U.S. Ladies [#5]: All That Glitters Is Not Gold

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Vagabond, Aug 24, 2012.

  1. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    I find the comments about parents' money interesting. You all do realize that MANY parents put more per year into their child's skating than Flatt's parents currently are, and many of those kids will never ever make it out of Regionals? How parents spend their money is IMHO, completely up to them. In my case, we base our decisions on how hard our children are working in a particular activity and how dedicated they are to it. Results don't even enter the equation.
  2. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    :confused:

    ummm like what? Donating it? LOL. Its their money they can do what they want with it. Rachel's skating probably does not break the bank for them.

    Seriously, that is a really silly comment. Maybe the money was specifically put away for Rachel's skating.
  3. maatTheViking

    maatTheViking Well-Known Member

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    I personally think it is cute that Rachael is excited about her school, and putting on school gear.

    and for being interested in the jacked or not - I think people are reading WAY too much into it, maybe she was still hot? I notice lots of skaters don't put on their team jacket after their skate.
  4. minignome

    minignome New Member

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    Agree. Still don't get the bashing Rachel here, and the declarations that she should give up her spot, retire, USFS should change the assignment process, etc. make me :rolleyes:

    First off, given the lack of figure skating on US TV, Rachel is one of the more recognizable names in the sport for US ladies right now. She is not a household name by any means, but no current ladies figure skater is in the US. Since the 2010 Olympics, pretty much the only figure skating being shown on a standard US network are US Nationals, Skate America and World Championships -- and for World's since there have been no ladies medalists, the ladies coverage has been sparse. So, for a casual fan, the ladies skaters names they might recognize are Czisny, Wagner, Flatt, Nagasu. If you are trying to sell tickets in the Seattle area for Skate America to the casual fan, competitors they may have actually heard of are a draw regardless of how they actually compete-- it's that way in any sport. And getting butts in the seats matters -- yes the athlete they came to see might have had an off day or be on the downward side of their career but the fans in the seats could discover another one to follow.

    Secondly, Rachel EARNED a Grand Prix spot by placing 6th at Nationals. You can argue she was gifted, somebody was robbed, whatever, but the fact remains she placed 6th. Figure skating already has a problem with being perceived as a not a "real" sport because of the judging and politicking. If USFS starts down the path of throwing out results and awarding spots to athletes based on the perception of how they will compete, fitness, who needs promotion, etc, it will marginalize it further. Yes, there are a limited number of competitions and a limited number of spots at each but that is the same in any sport. Actual results should matter the most as to who gets the opportunities. As soon as you get into questioning an athletes commitment, fitness, priorities, potential and all those other nebulous things discussed here it becomes less like a sport and more like a beauty pageant. If I were a coach, I would much rather say to a skater, hey -- you want a Grand Prix spot, you work your butt off and skate well to get a top place at Nationals, then have to say hey -- you work your butt off and skate well to get a top place at Nationals, then I'll work on convincing the USFS powers that be that you are worthy of a selection.
  5. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

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    Since this is a US ladies thread, I'm going to use it to wish Caroline and Gracie the best of luck at SC this weekend! :) go girls!

    Also, out of plain curiosity, have we heard anything from Team Alissa since they told us she was recovering from her surgery? Or any training updates from any kind of source? I really want to see her contending again, but I'm worried that she may push herself too hard/have any kind of classic Alissa meltdown/otherwise lose her mental game.
  6. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    Team Czisny is keeping pretty mum from what I can see. She may or may not be ready, but I wouldn't expect much from her this season.
  7. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    She's injured.....How many days/week would you be skating if nursing an injury. Geeeeesh.
  8. RockTheTassel

    RockTheTassel Well-Known Member

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    The Stanford thing was cute at, say, US Nationals when people from her college came to cheer her on. But at every single competition? What other skater pulls out their college gear every time they enter the kiss and cry? I'm all for school spirit, but it's getting annoying. And this criticism has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that we're talking about Rachael; it would be irritating for any skater from any school to do that constantly.

    You are right that it's Rachael's decision whether she takes the SA spot that was offered to her, and she doesn't "owe" it to anyone else. But when she's making excuses about school and injuries, basically stating how under-trained she is, and appears to no longer be invested in her skating, then she's going to lose some support from her fans. No one is saying that her future with skating is no longer her decision or that it requires approval from people posting on a forum. But as fans, we're free to talk about how disappointing it is to see a formerly great skater deteriorate so much without seeming to care.

    And FYI, plenty of the people criticizing Rachael now have said plenty of nice things about her in the past. It isn't just those who never liked her and will bash her every time they get the chance.
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  9. edonice

    edonice New Member

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    I get the feeling that Rachael really internalized Tom Z’s belief that hard work is what makes you a great skater. But that’s only true to a point, as she’s coming to realize. Sensitivity to music, a genuine sense of giving yourself to the crowd, the ability to get up and keep going when you’re crashing - are all things that the very best skaters have had to learn. For a while, I thought Rachael had escaped that painful growing period that most female skaters seem to go through in their mid to late teens. But here it is.

