U.S. Ladies [#5]: All That Glitters Is Not Gold

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Vagabond, Aug 24, 2012.

  1. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    ^I'm not using this as an excuse, but wasn't the caller at CoC extremely tough? I know that a skater shouldn't rely on the whims of a caller, but I wonder if a majority of callers at any other comp would've nailed the skaters (Asada and Lipnitskaya included) the way this caller did ..
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2012
  2. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    ^ Yes, some of the calls that they made were borderline ridiculous.
     
  3. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    Oh for chrissakes, she's not too broad. Leonova was on the podium last year and she's "broader" yet magically still fit.

    On a related rant, I'm tired of hearing people use the words "lightness" and "heavy" to describe quality of movement.

    The only difference between Ashley and Mirai is mental/emotional. Ashley presents her programs, attacks her jumps and competes with confidence.

    Obviously those differences are major, but size wise and jump wise, they are very similar. If Ashley can do it, no one should give up on Mirai.
     
  4. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I am thinking shoulders.
     
  5. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    The caller was probably tougher than usual, but Nagasu had flip rotation issues at Finlandia too. So I doubt the caller is all to be blamed for her result. It is also unfortunate as well that Nagasu probably has no more internationals before Nationals.
     
  6. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Leonova is maybe sturdier, but she has a very small frame. Mirai does have very broad shoulders, even though otherwise she may be "thinner" than someone like Leonova or Wagner. The higher your center of gravity is, the harder it is to control. I think Mirai is also quite a bit taller than Leonova or Wagner, she certainly has longer legs, and that combined with the broad shoulders probably does mean she has a high center of gravity. Idk how this necessarily relates to under-rotating her jumps, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did make a difference. Some of it is also her technique though, with those hooked landings. She had this issue even as an itty-bitty 13 year old.
     
  7. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    The lutz and flip technique in particular :scream:
     
  8. burntBREAD

    burntBREAD Active Member

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    I do hope Mirai can rotate her jumps more quickly -- like others have said, the height and whatnot are fine, but she just rotates sort of slowly. I've also noticed that she has a slight wrap on her jumps as well, surely if she gets a tighter air position, she would be able to rotate more quickly.
     
  9. triple_toe

    triple_toe Well-Known Member

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    Mirai's supposed "broad" frame wouldn't be an issue if she had proper technique from the start. She is fit and thin and fine. She had underrotated jumps when she was a tiny 4'10" junior skater, it's not a question of body type, it's a question of poor coaching basics.
     
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  10. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    And aren't hips the dangerous place to be "broad" in? Last time I checked, the men didn't usually have problems rotating their jumps. Surely their shoulders are broader than Mirai's. :p

    To me, it looks like her jumps have gotten a bit of a wrap in them. I don't think that helps with rotation.
     
  11. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    The interesting thing is didn't Mirai used to have a flutz? And now she gets edge calls on her flip....it's very strange really. You wonder if trying to fix her flutz affected her flip. As for the leg wrap, I've noticed that a little bit too, but it's not that pronounced. It's funny how UR issues seem to be common among ladies with Japanese heritage, surely it's a coincidence, but still a trend nonetheless.
     
  12. PinkFeathers

    PinkFeathers Active Member

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    ^^^ All of this. Every team goes through rebuilding periods... and we're smack in the center of one. Whether or not we should be in the year before Sochi is irrelevant; we are, and we just need to get the team confidence built up for the ride.
     
  13. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Different callers call her flips and lutzes very inconsistently. Some just call her flips while others just call her lutzes.
     
  14. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    Or perhaps Mirai doesn't have a definite edge on either jump and depending on where it is in the program, how well trained she is, how tired she is, or any other number of variables, she sometimes lips, sometimes flutzes, and sometime goes off the flat and isn't called.

    I'm not sure why it would be assumed that it is inconsistency in calling versus inconsistency in skating. I suspect there is probably a little of both; however, I find it hard to believe the three person technical panel is calling something that is not there. It is kind of like speeding. You know you are breaking the law, and you sometimes get away with it, but when you are caught, the fact that you have got away with it before doesn't mean you don't deserve a ticket now.
     
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  15. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Really? Those three have been extremely questionable calls before which makes me wonder who has the most power of the three. Because no one saw underrotations on Flatt's triple flips in the Olympics and no one saw an underrotation on Yuna's triple lutz-triple toe at the 2009 GPF except for them.
     
  16. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    The Technical Panel reviews jumps using film shot by a different camera from the one used for broadcasts. The panel's camera is planted next to where they are sitting so that it records, as closely as possible, what one can see from their vantage points. Sometimes an underrotation that is not readily apparent from the broadcast footage is so from the panel camera footage, and vice versa. Unless you somehow have access to what the panels see, you cannot know for sure that they mismarked a jump.
     
  17. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    Ah, interesting.

    Either they need to make this footage available to the public (by enabling TV cameras to show that perspective, for instance, like the multiple angles you get in an NFL broadcast), or the tech panel should stick to the TV camera views. I said this on another board but this is the most frustrating part of the NJS for me personally. Calls should be understood clearly and the TV commentators should be able to explain these calls (or at least use their own expertise to come up with their own conclusions and see if the judges agree)...

