U.S. Ladies [#6]: "Swaggering with the S'Wagner" et al. into 2013

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Sylvia, Nov 25, 2012.

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  1. jjane45

    jjane45 New Member

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    So what happened to the icenetwork headline --- "Wobbly Wagner outlasts glittering Gold in Omaha. It wasn't her best skate, but Ashley Wagner earned just enough points to retain her U.S. title. Gracie Gold was..."

    I suppose they removed it quickly because of complaints?
  2. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

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    1. Jenny, I expected more from you.
    2. Ok, I get it about Ashley Cain. Still...she hasn't had that great a season, unfortunately.
    3. I second Tara Lipinski! She is actually a really good commentator.
    4. ITA that USFS manages to use social media and internet content very well. VERY well. USAG should take a leaf from USFS' book! And an IN app would be very nice, as it shows up pretty poorly on a phone (and not so well on an iPad, either).

    ETA:
    It's still there. :confused:
  3. jjane45

    jjane45 New Member

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    I read about it on another message board but got confused not finding it on google except in snapshot. So it was within a flash but not the actual article, thanks for your reply.
  4. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Did you ever watch figure skating competitions under 6.0?

    Expert commentators struggled mightily to explain results all the time, particularly when one skater's marks resulted in a reshuffling of the rankings of other skaters who had skated earlier. And even NBC is finally doing the work educating the audience that it should have been doing years ago; Andrea Joyce had a very good piece today about why it may be better to fall on a fully-rotated quadruple jump than to land a triple.

    It's a lot easier to understand that a Free Skate that earns a Total Segment Score of 121.36 is better than one that earns a TSS of 117.18 than it is to understand whether a Free Skate with technical marks of 5.6 5.6. 5.4 5.7 5.5 5.6 5.4 5.6 5.6 and artistic marks of 5.7 5.6 5.5 5.6 5.8 5.7 5.5 5.6 5.7 is better or worse than a Free Skate with technical marks of 5.5 5.7 5.6 5.4 5.5 5.5 5.8 5.6 5.6 and artistic marks of 5.8 5.6 5.6 5.7 5.5 5.5 5.6 5.7 5.7.
  5. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    There are still a few internationals where skaters can get the minimum scores, but USFS would have to beg the host for an exception to the deadline. If USFS stated an intention to send a Ladies skater to Challenge Cup, the week before Jr. Worlds in the Netherlands, then they could send Edmunds, since the deadline for sending in names is 1 February. It's Senior Ladies there, but Edmonds could either add a CH sequence to the end of her Junior FS, or, theoretically, she might be able to simply skate her Junior FS and take the time deduction if this wouldn't disqualify her, because the total score is irrelevant if she can make the Jr. Worlds TES FS minimum (35) without the CH sequence. Milan isn't far to travel from The Hague. Senior Ladies is 21-22 Feb, with exhibitions on 23, and Jr. Worlds Ladies doesn't begin until Friday, 1 Mar.

    ETA: I had read something about the Ladies' teams not being posted, and didn't realize they were and this is moot :eek:

    "She's so cute, I could pinch her cheeks!"

    "She has a twin sister in skating!"

    "She got 800 on her SAT's!"

    "He's deferred Harvard for a year!"

    "They have a cat named 'Wimpy'!"
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2013
  6. Fabrichnova

    Fabrichnova New Member

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    She pointed to herself when that comment was made, so it was pretty obvious she knows what level she was at as a competitive skater.
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  7. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Jenny is lucky she peaked in an era (2003-2005) where there was no depth after Kwan and Cohen at all. Today there might not be the super star but there is a ton more depth than there was then. Jenny wouldnt even be the bronze and pewter medalist she was those few years, if lucky she would be the Mrs. 6th and 7th place she was in 2000-2002 before the U.S ladies depth fell off. Gao is a better skater than she ever was and she cant get up above 5th at Nationals. With those fugly hideous jumps, and blah skating, Kirk would get nowhere today even without the big star in her way (it doesnt take a big star to put her down, what is her best Worlds result, 15th place, lol). Sorry if my post sounded harsh but it seemed like a fair rebuttal to her own ill spirited comments, and it is completely true.
  8. falling_dance

    falling_dance The Scarlet Unlettered

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    In fairness to Kirk, she was the pewter medalist in 2001 and finished 5th in 2002, making it to the World Championships in the latter year.
  9. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Yes she came 5th in 02 over Anne Patrice McDonough on a 5-4 split after Kirk skated 2 clean programs with 7 triples in the long, and Anne Patrice made 4 mistakes in her LP, LOL! In 2001 she came 4th after Cohen and a couple other contenders had to withdraw from Nationals. She was really the 6th or 7th U.S girl every year until Hughes retired, McDonough burnt out and soon retired, and Nikidinov's career fell apart with major injuries.
  10. falling_dance

    falling_dance The Scarlet Unlettered

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    You mean the ones she beat at 2000 Junior Worlds? :D

