U.S. Ladies [#6]: "Swaggering with the S'Wagner" et al. into 2013

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Sylvia, Nov 25, 2012.

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  1. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    It's not so meaningful to compare scores across competitions.

    Well, Gao managed a clean competition at Skate America and made GPF, not to mention barely missing a thing at the free skates at her GPs and GPF, so I would definitely have her ahead. It wasn't so much the fact that she had less competition at Skate America (or that some of her competitors bombed), but more the fact that she skated very well there that she won the silver.

    Gold won 2 silvers coming into Nationals and landed a hard 3/3 at each of her competitions. I don't believe she received any < calls coming into Nationals. I do not get Zawadzki but she did manage an international win this season.

    Nagasu's best outing resulted in a bronze at NHK, but even then she had two triples called UR there.
     
  2. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    The only thing I want is for the US to gain 3 spots for Sochi. I don't even care about a medal at this point.
     
  3. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    It'd be nice if they did, but I'm pretty much past hoping by now. Merely showing up at worlds NOT injured is good enough for me at this point. :lol:
     
  4. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Progression of TES and Avg. PCS, including (% difference from USN), [bold]=USN not the highest TES score. Golds scores are broken down in detail elsewhere.

    Zawadzki: RC -> NHK -> USN
    SP: 33.01 (-8.88) -> 27.73 (-29.61%) -> 35.95; 6.80 (-11.79%) -> 6.82 (-11.33%) -> 7.60
    FS: 51.1 (-6.03%) -> 51.61 (-4.98%) -> 54.18; 6.92 (-10.50%) -> 6.84 (-11.67%) -> 7.64

    International judges consistent on Zawadzki's SP and FS avg PCS, despite large swing in SP TES. US judges rate Zawadzki between 10.5% and 11.79% higher than international panels.

    Wagner: SA -> TEB -> GPF -> USN
    SP: 30.58 (-13.60%) -> 32.52 (-6.83%) -> 34.95 (+.60%) -> 34.74; 7.51 (-9.32%) -> 7.64 (-7.40%) -> 7.87 (-4.26% )-> 8.21
    FS: 63.83 (+10%) -> 62.91 (+8.68%) -> 54.93 (-4.59%) -> 57.45; 8.0 (-2.95%) -> 8.08 (-1.83%) -> 7.82 (-5.21%) -> 8.23

    International panels Avg. PCS in SP trend with TES and close enough in FS. Her SP TES at USN were marginally lower than at GPF, but her FS was noticeably lower than her early GP's, although higher than for her GPF FS.

    Zhang: SC -> RC -> USN
    SP: 27.67 (+14.35%) -> 21.84 (-8.52%) -> 23.70; 6.33 (-3.9%) -> 6.08 (-8.14%) -> 6.58
    FS: 46.96 (-24.11%) -> 48.57 (-19.99%) -> 58.28; 6.24 (-7.34%) -> 5.44 (-23.30%) ->6.70

    International judges Avg PCS in SP trend with TES. Major dumpage in Avg. PCS at Rostelecom Cup, a .80 drop per PCS, despite over a point higher TES.

    Gao: SA -> TEB -> GPF -> USN
    SP: 31.01 (-2.97%) -> 26.48 (-20.58%) -> 22.30 (-43.18%) -> 31.93; 6.41 (-8.50%) -> 6.52 (-6.7%) -> 6.56 (-5.92%) -> 7.00
    FS: 60.64 (+2.21%) -> 57.25 (-3.58%)-> 55.90 (-6.08%) -> 59.30; 7.12 (-2.19%) -> 6.86 (-6.06%) -> 6.39 (-14.0%) -> 7.28

    International Avg. PCS very consistent despite big swings in TES, including big drop at GPF, and even small increases as TES went down. They seem to have made up for it the FS. Gao's USN FS TES were marginally lower than her TES at SA.

    Nagasu: COC -> NHK -> USN
    SP: 31.04 (-11.89%) -> 32.36 (-7.32%) -> 34.73; 7.18 (-3.27%) -> 7.21 (-2.9%) -> 7.42
    FS: 45.89 (-8.52%) -> 56.36 (+11.64%) -> 49.80; 7.23 (-4.76%) -> 7.40 (-2.41%) -> 7.57

    Nagasu's TES and PCS increased in the SP and FS. She didn't get much of a PCS bump from a 8+ point difference in TES between her two GP's, and her international and national PCS weren't much different, although they were very strong. Her USN FS TES was 6.56 lower than her highest GP FS TES.