    At least in the USA, I don't think NBC (the TV network that televises skating here) does enough analysis of these things. They still very much cover it like they did in the 6.0 days, and now it's much more complicated. They need to re-tool the broadcast and hire a new team that "grew up" or at least competed mostly under this new system- this way, they can explain these controversial calls, or at the very least, if the judges DO make the wrong call, explain clearly why they did so (like they do in NBA/NFL/etc.)
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
  18. B.Cooper

    B.Cooper Active Member

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    Since the technology is already in place, what would be the consequence of adding a second camera for use by the technical panel? On these questionable calls, the panel could then go to the second camera (or even a third) angle for review. The second camera or even a third, could be on the opposite of the rink, 1/3 way from each end. IIRC, the panels, if questioning the UR, and the call if not obvious, is supposed to go in the skater's favor, and I wonder how often that really happens any more.

    And, I agree ...NBC really needs someone who can speak knowledgably on the technical aspects of the sport. Not just at the introduction of events...but during or post performance, while the skater is waiting for their scores.
     
  19. TheGirlCanSkate

    TheGirlCanSkate Active Member

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    I'd like a charismatic technical panel person to assist with commentating. There are coaches who were national or Olympic skaters who could give solid input. even if they had fluffy talk they could say "John, that looked amazing - what happened to the score?" Then John could say..."well Chris...". And then friendly banter by the two main speakers.

    I REALLY think they need the red, green, yellow like like they did for the summer Olympics.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
  20. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    My understanding is that the view used is the view from the judges stand and that this is a hold over from 6.0 when that was the only view ( of course only in real time) the judges had. Skaters often plan the placement of their elements on the rink to take advantage of this view point. To give callers another view I suppose would be an advantage for some and a disadvantage for others. The whole bit about "no one" seeing the under rotations is quite interesting. I can't speak to this specific competition because I have only seen it on my small computer screen, but I have been to live competitions, come back to FSU where there is rage over some call. From my seat in the arena the under rotation was very clear, yet other people, probably sitting in other places in the rink, couldn't see it. Same goes for edge changes. I have no doubt mistakes are made. Judges and callers are only human. What I question is some wide spread conspiracy to do someone like Mirai in. The tech panel is made up of three people, often, I assume, from three different countries. It seems to defy logic that all three would be in on some conspiracy to hold Mirai down. What I do think happens is that we see things through the glasses of fans, or non fans, of particular skaters. For example, I'm not an Abbott fan. His skating does nothing for me. When posters go on and on about his wonderful interpretation and choreography, his fabulous skating skills etc, I just don't see it. Does that mean it isn't there? I have no idea. I suspect I am biased because I don't like his style so I try not to comment. With skaters I do like, the same principle holds. I probably don't see their faults as clearly because I like them. I believe our preconceptions, to a certain extent, colour what we see on the ice. Anyway, I've now gone way off track. Sorry about that.
     
  21. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for the double post, but I REALLY like this idea!
     
  22. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    Poor Mirai. I think the inconsistent calling of her lutz and flip jumps has been really unfortunate. It started at 2011 Nationals and 4CC where they suddenly decided she was lipping. So, the next season, she put a 3r in her sp (instead of a flip) and changed the entry to the flip, causing her to miss the jump for almost the entire season. The callers, however, gave her edge calls on her lutz this time around, so all of her work was in vain. Once again, she enters this season, does a summer competition, gets the "e" on her lutzes, so she ditches her lutz in the short, replaces it with an entirely new combo (3t/3t), and repeats the flip instead of the lutz in her LP. So what happens at the GP? Lip calls. Give the girl a break and make up your mind.
     
  23. ambern024

    ambern024 New Member

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    AMEN! lol :)
     
  24. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    Given how inconsistent Mirai has been over the past few years, given injury, growth and coaching changes, isn't it at least possible that it is Mirai's edges that are inconsistent rather than the tech panels at the various competitions?
     
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  25. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    RD, have you ever actually watched figure skating on television (or the Internet)? The TV cameras often miss the takeoff and landing when the jump is close to the boards. There would be no way of telling whether the jump was fully rotated or whether the entry to a flip or lutz was from the proper edge.
     
  26. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    What about the slo-mo replays of jumps we see after the skater is finished?
     
  27. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    Anything is possible, but this is very unlikely. Muscle memory is amazing and with the repetitions that these skaters do, it is very unlikely to see a skater take off from a completely different edge than the one they are used to. If it was so easy to accidentally change edges during a jump entry then why has it been nearly impossible for most skaters to fix their flutz or lip over the years. I could see making a case for this if it happened once in a blue moon, but the calling of Mirai's flips and lutzes over the last three years has been so up and down that you have to scratch your head. I think her placement at CoC was probably accurate, but it must be so unsettling for a her to get so many mixed messages from different panels and keep adjusting herr jump layout only to have it work against her.
     
  28. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    I highly doubt it had anything to do with that. Those jumps were clearly not underrotated and nowhere close to being questionable in terms of rotation. I feel that Flatt's underrotation calls were deliberate and political, not actually beccause they were underrotated.
     
  29. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    I am in no way a fan of RF, but I completely agree that those calls were unjust. It's unfortunate, too, because Flatt took the calls so seriously that she completely retooled her triple flip and never completed a 3f/3t again.

    Whenever a an under-rotation or edge violation is not completely clear to the panel, they are supposed to give the benefit of the doubt to the skater.
     
  30. toddlj

    toddlj Livestreams at 1am on Thanksgiving weekend? OK!

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    I am in no way a tin-foil-hat-wearer, but it sure seemed at the time like it was a political call.
     
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