U.S. Ladies [#5]: All That Glitters Is Not Gold

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Vagabond, Aug 24, 2012.

  1. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2011
    Messages:
    1,473
    I'd put Gold and Nagasu in the same boat for No.2, they have the potential of scoring high
    Zawadzki is not a contender, she can easily implode in FS, I'd have Gao and Wang ahead of her

    sad to say but I think Flatt and Zhang are done
  2. chipso1

    chipso1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,001
    Flatt is definitely out for the rest of the season to heal some nagging injuries.

    Zhang is going to need to dig deep and find some spark if she hopes to make the Worlds or 4CC team this year. She's looked absolutely dismal, which is a shame because she was fantastic at 4CCs last year.
  3. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,322
    No matter what she does from here Zhang can always be proud of her 2012 comeback. It was inspiring to watch someone climb out of the ultimate depths and even be a contender at the U.S level again. I tend to agree both Flatt and Zhang are done as factors, 110% certain for Flatt, 85% likely for Zhang. It is too bad she didnt mantain her early 2012 level of skating, as the U.S women behind Wagner are still shaky enough she might have gotten some real consideration for the #2 spot if she had (which she wasnt ever going to really get at last years Nationals no matter how well she did and how poorly others did, as we basically saw play out).
  4. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    916
    See I feel awkward right now. I never realized I quoted JJ and agreed so much or JJ quoted me and agreed. Unless JJ is playing games with me and knows me and has my cell number, we have never had contact before.

    But anyway, okay, I agree with JJ. Couldn't have said it better.
  5. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2004
    Messages:
    3,939
    I'll see how Zhang does at Nationals before writing her off for good...I almost certainly do not see her contending for a world spot though.
  6. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2002
    Messages:
    10,582
    Truer words were never written! I mean, COME ON USFSA. This is the year to let that 2nd spot be earned on the ice. I think all four are equally unreliable. I'm sure they want Gold to emerge as future star, but do they really want spots for the Olympics to depend on her? Go with whoever rotates their jumps, stands them up and skates like they want to be there.
  7. ambern024

    ambern024 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2009
    Messages:
    168
    i think the us best shots as of now to try and get 3 spots are Mirai and Ashley.
  8. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2004
    Messages:
    3,939
    The bolded statements contradict each other- it can only go two ways: either they score based on what they see on the ice, OR they pick and choose favorites.

    Nationals needs to be fairly judged. If Wagner slips up, penalize her appropriately. If the GP is any indication, though, she can probably afford a mistake or two anyway unless Gold skates lights out.
  9. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    4,235
    I agree with this.
  10. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2002
    Messages:
    10,582
    I think "it" means the 2nd spot.
  11. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2004
    Messages:
    3,939
    Doesn't matter - can't request fair judging and then in the same breath ask them to "protect" skater X in case she slips up...they can do one or the other, but not both!
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2012
  12. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,784
    Remember the year that Miki got the Olympics spot because she medaled at the GPF? It does kinda make sense...

    Let's see how Ashley does there, because that WILL make a difference in her Nationals PCS. But not sending the girl with the #1 score of the season for 2 seasons running and the best record of any lady internationally this season would be really hard to explain, IMO.
  13. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2004
    Messages:
    3,939
    This is a fundamental reason why I'm against the current USFS policy of simply sending the top finishers from nationals to worlds.

    When you place so much emphasis on one competition, what happens when someone who has done excellent all season long suddenly has an off-night at nationals? Whereas, if the world team didn't depend solely on nationals, there might be significantly less pressure on judges to hold up favorites (i.e. those who have skated well internationally) and more incentive to actually judge the competition fairly.
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2012
  14. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2009
    Messages:
    2,015
    It's amazing how fast people are going to write off Caroline. Almost no one had any faith for her last season or the season before that or even two seasons before the last one and she still managed to make a great comeback late in the 2012 season. Who says she can't do that again this season?
  15. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    1,064
    Angela Wang skated Senior last Nationals and is in the Junior Grand Prix Final in a few weeks. She also has verified triple-triples.
  16. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,322
    Well good for her if she can somehow skate as well as she did at Nationals last year, but even that netted her only 4th place in a really poorly skated event. This years event is likely to be stronger than last years, so even the same incredible skates (for her, given where she had come from, and where she would be coming from again this time) would likely not even net a result that high, never mind the 2nd spot on the World team.
  17. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2002
    Messages:
    10,582
    Well, you can request anything you want, especially since the judges certainly aren't taking requests from us.