    Also, what Fabrichnova said in #726.
  11. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for posting, Sylvia -

    Random thoughts.

    Ashley - Per my earlier post, I'm glad Ashley is sitting out 4CC's. It's too soon to travel that distance to Japan (the Lion's Den) and face a strong Mao considering all of her strange circumstances lately. Let her hunker down and get ready for March. She WILL need a 3-3 in the SP and the 2x-3t in the LP, though because it looks like Yu Na and Mao are in their best shape since 2010, plus Carolina and at least one of the 'Russian Babies' will be a real challenge.

    Gracie - She MUST go to 4CC's to get a sense of where she stands in the eyes of Intl. judges against the strong Japanese ladies and Kaitlyn Osmond prior to Worlds.

    I'm very happy that Christina finally moves beyond Nationals and Jr. Worlds w/ her assignment to 4CC's.

    Junior ladies -

    Happy about Samantha Cesario getting an assignment to Jr. Worlds, as she will age out this year. She's too good for the USFSA to not invest in and give her the opportunity to get some points in preparation for her automatic promotion to Seniors next season. Yasmin and Courtney get the assigments based on their finishes at Nationals which is the USFSA's time-honored tradition. Angela needs to learn to deal with the SP and this is a light wake-up call.

    BTW, Scott mentioned in the broadcast that Yasmin has suffered injuries the past couple of years. This is probably what kept her down and hopefully, we will see her full potential now that she's healed.
    All around, smart moves by the USFSA.
  12. Philly2034

    Philly2034 Banned Member

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    There are a lot of eerie similarities between Kimmie Meissner, Alissa Czisny, and Ashley Wagner.
    In 2006-2007, Kimmie won a major senior international (4CC) and nationals, and placed 4th at worlds (with a score of 180.23).
    In 2007-2008, she did decently on the GP Circuit, but then went to the GP Final and didn't do well.
    In the 2008, nationals, she didn't perform her best, but still was good enough to go to worlds.
    At 2008 worlds, she performed poorly.
    By the 2008-2009 season, her career was basically over.

    In 2010-2011, Alissa won a major senior international (GPF) and nationals, and placed 5th at worlds (with a score of 182.25).
    In 2011-2012, she did decently on the GP Circuit, but then went to the GP Final and didn't do well.
    In the 2012, nationals, she didn't perform her best, but still was good enough to go to worlds.
    At 2012 worlds, she performed poorly.
    By the 2012-2013 season, her career was basically over.

    In 2011-2012, Ashley won a major senior international (4CC) and nationals, and placed 4th at worlds (with a score of 176.77.).
    In 2012-2013, she did decently on the GP Circuit, but then went to the GP Final and didn't do well.
    In the 2013, nationals, she didn't perform her best, but still was good enough to go to worlds.
    At 2013 worlds, she performed______.
  13. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    This is what I don't get. People are mad that Ashley won with 2 falls in the LP instead of Gracie winning with a fall and a pop in the SP.

    Yet, the men's winner performed perfectly, and people are complaining that Jeremy should have won because no way will Max get the 3rd spot back.

    A lot of contradiction going on.
  14. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    The interesting thing is that while all 3 had a rough skate at the GPF, only Wagner's effort was good enough for a medal (silver). In the other two instances the skater finished last...
  15. Mayra

    Mayra Well-Known Member

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    Minus the cheeks bit, nothing has changed.

    I'm paraphrasing from the broadcast on Saturday but...

    "She got a 100(!!) on math in her SATs"

    "Meeeeooowww" (It's still unclear who made the cat sounds, Scott or Sandra.)

    "She goes to Harvard and hasn't been to any of their games. Not even Harvard vs Yale."

    Gracie Gold fluff complete with twin sister mention.

