U.S. Ladies [#7] Wagner's Rink Cycle

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Vagabond, Feb 10, 2013.

  1. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

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    Grrrr Russian podium sweep (not that I don't love the Russian girls...but we were SO CLOSE to a medal!).
  2. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    We got hosed. I guess the judges love tiny girls who skate right through the music with small jumps. I can almost see this being like when the US swept the podium a couple times a few years ago. I was not impressed with the Russian girls. When the crowd is booing it's not a good thing. And i doubt if it's because someone with a Italian name got shafted.
  3. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    "We" didn't get hosed. Samantha Cesario lost out on a chance for bronze due to 5 under-rotation calls (4 on triples) and what appeared to me to be an under-scoring of her PCS marks. It was a :kickass: "Black Swan" performance by her, just like at Nationals!
  4. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    Given the fact that the JGP final champ and 2nd place finisher are competing here along with the reiging jw champ, the Russian sweep is not that surprising. The US team and the Canadian team did about what was expected of them.

    The Japanese team has got to be the most disappointed, along with the Korean team--rather disappointing results given the promise these girls showed in jgp.
  5. oleada

    oleada Well-Known Member

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    Samantha also left a tons of points on the table with her spin levels. The top two ladies got about 1.5 more on TES on the layback spin alone.
  6. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Russian chicks rotated their jumps and got the levels on their spins, Samantha didn't, I'm failing to see the wuzrobbing? Samantha was 2nd in PCS, which given Radinova's skate was fair. I would have given her higher PCS, but the marks for this competition as a whole were conservative so it's fine. It's not like Julia or Anna got that high PCS anyways, 52 and 49 is fine for where there skating is at, 6s are not huge PCS marks and they have good past results helping their reputations. Plus they both attempted 7 triples and 2 double axels not in sequence, while Sam only attempted 6 triples and her double axels were in sequence and therefore worth less. I wouldn't call Anna's jumps small either, they might not be the prettiest but some of those jumps were pretty big like the 2nd lutz and the flip at the end. The commentators were even commenting on how she had a lot of power.

    URs and missed spin levels are the reason Samantha hasn't competed on the GP yet and why she didn't place higher at Nationals - it's something she needs to work on and I'm sure she realizes that now. The margin between her and Pogorilaya was not even that close, for Samantha to have won she would have needed 6 more points in PCS and she already got 3 points higher than Anna in PCS as it was, I think 9 points is excessive as that would mean Sam would have gotten 58 for PCS which at a junior event is practically unheard of. I agree that the judging system maybe needs to be altered so that URed jumps can still get +GOEs because what I saw from Sam was some big, pretty jumps that were nicely landed but a bit short of rotation. Look at the protocols and you'll see the GOEs for Julia and Anna were fair, Anna did get lots of minuses for her jumps, but the fact is she still landed and rotated 7 triples including two 3lutzes taken off the proper edge and two 2axels, got level 4 for two of her spins and level 3 on the other, and level 3 for the steps. Given that, the fact that she placed 3rd with a score of 160 I'm failing to find unreasonable? And Julia scored 165 which is also fair..
    mag and (deleted member) like this.
  7. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Christina Gao is the latest skater to be featured on the Boston Nationals website: http://www.boston2014.com/featured-skaters/christina-gao/
    To those who asked earlier, she is taking this (spring) -- as well as the fall -- semester off (she alluded to it in the Harvard Gazette article I posted).

    ETA this tweet by @SammiCesario:
    "Thank you for all of the support & kind words.. It's been a great season and I had fun out there tonight :) #JWMilan13"

    This Junior Worlds Ladies' FS recap article includes quotes from Cesario, Hicks, and Siraj: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130302&content_id=42209294&vkey=ice_news
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2013
  8. Loves_Shizuka

    Loves_Shizuka Well-Known Member

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    :confused:
  9. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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  10. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    Do they give small medals for the SP at Junior Worlds?
  11. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Yes, for both the SP and FS portions.

    Cesario is currently #23 on the ISU SB list (see the updated SB thread in GSD) but could be considered as a host pick for Skate America.
  12. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    Having seen Sam at nationals and jw, I think she stands up well to pressure. That said, the technical aspect of her skating needs to improve. I mean not just jumps, but basics and spins and all.
    I'm okay with Sam doing just sr B, as much as I root for her having a host pick.

    Interesting that none of the US ladies (ETA: at junior world) surpassed Miller's or Wang's season's best--doesn't that mean Miller and Wang stand a better chance at a gp? (Of course, that depends on what happens at WTT and worlds too)Wang is on the cuff, but I hope her score holds up (fingers crossed). She has the technical ability to do senior and I hope she will.
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2013
  13. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Well, based on conversations in the men's thread, it sounds like if someone is top 24, they have a good shot at being invited to a senior GP?

    Anyway, reflecting back on Jr. Worlds, I figured that considering the presence of Radionova and Lipnitskaya, the best any US lady could've done was to snatch a bronze, so sending Hicks and Cesario (and the fact that they finished 4th and 5th) wasn't a real disappointment at all.

