U.S. Ladies [#5]: All That Glitters Is Not Gold

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Vagabond, Aug 24, 2012.

  1. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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  2. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    Great News for Mirai :) I hope she can continue building on her rejuvinated start at NHK.

    Does the host nation get to decide who to invite when there's a cancellation? I wonder if being of Japanese heritage and having toured in Japan as a charming youngster helped get her this invitation.
     
  3. Jarrett

    Jarrett Well-Known Member

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    Yes, they get to pick from the sub list which Mirai has been on the top of since... I dunno the beginning of the season, and French Fed passed over her 4 times. Lets go Mirai!
     
  4. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    ITA with what you're saying but I don't think Caroline is the best one to carry your example. The interesting thing about Caroline this season is she's landing and rotating the majority of her jumps. Her technique on her flip and loop is very good now. She gets better lift and height in both jumps and they have a decent amount of speed as well. Her axel is still small but it's better than it was two or three years ago. Her lutz is still problematic but I don't even think they've tried to correct it...

    Caroline's problem isn't her jumps right now...it's everything else. Her basic skating skills are so sub par that even when she lands the jumps she still scores at the bottom. She's uncomfortably slow on the ice. Her edging around the ice is weak; the only way she gains speed is with basic crossovers. There are no linking or transitions moves in her programs. She still skates "up" instead of "down"...there's too much upper body work in her stroking; she's never down in her knees and into the ice. Her programs are mostly bare, with just a few moves thrown in. The choreography is severely limited b/c there's only so much she can do. Caroline's lack of speed leaves a terrible impression on the judges and drags down every single aspect of her skating...even her spins have gotten weaker as well.

    To be honest, her jumps are the only thing that seem to be working right now. They could always use more speed and height but she's rotating them and landing them....
     
  5. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

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    I'm so happy for Mirai to get another assignment. She has been skating so well this season, with more attack and interest in her skating. The edge calls and URs are bothersome, because really some of those calls seemed way off base, and it looks like she's not going to be getting any brownie points, in fact just the opposite. But she's really turned it up this season. It's nice to see. I hope she skates just as well at NHK and doesn't get as hammered by the caller this next competition.
     
  6. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Well-Known Member

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    From experience as a skater myself and as a coach, even moderate weight gain (5 pounds) will make you look severely lethargic on the ice and give you the look Caroline Zhang seems to be having lately. From teaching these skaters, they'll usually still land the jumps but it's actually everything else that will suffer the most. Personally, my jumps are always much better when I am at a healthy weight as compared to when I was stick thin, however quickness on the blade and posture while stroking suffered with weight gain. In general extra weight just makes you feel like crap on the ice. :/

    Just my two cents, not trying to fuel anything about the weight discussion for skaters. As a skater it's very hard to find an ideal weight that lends well to everything in skating. I also feel bad that skaters have to see their weight being discussed although it is part of the sport...being aesthetic and all it is relevant.

    Also, my impressions of COR were that Gracie looked better on the ice this weekend than Agnes. I like both, although I am not a fan of either and am not biased. Agnes seemed shaky on the blade and "tight" as skaters will call it. I didn't get that out of Gracie who had better flow and ease in my opinion. I of course think Agnes has better edges in general but she was a bit tight.
     
  7. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Thought I'd post this here too. Cup of Russia ladies review.

    http://thenakedice.blogspot.com/

    Two competitions this season with two US ladies on the podium...is this a trend? :D
     
  8. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    I do not think there is anything wrong with saying a skater looks unfit. It is not the same thing as fat.. There are so many skaters who were not built like Sasha Cohen who had curvy womanly bodies, but were very very fit and looked like Olympic athletes-Irina, and Joannie, and Tonya (in her prime) come to mind. And now Ashley Wagner. She never looked large to me in any way, but she always came across as average body type (I am sure this was not the case in person) and then BAM last year she totally looked like a top tier skater-her arms and legs were more defined etc...it made such a huge difference watching her skate.

    Caroline's appearance just looks sloppy and I think it just enhances her poor skating qualities. Maybe it should not matter...but it does.
     
  9. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    Once again, to set the record straight, in her prime, there was nothing the least bit "curvy" about Rochette. She was extremely petite and solid muscle. Her arms were so cut you could cut steak with them. She is a slight bit taller than Megan Duhammel, but the same build in terms of muscle.
     
  10. emma1227

    emma1227 New Member

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    Really, didn't know that. Interesting...hope Gracie can stay healthy!
     
  11. emma1227

    emma1227 New Member

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    Really happy with the results of COR! What a confidence boost for Agnes, and so glad Gracie could bounce back. I'm starting to feel like our ladies program might be headed in the right direction.
     