    It's like they have a template of that they all follow. :lol:
  16. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    It was Scott. Christina will never live down that one. I can see her Harvard classmates meowing at her for a long time. :cat:

    I don't particularly mind the fluffs and background mentions. I really don't care what they blather about as long as they keep it short, which they don't.
  17. minignome

    minignome New Member

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    Quite honestly, my eyeballs are getting strained from all the rolling I do when I hear how hard COP is to understand. It's NOT. In the US we just have at least one commentator who would rather screech and gush than do his homework. The commentators have the planned element layout for the skaters programs. The elements all have a base value (and gee, yes, a jumps base value is 10% more if done in the second half of the program). How complex can it be to say ahead of time, skater A's planned program has a base technical value of 61 points. Skater B has a base value of 54 points. Point out a couple of times during the broadcast that there is a mandatory deduction of 1 point for a fall, and they can lose up to an additional 3 points based on grade of execution, and that the skater can get up to 3 points based if they execute the element perfectly. That way it's perfectly understandable if skater A has a more difficult program planned, has one fall and does everything else well, they can still have a higher technical score than skater B's program where there are no falls, but under rotations, shaky landings/traveling spins etc. I'll give you that PCS is a quagmire that they probably can't be easily explained, but the technical piece is not rocket science.
  18. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

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    I don't get 6.0. At all. I was too young during SLC to understand what happened then, too. At 8, it just didn't make sense to me. By the time I was old enough to grasp scoring, it was IJS, and I don't understand anything else.

    Where I can see the IJS problems cropping up is in levels (spins/footwork) and PCS.
  19. chipso1

    chipso1 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks! I had it open in a different tab when I was browsing FSU, so I just listened to the audio of it.
  20. query5

    query5 New Member

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    saw video of gracie and ashley free programs.
    ashley was held up because her 2 falls not only should have been ur. but downgraded as well
    hopefully she will do better at worlds,
    good luck to all
  21. RockTheTassel

    RockTheTassel Well-Known Member

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    I really don't see that many similarities. Yes, Kimmie went to Worlds in 2008 because skaters who finished ahead of her were too young, but she finished in seventh at nationals (compared to Ashley's first place finish). She went to the GPF, but finished a distant sixth (compared to Ashley's second place finish).

    The Alissa comparison is a bit closer, but Alissa had more struggles last season than Ashley did this season. And Ashley's never had the kind of meltdown we've seen multiple times from Alissa.

    Even if they were similar, it's still too hard to predict. I'm actually not upset that Ashley had some struggles at the GPF and Nationals. It had to happen sometime, and it's better to work through it now than at Worlds. She didn't completely fall apart either, which bodes well for her. I think she's more of a fighter than skaters like Kimmie and Alissa (both of whom I like for different reasons).
  22. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Yes, and even though they are cumulatively similar and balance each other out points-wise, Wagner still landed more than twice as many jump passes in the FS than were falls, while Gold flubbed twice as many jump passes in the SP as she landed. The FS is a long haul, and falls take a lot out of the skater, yet she perservered.

    Mais non, Ladies is Ladies, and Men, who?

    I'm so glad I watched on YouTube with the Japanese commentary and will get to re-watch the IN archives when I'm back in Seattle next.

    Although I'm sad I missed scheduling the Men's broadcast, because I like to see them once on mute on a bigger screen.
  23. Philly2034

    Philly2034 Banned Member

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    Another eerie similarity.

    Kimmie did not go to Four Continents before 2008 worlds.

    Alissa did not go to Four Continents before 2012 worlds.

    Ashley isn't going to this year's four continents before worlds.
  24. triple_toe

    triple_toe Well-Known Member

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    You know what else is eerie? Both Kimmie and Ashley have an "ee" sound at the end of their names AND both have 2 syllable last names :sekret:
  25. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    And all three ladies are skaters!
  26. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    And ladies!
  27. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

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    Eeriest comparison of all: Ashley, Alissa and Kimmie are all human beings. :p

    Kimmie was in another universe. If I had to pick a current skater to be Kimmie, I'd pick Caroline. As for Alissa, she's beautiful and talented but quite fragile. Ashley's really not a fragile type.
  28. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    So does Alissa if you consider her last name...:eek:
  29. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Away

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  30. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Active Member

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    Most importantly Ashley no longer has to grow (ala Kimmie) and she's a fierce competitor as mentioned. Alissa lacks spine in competition but I will forever respect everything about her and adore her skating.
  31. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ :confused: I'm not sure what you mean by "lacks spine in competition." IMO, no one who makes it to the top levels of this sport "lacks spine," either in competition or off the ice.

