U.S. Ladies [#6]: "Swaggering with the S'Wagner" et al. into 2013

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Sylvia, Nov 25, 2012.

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  1. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Just posting this here too since it's relevant.

    My ladies review: http://thenakedice.blogspot.com/

    I can't wait to go back through the thread and read...I'm still scratching my head and shrugging my shoulders over this one...:scream:
  2. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Thanks kwanatic. I enjoyed reading your round-up review. Great job of breaking it all down!

    Under the circumstances of what happened, and based on your summary, I wondered who you think should have won the ladies' event? We all know who USFS expected would deliver, and the two they preferred to send: obviously Wagner and Gold, (and in lieu of Gold, they clearly wanted to send Zawadski rather than Nagasu or Gao).
  3. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    Sadly, the general public,( who have no idea that the short program should be a factor in the final results at Nationals), will jump on the "Gracie wuz robbed bandwagon" that the Gold PR machine is pushing. This will serve to give her further notoriety and name recognition going into the Olympic Year. The best team Gold could have hoped for....thanks to the gift given to her by the judges...........
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  4. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Thanks aftershocks.

    You know, I asked myself that same question and I still don't have an answer. That's one of the reasons I'm so conflicted about the results. I don't really think Ashley deserved it based on the FS, but then again I wouldn't necessarily say Gracie was the clear winner either based on the on weak areas of her skating and poor SP. So who does that leave? Agnes? Courtney? Christina? I have no idea. I think Ashley was rewarded for her solid 12 months of skating and, given what's on the line, I agree with that. But that FS score was huge...but then again so was Gracie's...UGH!

    I may go back and play judge -- re-watch the ladies' programs and score them to see where I'd place everyone. I did that for the novice level competition (I was bored at work) and it was fun. Plus the majority of my scores were in line with what the judges gave.

    The funny thing about the novice level versus the senior level is the point spread in PCS among the judges. At the novice level, all of the judges' scores were within a point of each other. If you look at the protocols from the senior ladies event, you have judges handing out a much wider range of scores with huge gaps between some. Gracie's FS PCS ranged from 6.00-7.25 from one judge, while another judge gave her 8.00-9.00. That's a huge gap! Courtney's ranged from 5.75 to 8.75...again, another big gap. Are the judges even watching the same performances? It's just an illustration of how subjective and sometimes bias the scoring can be at these competitions.

    This judging system is so redonkulous I don't even know how to handle it anymore...
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  5. algonquin

    algonquin Well-Known Member

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    Can the Gold PR machine see that there are areas where their skater needs improvement? If no, then the same thing might happen at 4CC and Worlds.
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  6. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    :lol: I don't follow American pairs and dance, and while I love Davis & White, there is just no excitement when they are a whole skyscraper better than everyone else. [and if they don't win, something must be seriously wrong and I don't want to watch it]

    For the ladies, I (only) enjoy Gao and Cesario, but find the ladies judging all over the place, and am a little upset that Nagasu's rebound did not happen and that Wagner didn't redeem herself after GPF (and instead skated worse). Everything else was kind of dull. Wang expected threw the short program away and Gold and Zhang expectedly skated a strong but bland free skate. And I disagree with promoting Zawadzki and Hicks. Zawadzki doesn't have the jumps often and isn't sufficiently Cohen to afford those mistakes. Hicks (and her free foot) is simply hideous to watch even with the great spins, the speed and throw away style.

    I am looking forward to watching Baga but haven't come across a video of her skate yet.

    The judging for the men are also all over the place but that's for another thread. :p
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  7. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully Ashley can use this time to fully heal and stay injury-free so that she can train properly, like she had planned to for Nationals, (before her injury at GPF and food poisoning right before Nationals.)

    Fingers crossed we can see a strong, confident, healthy Ashley at Worlds so that she can whoop some butt!
  8. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I hate that Wagner hasn't tried the 3/3 all season - it makes her landing it at Worlds that much harder.
  9. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    :rofl: I know what you mean, great turn of phrase, Marco.

    "Are you Cohen enough?"
  10. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    The food poisoning prior to Nationals probably upended those plans. I assume she was going to try at least one of a 3-3 or 2x-3t at Nationals. Now, she's rightly staying away from 4CC's, but she'll have to really focus to add them by Worlds (where she will need them). But if anyone can do it, it's Ashley who can.

