U.S. Ladies [#7] Wagner's Rink Cycle

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Vagabond, Feb 10, 2013.

  1. Andofanatic

    Andofanatic Member

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    Wagner was too focused on getting the U.S 3 spots and not enough on her own goals. She didnt attack and didnt look like a winner. I am dissapointed in her. Still I am sure the USFSA and U.S judges have already booked her and Gold tickets for the Olympics by getting 3 U.S spots back but if she wants to do the Team Event at the Games over Gold, remain #1 U.S female over Gold, and be a silver or bronze medalist at the Olympics, much different attitude and approach is needed.
     
  2. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    I thought both Ashley and Gracie did their jobs.

    Ashley wasn't as on fire as she was at the beginning of the season. She did look like she was skating to secure spots, not necessarily make it to the podium which is both silly and smart at the same time. Silly b/c you always want to strive to be the best but smart b/c there wasn't much chance of her getting onto that podium unless one of the top 3 had a meltdown. She did lose points on levels and that's what cost her 4th place but I'm happy with what she accomplished.

    Gracie still looked a bit jittery/unfocused at times but she seems to be slightly better at controlling her nerves and not letting the performance slip away from her. She held it together, stayed on her feet and didn't pop any of her jumps. I still think she was overscored in the FS but whatever. I'm glad she was able to put together two respectable skates and hold up her end.

    I'm proud of both of them for doing what hasn't been done since 2007.

    Did anyone else see Phil Hersh's proclamation that Gracie Gold is now the #1 US lady? How the hell did he come to that conclusion? I guess he thinks b/c Gracie has outscored Ashley in the FS twice that she (Gracie) has now leapfrogged Ashley to become #1 despite the fact that Gracie has never beat Ashley in total points, or the fact that Ashley won two GP events plus GPF silver, another US title and placed the highest at worlds. It's redonkulous how quickly Phil jumps on and off of bandwagons...
     
  3. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I think Wagner is still U.S #1 for now but I wouldnt be surprised if the USFSA is ready to anoint Gold U.S #1 next year, and unless Wagner does something great she will be demoted to the U.S #2. It is clear the USFSA wants the next Kwan, and while I dont think Gold will ever be a Kwan who dominates at the World level and wins a bunch of Worlds (granted the field and international competition today, and scoring demands are both light years harder than the Kwan era, no direspect to the great Kwan of course) she is obviously more of a possability to become that then Wagner who is an older skater who would do well to win 1 or 2 World medals (probably not Gold) after the big guns retire before she retires herself. Is Gold someone who could have a long reign as top American and become one of the top in the World for many years and win a boatload of World medals? Quite possibly not, but she still is more of a possability than Wagner, and that probably makes her a juicier proposition to the USFSA. Wagner could slip back into her more suitable role, a reliable and soild #2 who helps ensure 3 spots for the U.S. A kind of Super Flatt.
     
  4. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    I would love for Ashley to stick around 1-2 more years after the top 3 inevitably retire after 2014. If the top 3 were not there the past two years, she would be a 2 time world medalist.

    Gao. The others are too headcase-y.

    (For personal reasons, I would love to see Czisny make it, but I predict she will be 7th).

    I think Wagner would have something to say about that. She is not comfortable as the #2.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
  5. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Oh I definitely don't doubt that's the way they are thinking, but Phil bothers me by stating something to be fact when it's based on nothing but his assertion that Gracie has surpassed Ashley...which is fine if he thinks that but there is zero proof to his statement. If Gracie had placed 5th and Ashley 6th, okay you might think that. But Ashley has never placed 2nd to Gracie.

    Phil flip-flops so frequently b/w his saviors it makes my head hurt.

    It's obvious that Gracie is a podium contender but until she actually makes it to the top of a podium (not the one in Phil's head) or at least places higher than Ashley at an event, I think he should refrain from making such statements...
     
  6. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Well-Known Member

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    It was clear at worlds that Ashley was the #1, and I'm going to venture a guess that she'll bring her A-game to keep it that way. She just looked very taxed at worlds in her programs by the end of it all. It's been a very different season for Ashley Wagner, something to get used to. Pressure, injury, illness, SHOW SKATING (something which eats into training time, she's not used to that) etc. These things add up.