    Perhaps you are fooled by Alyssa's sweet smile and angelic grace, but she's one tough cookie. Otherwise, there's no way she could have made it through last season suffering from the frustrations of a physical ailment that she wasn't even aware of until the disastrous end of her season. And, without steely determination and courage, there's no way she could have come back from that injury, the surgery, and the intensive training that was required to skate again the way she was skating earlier this month before she suffered the hip dislocation in competition.

    To the contrary of what some non-fans of the sport think, figure skating is NOT for sissies nor for people who "lack spine in competition."

    It's quite normal to experience nervousness in competition. And often the measure of success in figure skating depends upon an athlete's ability to make their nerves work for them in a good way.
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  32. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

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    I agree that Alissa has more intestinal fortitude than most suggest. I also agree that she's a strong person in many ways. However, she isn't always capable of dealing with her nerves in a way that benefits her competitively. As a competitive figure skater, that matters.
  33. El Rey

    El Rey Well-Known Member

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    Couple of clean skates does not equal a fierce competitor. Mostly she has a history of messing up.
  34. Spareoom

    Spareoom Well-Known Member

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    I don't see why anyone would doubt Alissa's determination and strength on the rink; she's been through a lot and frankly to not immediately retire after last Worlds takes a lot of gut. But that doesn't always translate to good competition nerves. Alissa for all her beauty and quiet strength always seemed to get the worst case of stage fright or whatever you want to call it.
  35. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    "We're back at the World Figure Skating Championships, where there's been an unexpected development. That's Dorothy Hamill, who should be beginning to skate right now. However, while we were away, a West German girl, from Munich, skated, gave quite a good performance. She got tremendous marks, 5.7's and 5.8's, and pulled up to third in the competition of those who have skated so far, but the crowd doesn’t think those marks were good enough, and they’ve been whistling and booing, which is European derision. Dorothy Hamill is really shaken by it, and it looked to us like she was crying and still is. It’s a really tough break for the American girl trying for a World Championship."

    "And that’s very close to Fratianne, but what’s going to determine it now is Artistic Impression, and that’s where Fratianne is going to have an edge. . . . Poetsch will be second, and Fratianne will win it."

    "And, again, the British judge didn’t like what the others did – 4.8 up to a series of 5.6's."

    "It will be interesting to see the ordinals here because she was behind Laetitia Hubert after the Original Program until Tonya Harding skated, and that flipped everybody, and Kerrigan ended up third."

    "Look for some giant, huge, high, enormous second marks! . . . . Oh! How did that happen? How did that happen? . . . . They won that program. There's not a doubt in the place except for maybe a few judges."

    "Frustrated by alleged deals and predetermined placements made by judges, for years Shae-Lynn Bourne and Viktor Kraatz have been fighting for the integrity of their sport."

    "The marks will not be high for her. She had a tough skate. 5.2 to 5.9?!" "My goodness, were they watching the same performance? Maybe that was her mother."

    :2faced:
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  36. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ If you are speaking of Ashley Wagner, a couple of less than perfect skates this season, does not erase all that she's accomplished over the course of her career, which btw has been so much more than a "couple of clean skates." It is definitely very easy for fans to sit back and make judgments about skaters, and I include myself in that assessment. However, I realize that what we all have to say is based on our sometimes erroneous perceptions and/ or biased preferences.

    We expect a lot from the athletes we've become accustomed to watching. I wonder how many of us have tried skating ourselves and come away with more respect for what athletes at all levels of the sport accomplish every day.

    In terms of managing one's nerves, I think Alissa, Ashley, Jeremy, Mirai, Caroline, Adam, and most skaters do a better job of managing their nerves in competition than many of us would be able to do skating under high pressure conditions, and having to face cameras and microphones afterward. Even when they fall, even when they are heartbroken upon seeing their marks, many succeed in making the effort to try again. In that respect both Rudy Galindo and Paul Wylie come to mind. Jeremy Abbott and Johnny Weir also come to mind. Alissa Czisny comes to mind, Janet Lynn comes to mind, and so on. If you are a figure skater you are going to fall, and you are going to receive scores that break your heart. Perhaps the more difficult thing for skaters is trying not to allow what judges think, what the media thinks, and what fans think, to crush their spirits or deter them from striving to reach their goals.