    Rachael’s had a really tough time of it ever since she started battling her injuries. She had that incredibly lost look during the Grand Prix series last year, as if she couldn’t quite believe what was happening to her, that her hard work WASN’T paying off.

    Maybe she’s now getting that fulfillment at college, hence the inflated college pride. I agree that it doesn’t really have a place in international competition (she’s representing the US, not Stanford), especially since her attendance at Stanford has no bearing whatsoever on how she’s judged. She’s not judged based on how well she skates in spite of her schoolwork, she’s judged based on how she skates, period.

    I can see why she feels more pride in her schoolwork than her skating right now, and why she might be making excuses for her subpar performances. I just wish she would own up to the fact that she’s not skating well without constantly justifying it.
  10. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Funny how the internet does that :D
  11. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    :lol: ... Fat chance. Been there, done that.

    Remain objective, don't identify. :lol:

    That said, ITA re the incessant belaboring re Rachael Flatt picked to skate at SA over Mirai and/ or any other U.S. lady other than Gao and Ashley who were there and wonder of wonders actually medaled (lost in the OTT Rachael chatter). Rachael being there apparently sucked for some who complain about Flatt's performances at SA, Flatt's love of everything Stanford, Flatt's parents' bucks, Flatt's injuries, Flatt's desire to keep skating, Flatt's careless attitude to not winning, etc., etc.

    Good luck at Stanford, and good luck with your skating, Rachael.
  12. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    There has been longstanding discussions about USFS not spreading out assignments to enough ladies that are separate from the Rachael discussions, and there are also discussions year after year about how Skate America host picks and JGPs should be decided. That discussion has nothing to do with Rachael. It just happened in the midst of a Rachael discussion but has happened numerous times elsewhere.

    Other federations have required a minimum score during summer competitions in order to get an international assignment, or some good summer showings for host pick selections. But since such a practice is not in place right now, Flatt got her assignment like another 6th place finisher.
  13. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Oh, I'm not objective. Definitely rooting for Ashley.
  14. MoreIce

    MoreIce Member

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    Aren't the skaters suppose to wear the jacket because it has the sponsor on it? I thought they were, and that is why I found it a bit disrespectful.
    I'm sure Stanford isn't throwing any money USFS's way.
  15. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

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    At least she isn't putting on a CCCP jacket. Johnny used to catch so much heat for doing that.
  16. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    peibeck, I noticed the USA Today online article now reads: "Growing up in Springfield, Ill., ..."

    Gold was jumping well in the Skate Canada practices yesterday (based on what I saw of the live stream), landing 3F+3T, 3Lz+3T, and 3F+half loop+3S. Let's see what the SP brings later today!
  17. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    ^^Did you get a chance to see Caroline? I'm wondering how she's doing...

    She didn't look too secure at her last competition so I'm hoping that was just a bad day and that she's gotten herself back to nationals/4CC form. It'd be great to see the American ladies continue the good skating Ashley and Christina started last week...
  18. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Hasn't there been chatter that Caroline is having back problems?

    Someone on Golden Skate noted that Caroline wasn't doing the Pearl Spin in her run-through, which I know in the past was her plan when she had back problems. BTW, that poster noted she kept falling on 3loop attempts but was landing the 3F-2T in her practice run-throughs.
  19. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Cue the hand-wringing....

    :watch:
  20. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Results are up...US girls are 8th and 9th. Caroline 52.97, Gracie 52.19...

    Apparently Caroline was clean but slow (no 3l-3l) and Gracie flubbed her 3-3 and fell on her 2A...

    *sigh*
  21. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    No hand-wringing from me! ;) This is a valuable learning experience for Gold. There's still the FS tomorrow.
  22. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    The SP at Skate Canada was "interesting" to say the least. The long will probably separate them though. Ksenia and Murakami will probably have horrible longs. I doubt Osmond will stand up to the pressure and I don't Elene will either.

    I'm have to say though, I'm not much of a fan of Akiko's programs this year... Her SP is really strange.
  23. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    Re: Gracie, Everyone should know not to put all their eggs in one basket.
  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I think they are all being put in the Ashley basket until Sochi. That is good for Gracie, she has a couple more years to develop and get used to the pressure of Senior competition in Ashley's shadow, then post Sochi she will be ready.
  25. maatTheViking

    maatTheViking Well-Known Member

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    I don't recall there being anything else that US Figure Skating on the jacket, maybe I am wrong.
  26. chipso1

    chipso1 Well-Known Member

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    No hand wringing here, either. Gracie is a great free skater; I think she'll come out fighting tomorrow. :) With two large mistakes, she's still only less than 6.5 points behind Makarova who's in 3rd...
  27. reese

    reese Well-Known Member

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    I thought they were supposed to wear the jackets so that USFS could *attempt* to sell advertising on the jackets in the future, like the Japanese skaters with the sponsor patches on the jackets. If sponsors think that they won't get any exposure on the jackets, USFS will have a harder pitch.
  28. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    I don't have scores in front of me, but Rachael might have needed some luck to make it out of regionals this year, lol.

