hope is that she takes everything in stride and learns from her experiences. JMO :)
  13. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    True, partly. They rewarded Rachael when she delivered at nationals in 2009 and 2010 but they denied her the title in 2009 in favor of propping up Alissa, a headcase. Then Alissa bombed at worlds, predictably. And when Rachael skated poorly at 2011 nationals, they propped her up and screwed over Mirai. And Rachael bombed at worlds. Very rarely has their propping up a female skater benefitted them come worlds. Just judge what happens on the ice.
  14. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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    Every US lady who's gone to Worlds the last few years has had to compete there knowing that she HAS TO to get those 3 spots back. And a lot of them go in carrying that load with relatively little experience. Between 2007 and 2012, the most successful, experienced US lady was Alyssa Czisny, with 12 international and 4 national medals. Wagner is closing in, with 9 international and 5 national medals. Gold, nowhere close. But if she and Wagner fail to deliver, the villagers will be running for the torches and the pitchforks...
  15. bek

    bek Guest

    Honestly though Nomad. Its not the skaters I want to torch. Although (I will clarify I absolutely think both Flatt and Czisny had no business skating in Worlds the last two years with their injuries. Follow Evan's example and bow out when your that injured and can't do their jumps).

    However in general the skaters can only do their best. Who I really want to torch is the Judges at US Nationals. And I suspect that's who a lot of people want to torch. If you notice the one year nobody's screaming crying about was 2010. Flatt and Nagasu have never been torched and pitch forked. And the reason being is while there were a ton of questions about Mirai winning vs Rachael. In general I don't think anyone really disagreed with the Nagasu/Flatt team. It didn't feel like anyone outside those two really deserved different placements. So both girls did their best, didn't work out okay. There's no, you judged this person soo unfairly.

    But the last few years it felt different. US Nationals was so questionably judged that its hard to imagine why people wouldn't be upset. I don't think fans are mad at the skaters. They are mad at the Judges. Its just there's no judges dart.

    And its kind of like watching history scarily repeat itself over and over again.
  16. Loves_Shizuka

    Loves_Shizuka Well-Known Member

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    LOL, that's my point! It amuses me that last year so many people heralded Gracie as the immediate saviour of US ladies, and the second she falters, they're onto her. Personally I think she and Ashley are going to have a great worlds; I seem to be far more optimistic than a lot of people here.
  17. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    I am pleased with Gold's humility and candor post 4CC--she said she hopes to finish in the top 10 but mostly wants to have a great experience and that she is honored to share the ice with the likes of Asada. That's a nice contrast to the "Girl On Fire" image created by the media and likely her own PR team.
  18. Mayra

    Mayra Well-Known Member

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    I think it's the image a few people have created in response to the "over hyping." *Some* want to see this 17 year old as something she isn't in order to justify their own backlash. Very similar to early Cohen and even Wagner IMO. It is a big no no to want to win. Ambition isn't a good thing as far as image goes. You have to bow and scrape to the top finisher and you must always want to skate your best but never actually say you want to win. Your music must be humble in nature(whatever that entails) and above all wait your turn.

    Zzzzzz ;)
    Maximillian and (deleted member) like this.
  19. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    I have actually never heard Gracie say that she wanted to win. There is nothing wrong with that IMO even if she did. What turned off was her reaction to her loss to Wagner. It's one thing to want to win--they all do--but it's another to act entitled. That was my perception of her behavior after the free at Nats. I am not saying it's a fact, just the sum of glimpses here and there, the way it looked to me. Plus her exhibition choice? Girl is clearly not yet on fire. Glad she has a more realistic view now.
  20. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    "im just happy that I tried my best, and it has really motivated me for practice"
  21. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Somebody please help me. I really want to be excited about Gracie but I still fail to see what everyone's so excited about.

    I see the potential in her jumps. Good height, distance and speed...good technique except for the flip. She's a gifted jumper, there's no denying that. Her basics are good, her spins are decent. She's a solid skater. However, I'm failing to see that spark of anything else special that would make me excited to watch her. So many girls have the ability to jump and spin, but for a few, there's something extra about them that makes them stand out:

    Julia: Her presentation. It's very, very good for a 13 or 14 year old skater. She's ahead of the curve in terms of that. If she had choreography that would force her to listen to the music and utilize that presentation along with her flexibility, she could be amazing...plus she has difficult jumps.

    Adelina: Lovely, mature presentation, gorgeous lines and extension, great flow...she's 16 years old but she's the only newbie who could legitimately give the top 3 skaters a run for their money at worlds...plus she has huge, difficult jumps.

    Liza T: She has pizazz, attitude and fire when she performs and she does perform when she skates...plus she has difficult, textbook jumps.