    Gold was fantastic aswell but she reminded me more of a kid phenom than a ladies champion at worlds. Still a long way to go artistically before she gets there, and I think she will in time :)
     
  7. lmarie086

    lmarie086 Well-Known Member

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    post deleted
     
  8. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    The rivalry between Gold and Wagner will be good for both. I am quite sure next year they will remain the 2 best Americans, even if others raise their game to try for the 3 women Olympic team, and both will badly want to be #1. Wagner seems even hungrier than Gold in general, so she might even want it more, but whether that will overcome the superior overall talent and youth factor of Gold remains to be seen.

    I am sure both want to be the skater to do the team event too. U.S might have a medal shot there. Then again they might let both do a program so both can medal. Canada definitely has a stronger overall team (equal dance, much stronger pair, much stronger man, equal lady), Russia probably will too (much stronger pair, stronger dance, stronger man if Plushenko competes, equal lady), so that would leave U.S fighting for the bronze in the Team event maybe.
     
  9. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Ashley should probably do the short and Gracie the long if you look at their recent results.
     
  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I think that would be the perfect arrangement. Wow Ashley morphed into a really strong short program skater finally in her career at just the right time to save herself.
     
  11. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    Definitely! Even with mistakes Gold is outscoring Wagner in the FS...

    Once Gold gets a strong SP, that'll pretty much be it for Wagner as US champ

    The big question is, can one (or both, even!) make a run at an Oly medal - or perhaps a post-Oly world medal? This may be the perfect opportunity for the US to get back on the podium again with no Kim, etc. (Since it's in Japan I'm assuming Asada will still go)
     
  12. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Top skaters who are retiring usually (although not always) go to post Olympic Worlds so I wouldnt just presume Kim and Kostner wont go. Kim went in 2010 when she probably assumed she was retiring right after, and it was tougher for her to go that year than it will be any year of her career probably, so I will be surprised if she especialy doesnt.
     
  13. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Kim was quoted in a post-worlds article as saying she really cherished the experience of this worlds because it was her last one.
    Of course she could always change her mind, or be pressured into changing her mind. :shuffle:
     
  14. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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  15. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    No. The other problem was Ashley was way below Mao, Carolina, and Yuna on PCS and between the SP and the LP, she was about 7ish points behind Mao, 10ish behind Carolina, and 12ish points behind Yuna. Although Ashley had the 4th highest PCS in both the SP and the LP, she will need to do some more if she wants to challenge them for a medal. I never really noticed this until I watched all the worlds videos, but you can really see the difference in skating quality between Ashley and the top 3. The top 3 are just so much better when it comes down to skating skills. Just watch a video of Ashley in her SP and then a video of Carolina during her SP and it really becomes evident.

    Other than that, I feel that Mao was underscored on PCS in the in the SP and the LP. Does anyone else agree? I was kind of shocked that Carolina and Yuna were both ahead of her in PCS.
     
  16. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Hmm I had thought what she said was it could have been her last one, not that it was. Anyway I guess we will see. I suspect the Korean federation would not be at all happy with her not bothering to go a Worlds a mere one month after the Olympics though to keep more spots for Koreans for next year, and wanting or not she will be there. :lol:
     
  17. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    The huge problem for Ashley is that Mao, Carolina, and Yu Na are infinitely superior to her in both technical and presentation ability. She really has no place to go against them. In PCS they will score much higher as they have better skating skills and are better packaged skaters. In TES they obviously all have bigger tricks and jump content, and stronger non jump elements than she does. So she loses out on both sides, and needs alot of help. It was one thing when Mao and Carolina were doing watered down content, but now that they are pulling out the big tricks it really isnt a contest if they make comparable mistakes and performances. The only saving grace for her is Mao and Carolina never skate cleanly, even their better outings have a couple mistakes, and sometimes they can really crumble. So they can give her the opening perhaps, and she has to be ready and jump when it calls. Yu Na does not meltdown ever, especialy now that she is back and fully focused, so she really is out of Ashley's reach completely, even if she improves.