    I think stating that Wagner should be sent to worlds regardless of what happens at Nationals is just common sense. It's the system of deciding the world team at Nationals that makes "protection" necessary.
  18. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2004
    Messages:
    3,939
    Exactly. Which just strengthens the point I made above about the big, glaring problem with using only Nationals to determine the World team.

    Suppose everything was judged fairly and the results turned out like this: 1. Gold 2. Nagasu 3. Wagner. Forget odds, likelihood, etc. and just suppose this happens. If we had some flexibility, you can send Gold as the champion, and then choose 3rd place Wagner over 2nd place Nagasu, citing better placements and/or higher scores on the GP (and GPF qualification). The way it's set up now, they'd probably boost Wagner's PCS or GOE to make sure she's in second position, robbing Nagasu of a deserved silver medal all because of how she performed on the Grand Prix. Rep Scoring at its finest. When does a competition stop being a competition and become a coronation? We just saw this at NHK.
  19. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2009
    Messages:
    2,015
    And who says Nationals in 2012 won't be poorly skated again?
  20. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2006
    Messages:
    3,725
    Agreed. Thrilled for Mirai-she medalled in her final GP of the season and wasn't even expected to be there! I'm very proud of all of the U.S. ladies. I'm very excited for the GPF, Nationals-and WORLDS! :D
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  21. jlai

    jlai Title-less

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Messages:
    8,775
    Mirai medalled in her second gp the last three seasons, so her winning a bronze isn't really a surprise
  22. emma1227

    emma1227 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2012
    Messages:
    86
    Speaking of juniors, didn't Vanessa Lam have a huge score at Sectionals? Is she skating as a junior or senior at Nationals?
  23. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    29,996
    This will be Vanessa Lam's 3rd Nationals at the senior level (7th in 2011, 9th in 2012).

    SENIOR QUALIFIERS via Sectionals:
    Easterns 1-4: Samantha Cesario 163.53, Yasmin Siraj 151.35, Haley Dunne 139.69, Joelle Forte 136.47;
    Midwesterns 1-4: Ashley Cain 161.49, Becky Bereswill 149.44, Kiri Baga 141.42, Morgan Bell 133.06;
    Pacifics 1-4: Vanessa Lam 177.73, Courtney Hicks 161.72, Sophia Adams 131.49, Amanda Hofmann 122.29.

    ETA: Of those listed above, Cain, Hicks, and Hofmann are making their senior national debuts (as well as Hannah Miller, one of the 3 U.S. JGP Finalists).
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2012
  24. AliasJohnDoe

    AliasJohnDoe Spin Alissa Spin!!!

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,676
    Angela Wang was also 6th in the Free Program at 2012 Nationals. Ahead of Nagasu and Zawadzki in the FP.

    I thought she was a little hosed on PCS in the FP since she was only 16th in the SP and skated in the earlier groups.
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2012
  25. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,784
    I seriously love Angela Wang and think she has so much potential. My only concern with her is that she's prone to really weak SPs.
  26. worldsnice12

    worldsnice12 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    136

    Mirai was doing great but looking at her scores makes me wonder if she does not need to work on that 3S for next season..
    I think with her current layout and if she manages to get those UR's under control she will score 120+..but Ashley is already scoring 125+ with a 6 triple LP and will surely try to upgrade her 2A/2T to a 2A/3T and potentially score 130+??