    Since in no cases did the US judges give lower Avg. PCS than international judges, and in the majority of cases, the USN was the highest-rated technical performances, it's hard to see where the judges were gunning for one skater or another in PCS. The most consistent variances from the international scores were Zawadzki's: international judges thought she was a high 6's PCS skater, and the US judges thought she deserved 7.5+. The big variances were over Caroline Zhang's 5.44 in the RC FS, and over Christina Gao's 6.39 in the GPF FS, and in Zhang's case, her USN FS TES were significantly higher than in her GP, whereas the difference in TES between Gao's USN FS and her GPF FS was 3.9.
     
  5. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Here is an example of more inspired footwork that Gracie and her team might consider adapting for the "marching" section of Life is Beautiful, courtesy of Jeremy Abbott and his choreographer for his 2011 fs at 4CCs:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blc_I-vFCFo scroll to 2:30
     
  6. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    While it's not my favorite sequence from Jeremy, it's definitely better than Gracie's (this isn't a bad thing, Jeremy's musicality is better than most people's). I wonder what stops skaters from just taking another skater's choreo or footwork. What would the repercussions be? Obviously some fans and a few skaters would notice, but would it be that big of a deal? Copying is a form of flattery. Especially if she asked for permission from Jeremy, I bet she'd have his permission to use some of that footwork, being that they're in different competitions and he probably supports her trying to grow on the second mark.
     
  7. CatherineC

    CatherineC Member

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    Hello, I just wanted to ask, are there any videos of Ashley and Gracie from US champs exhibition?
     
  8. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    Did you try searching youtube? :)

    The music was:
    Ashley Wagner - "Your Song" by Ellie Goulding
    Gracie Gold - "Girl On Fire" by Alicia Keys
    Agnes Zawadzki - "I Will Always Love You" by Whitney Houston
    Courtney Hicks - "What Faith Can Do" by Kutless (she did a Rippon 3F under spotlight!)
    Polina Edmunds' performance of "I want to Hold Your Hand" (female rendition, according to TanithandBenFan) was chacked by NBC. :(

    Now that the exhibition has aired on NBC, subscribers to IceNetwork should be able to watch the entire show when it's put up in the coming week, I assume.
     
  9. CatherineC

    CatherineC Member

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    I tried on youtube, but I couldn't find anything, so I asked you.
    And I'm not Icenetwork subscriber :(
     
  10. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    Videos may turn up later on youtube, so keep checking.
     
  11. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

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    Didn't a skater (Brian Joubert maybe?) borrow a bit of Yagudin's footwork sequence for his "Winter" SP? I'm not sure if it was Joubert but I swear I did see a skater perform almost identical steps. I remember SOI incorporated that FWS from "Winter" into one of their group numbers. Here it is (@1:21):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jTbQWR63ZY#1m20s
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2013
  12. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Skaters use ideas, music, and movements from other skaters all the time. In a way, that's how the sport evolved/ evolves. IOW, jumps and other moves (including spins) were created from skaters experimenting, developing and refining, and then others copying their moves till they became standard, required elements.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2013
  13. triple_toe

    triple_toe Well-Known Member

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    Lori practically lifted Stephane Lambiel's Four Seasons and gave it to Patrick... The judges didn't seem to mind, although if I were Patrick, I'd have been pretty pissed that I paid $10 000 for that.
     
  14. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    I hope Christina Gao skates great at 4CCs. She was wonderful at Nationals and she should definitely have been on the podium. She always looks lovely, but her fs dress was a standout (chosen by Sarah & Drew as the best ladies costume at Nationals, just in front of Ashley Wagner's fs dress). I thought Ashley Cain's fs dress was also gorgeous.

    And kudos to Samantha Cesario for skating two beautiful programs, and especially for making that Swan Lake performance her own (coming immediately after Gracie's fs performance too). It was great to see Samantha build upon the energy in the arena and not be intimidated by it. Loved Samantha's gorgeous inside edge/ outside edge spread eagles (a great highlight).
     
  15. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    whoops posted this in the wrong area - delete-
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2013
  16. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

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    Bonaly seemed to incorporate some movements from Usova and Zhulin's Four Seasons although she was not as successful.
     
  17. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    :rolleyes: This music choice was in bad taste. More "hype" to go with "I'm Gold, I have the best last name ever," and the "angel who fell from heaven" comment from the commentator (Sandra?). My bf who doesn't even follow skating was appalled they would make a comment like that. Give me a break.
     
  18. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    ^^ Maybe she just likes that song.
     