    Let's hope she emulates the Kween at Worlds in more ways than one! Let's also hope she shakes all the nagging problems by March.
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  11. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    I'm fully prepared for Gao to beat Gold and Zawadzki at 4CC and make her chalkage of being OTP at Nationals just that much more apparent
  12. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    I wish the USFSA would simply pick the team they want to send to Worlds instead of (apparently) encouraging the judges to manipulate the scores. They still could have sent Ashley, even if she didn't place first (or even second). There was no need to inflate her scores as much as they did. And Gracie was also gifted in her PCS score. Why? Because Canada gifted Kaetlyn Osmond with a 130? That's about how much sense the scoring results make!
  13. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I am thinking the 3loop 2axel sequence isn't such a good idea anymore for psychological reasons. I would rather she go for a 3loop2toe instead, or swap the loop sequence with the lutz so she gets distracted.

    Next season, she should toy around with a 2axel half loop 3sal or 3loop half loop 3sal, I think the success rate might be higher than any 3/3. I am surprised the 3flip3toe didn't come already given how big and consistent her flips have become.
  14. chipso1

    chipso1 Well-Known Member

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    You keep using the word, but what the heck does "chalkage" mean?? :confused:
  15. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    No matter what she says, if Ashley wants a shot at the top 5 at worlds she is going to have to add a 3-3 of some kind. Everyone has one or something: Mao (word is she's going for the 3A), Yu-Na (3Lz-3T), Carolina (3T-3T), Akiko (3T-3T), Liza (3Lz-3T), Adelina (3T-3T), Kaetlyn (3T-3T or possibly 3F-3T), Kanako (3T-3T), Kiira (is she still going? 3T-3T), Gracie (3Lz-3T)...

    Ashley has to add that 3F-3T to the SP and needs the 2A-3T for the FS if she wants to stay close...
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  16. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    There was a recent IN article that stated that just after the GPF, Ashley and her coaches went back and locked down the 3l-2x seq. to avoid it becoming an psychological issue. Now, she fell on the 3l preceding the 2x at Nationals, but I'm wondering if that was lack of training causing her to lose focus rather than any psychological barrier. My concern for Ashley is that she really needs to maximize points against the likes of Yu Na and Mao nearly at 2010 form, a resilient Carolina, and the Russian babies (Adelina and Liza) starting to nail their routines, and the 3l-2x seq. maximized points better than a 3l-2t.

    IIRC correctly, Ashley finally got the 3f-3t in the SP at WTT last season. I see a similarity in Ashley's approach to the big moves (3-3s) to what Kwan used to do. Let's hope it works out for her
  17. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Double post
  18. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    She also missed the 2axel after the 3loop in the run through practice at Nationals (which she also fell twice). (OMG she is channeling Cohen :p)

    Maximising points is good, but there are 2 parts to this: smart calculation, and good execution. If she is simply not capable of going smart because, let's face it, she is no Yuna or Gold when it comes to jumping, then she should strategise. The 2axel3toe is Tuk's and Gold's auxiliary trick and they could do it in their sleep, but it is Wagner's only big trick and yet she hasn't even attempted it once yet? All her closest competitors have landed a combo at least as big as 2axel3toe.

    I remember Wagner finally nailing the 3flip3toe and 2axel3toe at WTT, but that's the third competition she attempted them in (4CCs, Worlds, WTT) whereas this season Worlds will be the first and only chance she will attempt them. The odds are not good and she needs to really up the ante (ok we are back on the Kwan comparison :p).
  19. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Re-posting and replying to Marco's questions about Courtney Hicks here rather than in the Nagasu thread:
    The April 2012 article about Hicks' coaching change from Mr. Nicks to Ken Congemi mentioned that she was still planning to take one lesson a week from Nicks. She switched back to her old coach, Scott Wendland, who coached her at her 2 JGPs this past fall and Sectionals in November, before switching to Jere Michael and Alex Chang sometime before Nationals.
  20. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    But you could say that missing the 3l - 2x seq. in the runthrough was attributed to Ashley being out of sorts from the previous week's food poisoning. She was hitting the 3l-2x seq. at SA and TEB, and remember, back in 2010 when she was still with Priscilla Hill and her technique was a less solid, she was able to do that jump seq. So, hopefully it's just a matter of her being out of sorts.