  12. emma1227

    emma1227 New Member

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    Yay Mirai....wonder if Alissa will be ready? Her whole situation is a bit of a mystery...
     
  13. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Well, you're right, curvy isn't the right word, but solid or muscular is. I think the poster was trying to point out that she wasn't stick thin, well maybe in terms of minimal body fat percentage she was, but she wasn't built like a 12 year old or the Chinese pair ladies either. Not everyone is going to be built like Yu Na Kim or Mao Asada but you can tell when someone is in top shape, and just curvier or more muscular in build by nature, and it looks different than when that person is not in peak form. Caroline still had a womanly shape at Nationals last year, but she looked more fit and muscular compared to now. In her peak form, she will not look like Mao, but she does look a bit different from right now. I think that's all people are saying.
     
  14. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Yay, for Mirai! ITA ... I hope she skates well and it's a confidence boost for her going into Nationals.

    Great result for U.S. ladies at SA and CoR! Hope the confidence continues for Ashley and Christina at TEB. :)
     
  15. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    OMG you just won't let go! Have you ever seen Joannie and Mao standing side by side? I mean in real life, not on TV? I have and for what it is worth, I would say their measurements are probably very similar, with the exception that Mao is taller. All this talk about fitness and body fat and muscles ... You simply can not tell by what you see on TV, or worse yet a small computer screen. Let it go already! And while I am ranting ... How do you know that the jumps "come easily" to some skaters? How do you know "staying thin" is easier for some. You don't have a clue unless you are with them on a regular basis and they confide in you. All this speculation about skaters' eating and training habits is just that, speculation. And when it is speculation about teenage girls it can be dangerous and damaging!
     
  16. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    I went to 2009 4CC where Mao and Joannie both competed and medaled...so yes, I have seen them in person standing side by side. They looked different to me. Anyways I'm just going to shut up now because I can't win. But anyone who is at this level of skating is training a ton so clearly things besides diet and exercise are coming in to play. Have you seen the documentary why are thin people not fat? I digress..And I do personally know quite a few high level skaters so I hear things and yeah. Doesn't mean I'm right or that they are necessarily telling the truth but anyways, the only speculation I said regarding Zhang was that she looked more in shape last season around Nationals compared to now, and at that time, she looked to be in peak form, while still having a different body type from a lot of the other top skaters. That's it.
     
  17. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Would Mirai need to win NHK to make the GPF or could she qualify with a silver? Of course even that would be a stretch, but it would be cool if she could make the GPF!
     
  18. icellist

    icellist Member

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    Mirai would need a gold to make the GPF. I think it's safe to assume that Kiira Korpi, Mao Asada, Ashley Wagner, Akiko Suzuki, and Julia Lipnitskaya are going to make the final.

    With one spot left, I think the contenders are Elizaveta Tuktamysheva, Christina Gao, Agnes Zawadzki, and Mirai Nagasu.

    I don't expect Christina to medal at TEB. But she has the only silver of the bunch. She wins the tie breaker (because I don't expect the other 4 to win gold at their events either, and have a slight chance to win silver too). She has a pretty good chance of getting in because she skated at a weak event.

    Both Liza and Mirai earned the pewter at their events, but I think they're probably be bronze at their second event (especially if the other Agnes shows up at NHK).

    Statistically, Christina has a really good chance of getting into the final. But I'd like the underdog to get in: Liza or Mirai. I love Agnes but she's not consistent at performing. But you're basically seeing the 6th and sub list for GPF right now
     
  19. Jarrett

    Jarrett Well-Known Member

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    Christina may have skated at a "weak event" but her programs would have held up as silver at ANY of the events so far if she skated the same programs.
     
  20. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    But with the medals of Sotnikova, Gold, and Murakami not counting, couldn't that mean someone with a 4th and a 2nd could get into the final? So if Mirai were to get 2nd at NHK, she might get in, especially if Christina were to finish say 5th and be out of the running and Liza was 3rd or lower and also out of the picture. I could definitely see Wagner and Lipinskaya going 1 and 2, with Liza 3rd, then Christina 4th or 5th. If she's 4th and Mirai was 2nd at TEB, it would come down to the total score tiebreaker, but either girl would get in before Liza, and if Christina were to finish say 5th, possible considering Korobeynikova could feasibly come out ahead, then Christina and Liza would be out of the running and Mirai with a silver would likely be in. So I don't think Mirai necessarily has to win NHK to get to the GPF, it's just dependant on what Liza, Christina, and Agnes do, but Agnes with another bronze would still be behind Mirai with a silver so, really, I think Mirai could get in with a silver, as Liza getting bronze and Christina 4th or 5th at TEB and Agnes 3rd or 4th at NHK is very realistic IMO. Mirai's silver might be more far fetched but I think she could maybe beat Mao if Mao URs her jumps again and Mirai doesn't.