    I'm admittedly late to the conversation re Siraj, though, but I think that the USFSA could've sent either Miller or Wang as the 3rd entrant. Another example that the 'Nationals take all' mentality' by the USFSA needs to be revisited.
  14. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    I did wonder a bit about Yasmin's small jumps at nationals, but her basic skating is sooo good compared to other US ladies I find it hard to begrudge her her chance at junior world. I feel for Wang though--last year her nationals placement was good enough but USFS skipped over her to pick Lam based on JGP results; yet next year, her jgp results were good enough but USFS used nationals placement instead. That's why I hope she gets a gp next season.
  15. bek

    bek Guest

    And nine points is excessive when you consider that its not so much that Samanatha is the better skater. In terms of speed/power. As much as she's just the more mature performer. I found Anna a bit sloppy but well this is JR and she's quite young. How much can you penalize a girl Anna's age for being like that-at that age. I can see why the judges would look more at basic skating than maturity in Juniors.
  16. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    Throwing my $0.00 cents in as well as regards the results of Ladies Jr. Worlds Result, which I watched late last night on youtube (thanks to MaoFan). :)

    Samantha Cesario did UR a lot of her jumps, at least those shown on replay, which I slo-moed (they were not 90 degress around or less, rather less than 180 degrees, but more than 90 degrees, unfortunatey, she'll have to work on that). BUT, her presentation and overall clean skate in terms of no obvious bobbles/mistakes outclassed that 3rd place horrible skate from that Russian skater that had so many *obvious* stepouts and hiccups in her skating. *yuck* :p

    However, I have no problem with #1 & #2, they truly are jr. skaters and skate jr, small jumps, especially from the #2 skater, and the #1 skater reminds me of Tara Lipinski. On that note I would have given NONE of them (+) GOE on their jumps. They were rotated, yes, but certainly not in the category of an Irina Slutskaya or a Julia Sebestain, not to mention G.G. or even Courtney Hicks when it comes to power, height, and depth. But like I said I have no problem with them winning (i.e. #1 & #2) because first off they rotated their jumps and also skated cleanly, which wasn't the case with the rest of the field. Jmho.

    Now onto Seniors and BIG WORLDS! :cool:
  17. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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  18. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    ^ As for Wagner 3-3 & 2A/3T, I'll believe it when I see it/them.
  19. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Why split her focus and practice 2 new combos? She could use the 3flip3toe in both the short and the free.
  20. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    Would that be a wiser strategy point-wise?
  21. AxelAnnie

    AxelAnnie Well-Known Member

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    Boy, were it me, and after the season she has had, I wouldn't be training that 3/3. She is either smokn' good, or smoking something else. I just hope she is in fabulous shape and skates great....Love her to grab a podium spot.
  22. Loves_Shizuka

    Loves_Shizuka Well-Known Member

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    Could really pay off - could be her undoing. I like the more aggressive approach; good for her!
  23. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    1st level strategy: since tagging a 3toe after any jump gets the same credit, it's best to tag it after the 2axel to maximise consistency. i.e. 2axel3toe and 3flip2toe get the same scores as 3flip3toe and 2axel2toe

    2nd level strategy: for skaters like Wagner who aren't natural jumpers, it's hard enough to learn one big combo, let alone two. Best to stick with one for both programs.

    On some level, I think Sot, Lip and Gold etc switching combos between short and long has reduced their consistency on those combos.
  24. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    It sure his going to be an interesting Big Worlds, my only hope as regards Ashley (& for that matter G.G.) is that they both rotate their jumps (look what happened to Cesario at jr. worlds) and skate *clean*. Once that is done let the chips fall where they may. :smokin:

    BRING IT ON, BRING IT ON!!!!:kickass:
  25. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Unfortunately, this is what we have to do.

    Very interesting point. A clean 3-3 in the LP might indirectly boost her PCS a little as well. But, would the mechanics really be all that different if she is solid and can do both the 3f and 2x in her sleep?
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2013
  26. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    Good, at least Sam gets some kind of medal (a gold one!)
  27. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    If Gracie improves her all around skater next season Ashley will have no option but to start doing 3-3 combo's or perhaps start getting beat by her own teammate.
  28. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    but will she ? she isn't getting younger and the younger teens will be nipping at her heels soon as they get more experience
    I don't think Wagner will be that much of a factor after 2014, Graciie I will agree is the future
  29. Mayra

    Mayra Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it's just me, but I doubt either girl's training environment is revolving around each other. Worlds is just around the corner and both girls are probably training to skate and place as high as possible vs the Worlds best and not thinking about a competition nearly a year away vs each other. That involves improving PCS for Gracie and TES for Ashley. I realize US fans like to fan the rivalry flames, but they are not each other's biggest obstacles at this time IMO.
  30. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    It's always interesting to check out the World figure skating medalists list throughout the years:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Figure_Skating_Championships