    I agree that Ashley is not as talented a jumper as some, but she's gritty and determined. I hope she can do it.
  21. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I mean the horrible fall on the 2axel at GPF might have freaked her out. She was not able to complete that pass at either her run through or the actual skate at Nationals.
  22. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Wagner landed the 3Lo+2A sequence just fine in her final run through the day before the FS - it was streamed live and the following was posted in the 2013 US Nationals forum in Kiss and Cry:
  23. mgobluegirl

    mgobluegirl Well-Known Member

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    Maybe she's going for "chack"? As in Michael Chack, the 1993 US Men's bronze medalist. But I'm not entirely sure how pinky made the leap from a skater not being shown on TV when they probably should have to missing out on other things, like podiums.
  24. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

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    I'm not mad anymore, just annoyed with both results but especially Gracie's. The judges gave her a HUGE score to try to get her on the team even with the others yet to skate. It was pre-ordained that Gold was going to Worlds no matter what the others did imo and nothing is going to change my mind on that one.
    Agreed except for the placements of Nagasu and Zhang. They were probably scored as they should-but Wagner and Gold weren't which is what makes it very unfair.

    Kind of like Nagasu did when she won bronze at the 2011 4CCs over Flatt and Czisny. A redemption of sorts.
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
  25. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Yes exactly. Plus Christina deserves to be on a podium after TEB and Nats, where I honestly thought she should have been 3rd, oh well. Go Gao!
  26. mkats

    mkats New Member

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    :rofl: I always thought someone invented this term.
  27. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ I didn't realize that was the origination either. :)


    Thanks again kwanatic. Yeah, a lot to be said, obviously ... lots of rethunking, redonking, and debunking. :p

    Anyways, you've provided some good insights and food for chewing on, or gagging on. ;) You're right that it's hard to pick a clear winner. While watching, I thought Ashley would not win after the second fall (but, I mean Ryan Bradley, after botching landings on his two quad jumps in his 2011 Nats fp, still won partly due to his great sp and the fact he was favored that year). BTW, I was happy Ryan won (but sad for Jeremy who should have made the team that year, IMHO). And I'm happy that Ashley won in Omaha, but it's bittersweet -- I'm sure for her too. The dumping of Mirai contrasted with Ashley's fp marks was not helpful. I think that's partly why the expression on Ashley's face backstage -- she seemed to me not "smirking" as some have suggested, but sympathizing and also realizing that Mirai's lowball marks did not make justification for her own first place position any easier. Of course, Ashley has better programs and her overall skating in both programs was better than Mirai's. Not to mention Ashley's accomplishments and international standing both this season and last.

    Overall re the ladies results, I think the judges boxed themselves into a corner. They were generally conservative in their marks for the short programs but kinda went a bit haywire in the fps (especially for the singles events). They clearly wanted to ensure that Gold made the team after she redeemed herself in the fp. Obviously, Ashley was the expected and favored winner, and they did not wish to handicap her status. Many fans seem to feel that USFS should let the chips fall where they may re the competition, and then choose who goes to Worlds and 4CC based on overall season or career results and current World standing. Of course USFS does now say that only the gold medalists at Nats are guaranteed spots on the World team, but they also seem unwilling to fiddle with the tradition of top medal winners receiving automatic berths to the World championships.

    In the midst of all the brouhaha, I'd also like to point out that the USFS is not the only federation where Nationals scoring has been questionable. Obviously, ISU judging too has been notoriously booed, debunked and deconstructed (not to mention certain other high profile and unforgettable fs judging scandals ;)). So, although glaringly discomfiting, what happened at 2013 U.S. Nationals is nothing new. Although it is something that should be considered cautionary and not helpful for increasing the sport's fan base.

    The suggestions some have made for better explanation of IJS scoring for television viewers, is excellent advice. Ultimately, I'm not sure what the best resolution is, beyond everyone skating lights out. Even then, what the judges decide would likely still be cause for grumbling, because politics and subjectivity are always factors in the scoring. Certainly, it would have made the judges' jobs easier had their favored skaters not messed up in either sp or fp, or both (a la Agnes).

    I think Wagner vs Gold is a draw, and that Gao deserved to be in 3rd or at the least in 4th. And, based on her errors in both programs Agnes should have been in 4th or 5th. And based on her very good season and her excellent sp, and toughing it out in the fp, I feel Mirai deserved to be no lower than 5th. Courtney "Runaway Train" Hicks should have choo-chooed into 6th place, if that. :rollin: And Samantha Cesario, in 7th over Yasmin Siraj, in 8th.