    Kaetlyn: She's a natural born performer who can connect with her music and the audience easily...plus she has nice jumps.

    Zijun: Lovely, lyrical style and presentation and a great understanding of music...plus difficult jumps.

    It's like everyone has something extra in addition to the jumps. With Gracie, I see huge jumps and a positive attitude about her skating...but that's it. I don't see natural grace from her; her skating is very stiff to me. Her arms are rigid almost airplane-y, her jump landings are abrupt and very Emily Hughes with the "Taa-daa!" arms. I don't see any kind of musical connection or understanding when she skates. She regurgitates choreography the way most younger skaters do meaning there's nothing behind her movements which leaves the program feeling empty. In terms of emotion, her face is either blank, plastered with a fake smile, or terrified looking.

    Maybe I'm expecting more from her than I should. To me, 17/18 is more than old enough to have a good grasp on the basics of performing. I look at Michelle and Sasha at 17/18...or Mao and Yu-Na at 17/18: maturity, polish, artistry and then some. I know it's a little unfair to hold Gracie to such high standards but when people are constantly saying how wonderful she is, I'm thinking, "Well if she's so great, why is she 17 years old and still skating like a 13 year old?" There are a number of up-and-coming skaters who I'd place above Gracie b/c they display more than just jumps when they skate; however, most people don't know about them b/c for some reason the media is fixated on Gracie.

    I'm really trying to be excited for her and cheer her on but as of now I'm just annoyed with her. Huge jumps are great but when they're delivered in a generic shell of a program with zero to connection to the bad music she's skating to, I feel let down and then really angry and confused b/c the media then proceeds to wax poetic about how marvelous and wonderful she is and how she's a star! Plus, I'd probably lay off of her some if she actually had some consistent skating to back up all of this praise but her skating has been sporadic all season long. She is 100% hit or miss right now.

    I'm sorry to have a mini rant and I'm not trying to pick at her; I'm honestly trying to understand. I want to like her and, seeing as how NBC and USFSA has anointed her as the "golden child" something tells me I need to start liking her. But given her current level of skating and what she's managed to do this season, I'm hardly impressed and still wondering what makes Gracie Gold so great and worthy of this all this praise and attention?

    Maybe somebody who actually gets it can help me understand...
  22. dawnie

    dawnie Active Member

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    Well in addition to the jumps, she's the perfect girl to market in the American media- young, pretty, and a fitting last name to boot. Agnes and Courtney were the last 2 US Junior champions before her and they received some hype but not nearly as much hype as Gracie. Agnes and Courtney are pretty girls as well but if either one of them were in Gracie's position right now, would they be getting the same attention? I don't think so. Gracie just has that all-American look.
  23. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

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    If looks made a skater, Cohen would have always beaten Kwan and Korpii and Czisny would have been 1-2 at the last two Olympics at least. Maybe three. And if it counts for males, where is John Z's Olympic medal??

    Gracie has a PR machine working behind the scenes. Media outlets don't show up to write about junior skaters who missed the last Nationals, as they did a year and a half ago, unless someone has been hounding them to do so.
  24. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    Exactly! And it continued this season with USA Today and Today Show promoting the heck out of her. I'm sure Gold PR Machine hounding was involved there too, because it certainly wasn't her record as a Senior....

    Which makes it all the more ironic when some of her fans on this board, and members of her team, are always begging that she be left alone to mature in her skating, blah, blah, blah, she's so young, blah, blah, blah, when her own PR machine is a big part of all of the hype, and is continuously hounding media outlets for publicity....

    You can't have it both ways...........
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
  25. Spun Silver

    Spun Silver Well-Known Member

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    Gracie doesn't have any technical weaknesses, she skates big, she has great line, and her height and long limbs and perfectly proportioned, toned body all give her a regal look when she is "on." I think all she needs are confidence and better programs. The programs shouldn't be a problem. (Not saying they aren't, but her team ought to be able to get her the best choreography anywhere.) The confidence though... how can she build that up when she's being hyped and analyzed all over the place in a pre-Olympic year? She does have a lot in common with Caitlyn who is dealing with similar hype, but at least Caitlyn doesn't have to deal with the Gold/Goldilocks thing. Maybe Gracie should go back to her natural hair color ... and wear headphones if necessary.

    But I would put my money on Caitlyn at this point.
  26. dawnie

    dawnie Active Member

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    I was talking about hype, not actual results.