    I commend Alissa for not giving up when it would have been so easy for her to do so a long time ago. Kudos to all those who admire her talent, root for her, care about her, and to those who have supported and mentored her. She's achieved a lot and she's overcome tremendous obstacles. I feel fortunate to have experienced what Alissa has given to all fans of skating. A life in figure skating is never a slam dunk.
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
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  37. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Wagner scored 3 more points in PCS at Nationals than at GPF for a similar performance, with her falls at GPF being a little more disruptive. I don't think the inflation for Wagner at Nationals was unreasonable, keeping in mind her record in the past 12 months.

    Comparing Wagner and Gold head to head for the competition, both made 2 costly mistakes on jumps, with Gold making them at the supposedly costlier segment of the competition. While Gold had higher base values, Wagner was much more mature. If people think Wagner's presentation was contrived, it should also be noted that Gold was absolutely blank throughout. Overall, I agree with Wagner's win and her relative PCS advantage over Gold.

    Given Gao's season, I am surprised USFS decided to promote Zawadzki over her. Gao totally deserved that bronze IMO. I would have had Hicks at 4th and Cesario 5th.

    Siraj is a stiff version of Poykio. She had too many shaky moments but I would still have her 6th over Zawadzki. Zawadzki isn't that good or accomplished a skater who can make mistakes and still place high.

    IMO placements for Nagasu and Zhang are about fair.

    As to the podcast, I respect the opinion of the hosts / guests but I think the real issue isn't so much that the system sucks, but that there isn't enough explanation / information for what is going on. For one thing, the TV / jumbotron screen totally could have shown a break down of the 5 PCS and a short clip of < / << jumps that were called. This way anyone in the audience can enjoy a seemingly clean short program by Zhang but also witness the rotation issues on the big screen and thus understand why she got dinged. On TV, it really is the commentators not doing their job. They need to explain when someone has a lead over another person or when a jump is susceptible to calls. In this regard I think the British / Canadian commentators do a much better job.

    Overall, a rotten Nationals, but glad to see Cesario do well here finally and get to go to Jr Worlds before she ages out! Hope she gets GPs next season (and get a 3/3)!
  38. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ I agree with some of your assessments, Marco. Still, how could you call it "a rotten Nationals," with all of the great skates, and the high drama of the men's and ladies events? And for me, the pairs event was enjoyable to watch with some thrills and spills in the final as well. And, Meryl & Charlie are drama and excitement personified. And they always set a high standard that other ice dance competitors seem inspired by.

    Even if all of the results didn't turn out as you had hoped for, characterizing the entire championships as "rotten" is a rather "rotten" thing to do. :p But I still respect some of your other opinions, Marco.
  39. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    IMO Zawadzki well deserved her bronze medal in spite of the mistakes she made. I found Agnes's choreography, body movement transitions and skating transitions to be more complex than Gao's who I felt was rather stroking around the rink most of the time between the technical elements. Agnes also has a wonderful spring off the ice on most if not all of her jumps and doesn't telephone any of them, unlike Gao. I think the US judges got it right.:)
  40. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    So, here I go with my two cents judgments:

    ^^ I'm not so sure re whether Zawadski "deserved her bronze medal," especially because she made major mistakes in both programs (but I guess falling is not considered as serious a mistake as URs these days, especially if your name is Mirai Nagasu or Caroline Zhang). ;)

    Gao was obviously a bit tight from nerves, but I think overall she performed better than Agnes, and Gao also fared better on the GP circuit this season. To me, Agnes and Gao are fairly even in terms of components because I think both need to work on expressing themselves more fully (but that often comes with maturity). At this point, I think Gao is more musical with more innate interpretive abilities (that she doesn't always maintain throughout). Certainly, IMO Gao has better lines and aesthetic appeal. The thing about Gao that may be holding her back is her more subtle, softer approach to skating, while Agnes has more spring in her jumps and a more athletic approach. But that doesn't mean Gao is not athletic too.

    Bottom line it seems that USFS is more eager to reward "spring in jumps" and triple/ triples from the young up-and-comers.

    In any case, the judges have spoken and the results will stand.
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