    You mention that you base your decisions on your children's effort and dedication, which I happen to think is great. But I think the point many are trying to make is that she doesn't seem dedicated to skating. We keep hearing a lot about how it doesn't fit into her life these days. That coupled with the declining results and declining performance level. Why can't people complain about this? Are we supposed to celebrate someone's part time quasi dedication to a sport?

    OTOH, she should skate as long as she wants to and retire when SHE wants to. But she shouldn't expect everyone's reaction to be sunshine, roses and praise.
  29. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say people shouldn't complain. It is certainly not up to me to decide what people post about :)
    I said I found it "interesting."
  30. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    Southwestern regional happened during the Skate America weekend, right? Rachael's SA score would have put her second in that competition. 4th place at Southwestern got an 87.74.
  31. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    :( for Caroline and Gracie. How bad is Caroline's back injury?
  32. chipso1

    chipso1 Well-Known Member

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    After Skate Canada. Zhang improves on her Nebelhorn Trophy score by about 25 points, and Gold is about 20 points lower than her U.S. Classic score.

    2012-13 U.S. Ladies -- Top International Scores

    1. Ashley WAGNER (188.37), Skate America
    2. Christina GAO (174.25), Skate America
    3. Agnes ZAWADZKI (172.95), U.S. Classic
    4. Gracie GOLD (171.15), U.S. Classic
    5. Mirai NAGASU (163.09), Finlandia Trophy
    6. Angela WANG (162.65), JGP Zagreb

    7. Hannah MILLER (158.52), JGP Linz
    8. Samantha CESARIO (157.72), JGP Linz
    9. Leah KEISER (156.33), JGP Istanbul
    10. Courtney HICKS (153.77), JGP Lake Placid
    11. Caroline ZHANG (149.87), Skate Canada
    12. Barbie LONG (147.19), JGP Bled

    13. Kiri BAGA (142.22), JGP Lake Placid
    14. Vanessa LAM (140.89), JGP Courchevel
    15. Ashley CAIN (136.51), JGP Courchevel
    16. Rachael FLATT (136.09), Skate America
    17. Nina JIANG (115.48), JGP Istanbul

    Japan Open (free skate only) scores: Ashley WAGNER (123.57); Agnes ZAWADZKI (89.95)

    Upcoming assignments:
    • Cup of China (Mirai NAGASU)
    • Ice Challenge (Rachael FLATT)
    • Rostelecom Cup (Gracie GOLD, Agnes ZAWADZKI, Caroline ZHANG)
    • Trophee Eric Bompard (Christina GAO, Ashley WAGNER)
    • NHK Trophy (Alissa CZISNY, Agnes ZAWADZKI)
    • JGP Final (Leah KEISER, Hannah MILLER, Angela WANG)
  33. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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    Time to kick Gracie to the curb. "Loser" with a capital L tattooed on your forehead. Step up to the plate, Hannah Miller. You must save US Ladies figure skating en route to ruling the known universe. You can totally do it. No pressure, mind you. :p
  34. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    :p

    Seriously, there wasn't that much hype over Gold. But there was a Gold reference as a joke or snark just about every third or fouth thread over the summer. So, Gracie, stop reading news or posts about yourself. ;)
  35. chipso1

    chipso1 Well-Known Member

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    :lol:

    I'M not ready to give up on Gracie quite yet. ;) She's a great skater, even if her first SGP event didn't go quite how she planned.
  36. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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    Seriously this time: I think Gold did okay at SC, especially when you compare her results with those of Sr. GP veterans like Zhang and Flatt. 151 and change isn't bad for a Sr. GP debut, esecially one with major errors in both programs. So she didn't live up to the hype, so what? Hopefully she'll learn from that and build on it. And I think she will.
  37. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    Again, re Gold: this is the danger of hyping someone to the heavens. When they don't blow the roof off, it's like a disappointment, then folks get angry and give up before it even gets started. Careful, folks. Remember how long it took Czisny & Wagner to begin contending.

    No, she didn't get me excited (and frankly, wouldn't have even if she skated like Gao at SA), but I'm willing to give her some more time. It works the other way as well - one mediocre competition does not necessarily mean trouble. And it's early in the season, too.
  38. chipso1

    chipso1 Well-Known Member

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    That's the thing, though. The majority of people that have been hyping Gracie here have been trolls or posters just looking to be obnoxious. The VAST majority of level-headed fans have been quite realistic about her skating, development and results thus far.
  39. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    I think this was just a fluke from Gracie, if i'm correct she only lost here
    she'll be better at her next GP even win if she clean up her FS
  40. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Don't understand why you feel the need to continue to over-hype her, love_skate2011. Just let Gracie develop at her own pace.

    Quotes from Gracie and Caroline after the FS (IceNetwork article):
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2012