    Another thought: It was cute hearing one of Gracie's coaches saying to her triumphantly after her fp: "You're Gracie Gold, you're Gracie Gold!" I think Gracie should feel quite happy with what she's accomplished and with the golden possibilities that sparkle ahead, but she also needs to keep her head steady and on straight. Because, Gracie's up against Ashley "Nike Girl" Wagner, Mao "Street Cred" Asada, "Queen" Yu Na Kim, Kaetlyn "Amazin'" Osmond, Carolina "Defending World Champion" Kostner, Akiko "Fiesty" Suzuki, Christina "How Now Harvard Girl" Gao, and scads of Russian Baby Ballerinas threatening to come into their own as Prima Ballerina Assolutas!
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  28. falling_dance

    falling_dance The Scarlet Unlettered

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    :eek: ;)
  29. michiruwater

    michiruwater Well-Known Member

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    Everyone does realize that Caroline Zhang was the bronze medalist at 4CCs last year? It didn't really help her this year. Just saying...
  30. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Her performances on the GPs rightfully negated any positive momentum from last season.
  31. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I don't think Nagasu was dumped so much as the judges didn't have much choice.

    By the time she took the ice there was virtually no space between Wagner and Gold, so either she would skate super strongly and win it all, or she would drop to third or below. With all the visible cheats, a poor program and lifeless skating, plus an unreliable Nationals record and not outstanding GP season, the PCS were more than fair.

    If Nagasu had skated like she did at 2010 Olympics or 2011 4CCs, I am sure the judges would be happy to reward her and give Gold a 4CCs spot instead. Darn the flu!
  32. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    I agree. The judges rewarded her for skating well in the FS, this situation was a bit similar to 2011 Worlds in that the points among the top 10 or so were very close. Pretty much the entire penultimate group, save Cain, skated lights out. Then so did Gao and Siraj, Courtney and Agnes made less errors than Mirai, and Ashley with the SP lead barely edged out Gold as it was, so Mirai dropping to 7th wasn't that big of a shock. She didn't seem really upset by her scores either, 173 is solid, it wasn't until she saw she was 7th that she wound up upset.
  33. Philly2034

    Philly2034 Banned Member

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    Excellent analysis!



    Hey everybody, bet you can't answer this question.

    The following are quotes from another forum.

    "She was never good enough even in her prime. She has never placed top 2 at Nationals even skating her best when the U.S were even weaker than today, and it seems the U.S is perennialy down to 2 spots. This year she wouldnt have placed much or any differently even skating her best, certainly not on the podium. So no hope for her."

    "Her story is a bit baffling. I know she has flutzing and UR issues, but the majority of her skating isn't bad."



    What skater am I talking about?
  34. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Caroline Zhang??
  35. Philly2034

    Philly2034 Banned Member

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    Actually, no. The skater that is being described is skater who just finished off the podium as a 19 year old.

    ASHLEY WAGNER.

    Yes, 2 short years ago, everybody was writing off Ashley Wagner...and she managed to pull it together and become a two time national champion.


    Never say never!
  36. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    LOL, that's a fun use of the search feature.

    Just to add to what Marco said, Mirai did have the 4th highest PCS. It was her TES that dragged her down.

    I would disagree, though, with your assessment of her GP season. I thought it was very good and reliable. Nothing brilliant, but a solid, respectable effort showing consistent improvement. Of all the US girls with 2 events, she did better over those two events than anyone except Ashley, I believe.
  37. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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  38. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    For someone not mad, you sure have posted this enough times:rolleyes:. As has already been stated she was given 3.5 points in PCS than her earlier GP, and she skated far better here. Her 7 triples were of high quality, and she got +GOE for them...Ashley, Agnes, Christina and Mirai did not complete triples of comparable number, difficulty or quality. She was careful to get the best possible levels on her spins and footwork too. Yes, she was generously scored in the SP, but had she not skated 'lights out' in the LP (or if Agnes has not botched up yet another LP), Gracie wouldn't be going to Worlds.
  39. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    Now that we know the origin, what does Chacking mean?
  40. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    I agree that Nagasu's jumps were judged fairly, but I think it's unfortunate that a lot of other skaters got overlooked. I thought almost every jump Siraj did was under-rotated by some degree, yet she got no downgrades. I think Cesario's first flip was also >> worthy. Then there's Hicks and I'm proud of her for fixing her flutz, but she shouldn't get anything higher than mid 5's for PCS. I think Nagasu should have placed at least one place, if not two places, higher than she did.
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