    And IIRC, both Agnes and Courtney had some media attention when they won Juniors. Agnes also missed the last Nationals before her Junior win and got considerable attention when she received the highest score ever posted for Juniors. Courtney topped it the year after and received some attention as John Nicks' next big thing. And then we know what happened the next year with Gracie. Maybe Gracie does have a PR machine or a savvy agent working every angle, but I also wouldn't doubt USFS being involved with the push to promote her. I was not one bit surprised when they invited her to compete at WTT.
  27. Loves_Shizuka

    Loves_Shizuka Well-Known Member

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    What exactly is the "All-American" look?
  28. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Well, the NBC announcers during the Olympic gymnastics trials kept talking about how Kyla Ross had 'that great international look', so I assume Asian isn't the All American look :)
  29. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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    I have always understood it to mean "Anglo-Saxon". I've always hated that phrase. And FWIW, I don't see how Hicks' or Zawadzki's looks would be considered any less marketable than Gold's unless they're after someone who looks like Figure Skating Barbie.
  30. Spun Silver

    Spun Silver Well-Known Member

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    I am pretty sure they were talking about her being slim and elegant, not Asian. They were contrasting her with the more "athletic" (muscular and more technical than artistic) members of the US team. Not everything is about race/ethnicity, really it's not.
  31. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

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    Winning trumps looks. They had no trouble marketing Lipinski, who isn't a classic beauty, because she won the medals. And Kwan is not "all-American" in the traditional "anglo-saxon" sense, obviously, yet is a millionaire many times over thanks to winning.

    If USFSA does think they need to market Gracie because she is pretty enough, they need to look back and realize that it is about winning not being photogenic.
  32. FSfan107

    FSfan107 Well-Known Member

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    Gracie has been receiving media attention for about a year about being a promising up-and-comer, but it hasn't been anything excessive. Some newspaper & magazine articles, maybe a feature on ESPN's website or something. Outside of the NBC coverage, I don't know of Gracie being talked about on any major national network. She hasn't received anything close to what Michelle Kwan, Tara Lipinski, and Sasha Cohen received when they were juniors heading into the senior ranks (not to mention the likes of a young Dominique Moceanu and the Williams sisters). Of course some of the press hype is diminished now with figure skating receiving less coverage in the United States. I really don't understand how some see the coverage of Gracie as over-the-top. Ashley Wagner has received just as much if not more media attention (rightfully so as National Champion) in the past year. My guess would be that their favorite senior lady skaters in the U.S. haven't accomplished anything. I don't know what else it could be.
  33. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    I do agree that she skates big and that her jumps and speed leave a good impression. Technically, she's solid with the exception of her flip, so I agree with that too.

    I think she's a cute girl but there's nothing about her appearance that makes her stand out from the rest of the bottle blonde skaters out there...

    As for her lines, they're okay but not great. Great is Mao Asada, Carolina Kostner, Adelina Sotnikova... Gracie's stiffness in her arms is distracting. There's way too much tension and it makes her arm movements look like flapping and gives her skating a slightly rigid look...

    Regal quality comes from confidence, presence, ease and carriage. I've never seen Gracie perform with those qualities so I can't say I've even seen her look regal while skating...examples would be great.

    I just don't get it...:shuffle:
  34. Spun Silver

    Spun Silver Well-Known Member

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    Speaking for myself I am referring to all the buzz on skating sites as well as the way Phil Hersh, who I guess is the no. 1 US sportswriter covering skating, has latched onto her as the great hope of US skating in column after column... and announced it to the world whenever she has fallen short. It may not be like the Kwan-Cohen era, but it's a lot for our diminished era.
  35. Spun Silver

    Spun Silver Well-Known Member

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    Well, I may have overstated her fine points just a bit, but the potential is there. You are right about the arms, though. I forgot about that. I thought she looked regal in her FS at Nats. Not when she was marching, though!
  36. algonquin

    algonquin Well-Known Member

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    It is spelled Kaetlyn. I know it is an odd spelling.
  37. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Lol, Spun Silver! :D

    I'm not trying to be a big ol' b*tch to Gracie, I swear. I'm just stating what I see and trying to understand what everyone else sees that's so amazing...I'm really curious as to why people are so enthralled by her.
  38. FSfan107

    FSfan107 Well-Known Member

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    Well yeah, I could see people getting annoyed in response to Hersh. He seems very reactive/judgmental these days. One day a skater is the greatest thing going, but a couple of falls and they're hopeless. :rolleyes: He sounded like he wanted Max Aaron knocked off the World Team after his short program at Four Continents.
  39. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I assumed they weren't refering to her being the only (I think) Asian girl there, but since they never explained 'the look' or what international judges/community prefered it was certainly a poor word choice. I know multiple people who heard it the way I jokingly posted, it was commonly discussed the next day at work- that she was NOT "All American".
  40. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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    Granted, I have only seen her in four competitions, but I don't see anything amazing. Or regal. Or even potentially interesting. Maybe that will change but right now, she's just another jumping bean to me.