  19. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I wouldn't be surprised if some of the coaches recommend that the skaters choose "inspirational" songs (gag) to motivate themselves. I wouldn't read it as a message to the world.
     
  20. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I'd go with a) She likes the song, b) it is motivational, c) she only skates it if she medals, which is pretty decent for a senior debut, so the message of the song isn't exactly untrue.
    (Personally I just thought it was funny how insanely crystalled her exhibition dress was - it must have cost a fortune, where her competitive costumes were pretty, but kind of understated.)

    It's like wearing a gold dress to the Olympics- it takes a bit of guts to do, but people read too much into it.
     
  21. mgobluegirl

    mgobluegirl Well-Known Member

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    She also skated this exhibition program (in the same outfit) for her performance on the Today Show on January 11.

    And if you look closer at each of the dresses she wore in competition at nationals this year, they've both got a TON of bling on them. Maybe just more understated since the color of the crystals matched the fabric. I did like her FS dress a lot.
     
  22. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I'd say the music was appropriate for that occasion too.


    I'll have to relook at the costumes, I just remember the chunky crystals, not all over.
     
  23. tonyahardly

    tonyahardly Banned Member

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    Surya Bonaly did a triple toe-triple toe combo in the short program way back at the 98 Olympics. It was considered then an easier combo than a triple lutz-double toe. I'm not impressed at all with triple toe-triple toe combos. I think it is playing it safe. Hell, Kerrigan did one in 94. I'd rather see a clean triple lutz or triple flip double toe combo in the SP. They seriously need to reconsider the values of jumps in the Code Of Points.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2013
  24. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm I think the values are good, but perhaps they need to treat the combinations differently so that a 3-3 is only worth ~.1 more than a 3z2l combo and ~.3 more than a 3z2t combo instead of .5 and .7 respectively. This would be because repeating a jump type in combination makes the combo a bit easier, also doing anything in combination with a loop, lutz or flip is harder than doing it in combination with a 2a, toe or salchow.

    OTOH, being able to successfully do lutzes - period - and in combination is already rewarded. A skater who can repeat the lutz in the FP has a big advantage.

    I think boosting the value any more might return us to the late 90s, where every skater had something they called a lutz, whether it actually was or not.

    They could equalize things a bit by leaving the values as is but requiring that one of the jumps in the combo be an edge jump.

    I'd like them make use of the SP that way, like requiring a flying spin or layback spin with an unchanged & basic position for 8 rotations or something. I think once you get into those difficult variations on the sit spin, for example, it's almost easier than the basic position. But I've never achieved those crazy positions or done an actual sit spin, so I don't know :)
     
  25. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    Oy vey, ladies and gents. I saw the post-Nats gala and Ashley had an issue with the axel again. I am worried. Hope she irons it out in time.
     
  26. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ I thought Ashley's skate in the gala was quite lovely. I wasn't paying much attention to any faltering on jumps, especially not in the case of the men who had just hours earlier completed their intense competition. I'm not so worried about Ashley. If anything, she needs to make sure she stays mentally strong and keeps up with the routine and confident thinking that has served her so well this season and last. I'm glad Ashley is taking the time to get completely healthy and in tip-top shape for Worlds.


    Also, ITA that Gracie skating to the Alicia Keys song was fine. I don't see anything wrong with her going out there and having fun skating to that song and being inspired by the lyrics. The important thing is balancing everything, being prepared for competition and being able to relax, have fun and enjoy the celebratory moments and her accomplishments. The media hype is gonna be there so it will be a challenge for Gracie to also keep that in perspective, and not allow it to over-define her.
     
  27. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't worry about jumps in an exhibition...

    What I WOULD worry about, though, is the fact that Wagner has fallen twice now in two consecutive freeskates.
     
  28. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    Agree. Unless a triple-triple has nice flow out of it, it's not pleasant to watch.
     
  29. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    And in exhibition--I wouldn't worry if it weren't the same jump, the 2A. :nervousing: Hoping very much she fixes it soon. Sending awesome axel vibes to Ashley. :inavoid:

    As to Gracie--that song is quite :yawn: with the nasal phrasing--that was Alicia Keys? :scream: Not that Ashley's GFB was that much better.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2013
  30. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    Well - I've quoted this many times, and I think it applies to both Wagner and Gold at this moment - "It's not how you START [the season], it's how you FINISH."

    For Wagner, it's proving she's not on a downward slope (continuing a concerning trend with past US champions)...that is, try not to finish weak after a strong start.

    For Gold, it's redemption from struggles in Canada and early at Nationals...that is, finish strong after a weak start.
     
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