    Mirai looks very motivated and building up her confidence out there.I know it is not going to be easy for her to get those UR's and edge calls under control but I have always liked how she is going for it all and rarely pop any jumps..She has the talent to aim high and seems to be "hungry" to do better.I loved the fact that she was happy about her 3rd place at NHK (and rightly so) but not 100% satisfied with the scoring and seemed eager to get back into training.
    It is rather interesting how many "late bloomers" we have seen these last years and there are really no reason to count out these young women too early!
  27. emma1227

    emma1227 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2012
    Messages:
    86
    Thanks, I knew it was something insane!
  28. icellist

    icellist New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2010
    Messages:
    413
    Reminds me of a young Wagner.

    And for the 3rd year in a row, Mirai is an alternate for the GPF. IMHO, I like Mirai's programs better than Wagner's this year. I will compliment in saying that Wagner never breaks character and performs better.
  29. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    1,064
    Yes, PCS is used just like the artistic score in 6.0. No difference, just a different name.
  30. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    29,996
    That's why it's so important for the skaters to skate well in the SP... and why Angela Wang needs to keep churning out clean short programs like she did in her 2nd JGP in Croatia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx2qm--ZMWA
  31. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,239
    A clean and inspiring Nagasu with a 3/3 in the short and 6 triples and 2 2axels in the free will definitely be a strong contender for the second spot.

    Here's the catch. Last year she almost didn't miss the loop at all but had problems with the flip and axel/toe. This year she has the flip and axel/toe down but her loop is having UR issues again. Her opening jumps look so big this season. I wonder if she is using so much power to get the big jumps done that by the time the second half rolls around and she had to do the loops, she had little energy left. I guess she is just going to have to keep her stamina up.
  32. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    3,536
    Cross-posting from an another thread that hasn't received much attention:

    :)
    toddlj and (deleted member) like this.
  33. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2009
    Messages:
    2,015
    I think it has mostly to do with her speed in the second half. After the second flip, she seems to be skating very slowly compared to the first half of the program.
  34. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2002
    Messages:
    10,582
    She only got an L2 for her steps at NHK, but L3 in China.

    I'm impressed with her for doing steps so early in the program, but perhaps she should intentionally go for L2 and save her legs for the triples in the 2nd half of the program.

    Really, she should do L1 steps and add the 7th triple, but apparently L1 steps are kiss of death or something.

    But it seems a no brainer. She's losing how much by getting "<" for 3 jumping passes? A lot more than she gains by going for the L3 steps.
  35. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,239
    Exactly. She gets tired and it affects the height of her jumps. Either she steps up on her stamina training or dials down on the other elements.
  36. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2004
    Messages:
    6,959
    I think Mirai's body is probably still adjusting to her new coaching situation and adjusted training techniques. Wasn't there an IN article a few months ago that stated Wendy Olsen was really ramping up the off-ice physical training?

    Thus, she's still a little wobbly with UR's and levels. Still, the big picture is that she's motivated and is losing that 'deer in the headlights' look
  37. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,322
    I was unaware Nationals a second Nationals in 2012 is being held. When will it be, between Christmas and New Years. :rofl:

    I supposed though if that happened and Zhang did an even more unlikely resurgence to some of her best ever skating at Nationals like last year (last season she was skating well in the early season smallish events she was in unlike this year) it would net her the same result as last year, something like 4th place. Even in that scenario I dont see the judges and USFSA ever sending Zhang as the 2nd women behind Wagner to Worlds with Olympic spots on the line, no way. Maybe had she built on her last season momentum so far this season it would have been possible had she killed it at Nationals and other made mistakes, but not anymore. I think there is only a select few they will even consider for that spot, regardless of the performances at Nationals. We will see though.
  38. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2004
    Messages:
    6,959
    What is terribly ironic is that back in '08 - '09, she had been the top US lady scorer finishing 4th at '09 4CC's behind Yu Na, Joannie and Mao in quite a stacked field, all at a time when her technique was worse. There were some saying that she (instead of Czisny) and Flatt should've been the US team at '09 Worlds.

    Since then, she suffers, falls, and comes back w/ mostly improved technique, only to be at the bottom of the rankings for our top ladies these days. I'm not a huge fan, but I sincerely hope she's not giving up and there is a logical reason for her bad performances so far this season! She's tried too hard to fail now.