    I will say Christina does have good odds, because if Mirai is lower than silver, and she can manage a 4th, without Liza or Agnes getting a silver or higher, then she's probably in.
     
  21. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Not to mention much more confident.
     
  22. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

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    Honestly, I still consider Christina the underdog and I'd love to see her in the GPF.
     
  23. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    I would agree. I think it was probably easier to be in the underdog position last season, no one really expected much from her, then she came out and was fit, confident, and skating really well and took everyone by surprise. Now she's back to having 2 GPs and people have expectations and all of a sudden it's like she's gone back to the very self-conscious and visibly frustrated skater we saw in 2010-2011 and the beginning part of last season too. I think she must be injured, it would explain her spins being worse than usual, the pained expressions during her skates, the slowness and cautiousness, and obviously that can affect one's training. I don't think she's ever going to be a world beater, but it would be nice if she could show last winter wasn't a fluke and get back up to that level of skating and confidence.
     
  24. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    I think it has been noted in other threads that CZ is dealing w/ some sort of back problem although it hasn't been confirmed by Team Zhang that this is the cause for her early season woes, AFAIK. Maybe she can rest now and get ready for Nationals.
     
  25. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Okay, sorry to gush but I just fell in love!

    I've seen Haley Dunne's name mentioned a few times but I'd never seen her skate. I'm watching sectionals on Icenetwork and I just saw Haley's SP...ABSOLUTELY GORGEOUS! Just wow...so elegant and graceful, gorgeous presentation, her program was so well done, she connected to the music and the judges, and her jumps have a lightness about them that is so beautiful!

    I couldn't find her performance from sectionals but here's her SP from Liberty earlier this summer.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNXEdqmRUAY

    Sorry to gush but I wasn't expecting to see that kind of skating at sectionals! Okay, I'm done. :)
     
  26. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    Haley Dunne's 1st place Easterns SP (58.20) is up on IceNetwork for subscribers (maybe it will turn up on YouTube later) and was a really great performance! :) She didn't fare as well in the FS yesterday but she qualified for Nationals again at the Senior level.

    SENIOR LADIES Qualifiers to 2013 Nationals so far:
    Easterns 1-4: Samantha Cesario 163.53, Yasmin Siraj 151.35, Haley Dunne 139.69, Joelle Forte 136.47 [5th: Lauren Dinh 135.68];
    Mids 1-4: Ashley Cain 161.49, Becky Bereswill 149.44, Kiri Baga 141.42, Morgan Bell 133.06 [5th-6th: Carly Gold 124.28, Nina Jiang 118.42];
    Pacs Ladies 1-7 (after SP; FS is later today): Vanessa Lam 59.43 (highest SP score of all Sr. Ladies at Sectionals), Courtney Hicks 57.80, Sophia Adams 46.33, Amanda Hofmann 44.36, Carolyn-Ann Alba 42.24, Anna Malkova 41.53, Laney Diggs 40.01

    ETA final results:
    Pacs Ladies 1-4: Vanessa Lam 177.73, Courtney Hicks 161.72, Sophia Adams 131.49, Amanda Hofmann 122.29 [5th Laney Diggs 120.78]
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  27. missing

    missing Well-Known Member

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    I had the exact same reaction. In particular, I thought her layback was one of the best (possibly the best) I've ever seen.

    IceNetwork didn't show her freeskate, but I guess it wasn't as successful as her short program. But I'm eager to see how she does at Nationals.
     
  28. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Good to know she made it to nationals! She's such a lovely skater!:) Samantha was wonderful in the SP as well (very saucy and mature!) and I'm glad to see Yasmin recovered. Her SP was beautiful but she popped her lutz.

    Wow! Vanessa nearly got 60pts? Does that mean her jumps are doing better? At the beginning of the JGP she wasn't looking too hot... I need to go back and see that as well. If Courtney isn't leading that probably means she made a mistake.

    Yep, I'll probably be watching sectionals all day long...:p
     
  29. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Vanessa has a pattern of doing really well in smaller competitions, but then really underperforming on the bigger stage
     
  30. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Well this season it seems like she's teeter-tottering...

    She did really well at Glacier Falls (I think that was the competition) and then not so well at her one JGP event...now she appears to be doing well at sectionals....

    Has she competed since JGP Courchevel? I believe that was the first JGP event of the season...