    It looks like the U.S. ladies' eight straight World bronze medal wins from 1984 to 1991 is a record (not much talked about). We hear more about the U.S. ladies' sweep at 1991 Worlds (which was a fluke due to Midori Ito falling out of the rink in the sp). In addition six straight gold medal wins are shared by U.S. ladies, Tenley Albright in 1955, and Carol Heiss from 1956 to 1960 (Tenley also won gold in 1953). Heiss set the record for 5 straight golds coming after Henie's earlier all-time record of 10 straight golds (of course Henie's 10 straight gold medals are reportedly somewhat questionable due to her father's involvement with officials). Then of course, Michelle Kwan tied Heiss' record of 5 World golds, although Kwan's victories did not come in 5 straight years.
  31. Karpenko

    Karpenko Well-Known Member

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    The 3flip/3toe in the SP and 2axel/3toe in the LP is what she's been training (and attempted last year when she won 4CC over Mao) for 2 seasons now and they are not new combos for her. I'm a bit :confused: why there is this panic as if its new difficulty. If she wants to be in contention to be World Champion, she will need both. I would love to see her medal at this Worlds, she will need to attack the hell out of it though. I think she can do it. :cheer:
  32. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    Oh you know, we need a bit of drama the week before the Worlds. And why not throw in the old "Ashley is over the hill and can't hold it together against some mysterious US teens nipping at her heels." I wonder who they are, Gold who has a lot to prove, aside.
  33. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    They are not new combos for her, but she rarely attempts them, let alone lands them cleanly. Her attempts at WTT last season was closest since her break through, but even then she got negative GOEs on them. And those were her 3rd attempts at competitions last season.

    This season she has yet to attempt them at all.
  34. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    I think Ashley hit the 3f-3t at '12 WTT, and I also remember her doing one during the '10 - '11 GP season when she was still coached by Priscilla before receiving improved jump technique from Nicks. It's probably not a matter of her track record at this stage, it's a matter of where her head is and what she is laying out on practice ice right now in full run-throughs (which we don't know) because she historically seems competitive and ambitious. She has nothing to defend at Worlds and she is chasing Kim, Kostner and Asada score-wise which is a good position for an ambitious, competitive skater to be in. Skipping 4CC's was a good move. She will have had 6 weeks to regroup.

    Hopefully, the USFSA or outside figures aren't putting the magic # 13 pressure on her (or Gracie for that matter), that's the one thing I can see clouding her (or Gracie's) mind as they step on the ice.
  35. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    For me Ashley's 3-3s (and 2A-3T) are like Kwan's and Slutskaya's. They couldn't depend on them, they trotted them out once or twice a season during the biggest comps and hope they suceeded.

    Fast forward for a decade and a half, and ladies are doing them in every competition, both short and long programs. The level of consistency is simply not the same, and Ashley doesn't have the confidence on the 3-3s that Tukt/Sokt/Gold/Kim/Suzuki/Osmond etc have. I'm not putting her down, I just think her strengths are mature, seamless presentation , not 3-3s, and she should stick to her strengths. By doing so, I think she has a good possibility of beating the majority of Sokt/Tukt/Gold/Suzuki/Murakami/Osmond. All those girls seem much stronger at the 3-3s than Ashley, but they are more likely to make mistakes elsewhere, and have more errors overall, which negates the points earned on their 3-3s relative to a clean Ashley. In short, skate smart, not hard.
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2013
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  36. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    I don't foresee Team Wagner taking any massive risks. If anything they're more likely to play it safe if she isn't showing consistency on them.

    At the same time, she knows better than anyone else that if you want the title, you have to skate for it, not play it safe and hope others screw up so you can back into it. Now, the latter has happened, but it is the exception rather than the rule.

    If she wants to be 4th or 5th again, playing it safe might be a good idea. But if she really wants to challenge for a medal, it's going to take more.
  37. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    ...which is an interesting situation: Is there any pressure to get 3 spots put on individual skaters by the USFSA? If so, team Wagner might go for 'safe' but as I said, it really depends on her mindset and what she's been doing in practice the last month.
  38. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    From Wagner's pre-Worlds media teleconference call (link to listen was posted earlier) in reply to the question of "How much is it weighing on you?":
    "I was personally affected the most directly from only having 2 spots going into the last Olympics and this the U.S. ladies' last shot to get that third spot back. So there is definitely a ton of pressure at this competition and I think that the U.S. is sending a very capable team. I think that Gracie and I, as long as we skate solid performances, we'll be able to accomplish that. but I am definitely aware that there is a lot at stake at this competition."
  39. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it's a wise decision to throw in a 3/3 that you haven't done all season. Ashley should play it safe. Even if she gets 4th or 5th, everyone will be happy because it's a solid contribution to getting the third spot.
  40. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Wagner stated in her media teleconference call that "Mr. Nicks calls the shots and going into Worlds he'll make the final decision" [about trying the 3F+3T in the SP and/or 2A+3T in the FS]. She has been consistent in saying this all season long.