    Then on the other side you have Gold, Tuktamysheva, and Sotnikova who are already much stronger technically than Ashley, and are maturing all the time and closing that PCS edge she has currently. Ashley needs to improve technically in the off season, and she cant rely on a big PCS forever against these more athletic youngsters. Osmond also lacks technical content relative to some, but she can already outscore even a good Ashley as the SP at Worlds showed. The young Chinese skater had an absolutely beautiful LP, excellent technically and artistically, which will probably score over 130 if she does it a second time. Then there is Murakami who did actually finish ahead of her at Worlds, although with her jump issues she is easily beatable by Ashley if Ashley puts it all down.

    In short Ashley really has her work cut out for her.
     
    TheIronLady and (deleted member) like this.
  18. Mayra

    Mayra Well-Known Member

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    I'd love to see Gold go to someone like Dickson or Isley for choreography. Shae-Lynn Bourne? It is very obvious that while her current coaches have done an EXCELLENT job teaching her the basics, there is an artistic element missing to her skating that might be helped with some outside influence. IMO
     
    TheIronLady and (deleted member) like this.
  19. FSfan107

    FSfan107 Well-Known Member

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    I think Gold has a shot at an Olympic medal if one of the big 3 were to slip up at the Olympics. Gracie has the jumps, speed, and spins (loved the spins in her long program on Saturday). Of course she has had a big lack of choreography and artistry in her programs, and I hope this is one of her main focuses in the off-season. She also has to continue to fight her nerves but I think she showed growth over the course of the season in this regard. She was fighting the nerves on Saturday and had some minor errors but was able to avoid the bigger mistakes (and more importantly, she rotated all of her jumps to receive credit).
     
  20. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    Alleluia!, Phil Hersh is a moron.
     
  21. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Well-Known Member

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    I would say that at this point Gold has her work cut out for her more than Ashley does. Ashley has shown she's got the technical goods based on practices at worlds, but she needs to get those in the program starting right away next season. Apart from that she needs rest and continued improvement in all aspects.

    Gold on the other hand has all the technical goods and then some but she is still learning to compete. That's not easy, especially going into Olympic season. Hardest thing though, is for her to metamorphose into the artistic skater it will take to challenge the top guns for prized podium spots. I don't think she can do it on technical goods alone, so she needs a Kwan-esque change going into next year....not so easy to do.

    They both have their work cut out for them, but I personally think Ashley will rise above again next year. Anyone else's thoughts?
     
  22. Cachoo

    Cachoo Well-Known Member

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    This.
     
  23. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    FWIW, Ashley said she scheduled too many non-skating appearances this year and it wore her out. Next season she will be getting more rest and hopefully performs even better.
     
  24. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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  25. B.Cooper

    B.Cooper Active Member

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    Is Wagner realistic? It is the lead in to the Olympics...the non-skating related events will escalate...and USFS WILL expect her to participate. Media events galore. She will need to find a way to stay focused...as the distractions will be there, she will have to compartmentalize them better.
     
  26. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    Do you know when she said this and is there an article link for this?

    Wagner still has World Team Trophy, April 11-14, in Japan (if she chooses to go) and the Canadian Stars on Ice tour, April 19-May 10, coming up.
     
  27. Chris_E

    Chris_E Active Member

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    I read it as well but don't recall where. I think she was specifically referring to events in the fall which she thinks contributed to being exhausted for the GPF.
     
  28. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    Making their international debut for Team USA at Gardena Spring Trophy, April 1-3 in Italy are:
    Junior Ladies: Polina Edmunds J1 at Nationals
    Adv. Novice Ladies: Karen Chen J4
     
  29. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. I wonder why we are sending Senior Men but no Senior Ladies. Same thing happened at Challenge Cup. I would have been a good opportunity for someone like Caroline Zhang to try and get a good score heading into an Olympic season.
     
  30. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    I posted a possible reason why in the U.S. Men's news thread in GSD: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/sho...l-discussion&p=3880111&viewfull=1#post3880111
    ISU Season Best scores aren't counted at Senior B competitions like Gardena, only ISU World Standings ranking points for the top 5 finishers in Senior.

    ETA: Zhang already competed in a Senior B and 2 Grand Prix events this season. The main purpose of the spring assignments to give the younger skaters their first international experience ahead of the JGP or to give Senior level skaters who did well at Nationals their first international assignment of the season.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013