Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Vagabond, Aug 24, 2012.
weird headline, is it still mostly about Gracie Gold ?
wasn't the last one too?
Blame Vagabond who started both threads!
Re-posting the link to the Champs Camp article on Ashley Wagner, Christina Gao, and Agnes Zawadzki: http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120823&content_id=37206732&vkey=ice_news
Senior B assignments so far:
Salt Lake City: Gracie Gold and Agnes Zawadzki
Nebelhorn Trophy: Caroline Zhang
thats nice more competitions for Gracie
Nice to see the top US Ladies going for the 3-3 combo's now. They see the writing on the wall that they need them if they hope to compete against the top Ladies. That's why it was frustrating the last couple years watching some of the top US Ladies like Mirai and Rachael and Ashley not pushing themselves technically and being happy with it. Alissa at least was planning too do a 3-3 last season even though it didn't pan out but at least she was ambitious. Now there is no choice. How things can change in just a couple years.
I can agree with you re Mirai and Rachael, but Ashley was going for 3-3's back in 2010 under Priscilla Hill, so I don't think it's fair to lump her in there
Rachael consistently completed 3-3s in competition through the 2010 season.
The thing that frustrated me most about Rachael was that her level of technical ability was not the same season to season. Her triple-triples went MIA 2010-2011 and partially in 2008-2009.
IMO, some of the blame lies with TomZ...Flatt's coach..... as he changed up which 3-3's she was doing season to season and even within a season. Going back and looking at vids from different competitions for her SPs and LPs, he had her do 3F-3T, she worked on 3Lz-3T, 2A-3T, and if IIRC, he also had her doing 2A-3Lp and 3Lz-3Lp. So, no wonder the 3-3's became inconsistent. Only time I remember Flatt attempting 3T-3T was her junior season LP. No wonder she had chronic tendonitis for several seasons.
Wagner talked about 3-3's but did not consistently try them in competitive programs. I think Mirai ran into similar issues as Flatt...IIRC, she had foot problems two yrs ago during the summer, (and IIRC, she showed up at Champs Camp with a boot/walking cast on her foot and did not do programs...so, as an aside, wonder why Evan was not required to do the same thing...whatever). I think the foot problems for Mirai hampered her attempts for 3-3's as well.
^ Yes, I was so angry that in 2010-2011, Rachael wasn't doing anything but skating, and her triple-triples went MIA the whole season and all they talked about was a triple lutz-triple loop combo which she never even attempted the whole season.
As for Mirai, Frank kept on watering down her programs. I remember looking at the protocols at Nationals this year and they decided to only go for a double axel-double toe in the LP, unlike her previous seasons. And last season, Mirai was injury free. Maybe we'll see some upgraded content this season.
I was going to call it "Wagner's Rink Cycle," but I changed my mind. Maybe next time.
Again, I think alot of the responsibility is with Flatt's coach. Flatt did talk about the tendonitis issues from NHK trophy on in a couple of interviews thru out the remainder of her season. I think if Zakrajsek was not so focused on the COP and always upping the technical points in programs, Flatt would have had more success with placing 3-3s in her programs that season. I don't think it wasn't for lack of training the combinations...it is just that she was injured at every competition that season.
At some point, I think there is a point where the athlete is dealing with daily aches and pains from training, and their bodies just won't allow them to go beyond what they can currently do without inflicting more pain. So, the coaches look for other options...and perhaps that is "watering down" a program, so that the skater can successfully perform it. (Thinking Carolina Kostner a few seasons back when she wasn't doing flips or lutzes). On the other hand, I think Mirai and Rachael both dealt with reoccuring injury issues and just could not "up" the technical content any further. There is also a huge mental piece of the puzzle that comes into play....and if the skater doesn't have enough repetitions under their feet to do a more difficult element, it probably isn't going to happen in competition. And, add nagging injury issues to that. I think Ashley has had other issues ....correcting jumping technique (two footing, etc) that has been part of the process for her in terms of doing the 3-3s. Mr Nicks has had to break down her jump technique, to allow her to clean up the first triple, in order to be able to take off/vault properly for the second jump. So, will be interesting to see how the season progresses.
Perhaps next time the thread title should be "desparately seeking Kween" or something like that
Please, no "Kween" in the next Ladies thread title!
Copying over these 2 posts from the end of the last thread:
What frustrated me was that in the 10/11 season her Tom Z came out and told the media that the other girls had lessened their difficulty and Rachael had kept hers up. As others have noted, she failed to land a 3/3 or even attempt one for the whole season.
:/ Did Tom Z ever get some official scrutiny thrown his way re: the worlds debacle? I felt it was terribly unfair for Rachael to be the only one fined, or at least publicly fined, when her coach had supervised a very similar situation two months before (Josh Farris at nationals).
And, speaking of Rachael, is there any news from champs camp about her? She is there, yes?
Lam and Cain finished 4th and 5th at the JGP in France. Vanessa scored 140.89 and Ashley 136.51. If USFS was intelligent neither would get a 2nd event and Long and Edmunds would be sent out to the next available event, but I wouldn't be surprised if they both get 2nd assignments and one or both of Barbie and Polina lucks out .
Anyways, this was the point I was making about Lam. In domestic competitions, she scores very well. In international competitions, however, she rarely breaks 6s for PCS, and that combined with her jumps that garner no +GOE, no 3-3, and her tendency to make a couple mistakes in her programs means she's unlikely to really make it as a senior internationally. I mean, this wasn't that deep of a field, she was one of the oldest skaters in the field, and she failed to medal, placing behind two complete unknown youngsters. Maybe with a jump overhaul she could really go places, but idk...
from thread #4:
Agreed about Zawadzki (not giving up on her yet, though)...however, I'm not completely convinced yet that Wagner has exercised ALL of her SP demons...
Still, I'm curious to see how Wagner handles this season. Hopefully last season wasn't her peak...
ITA w/ your post! Vanessa was also awesome last summer only to tank during the actual competitive season. Considering all the possible talent, the USFSA should adopt a policy of sending any no. of the new gals out to these big events if any of the older gals don't cut it. It really is the only way to move the whole of US skating forward
that would have been awesome. please use it next time. and Ashley does deserve more attention here !
Yes exactly. Did Vanessa deserve an initial JGP assignment - absolutely! She skated very well this summer and had a decent season last year. But does she deserve a second? If there were not that many strong girls to pick from so USFS could afford to send more girls to 2 events just for the experience regardless of if they were likely to make the final, then I would say it would make sense, but when we've still got 3 really talented girls deserving of an assignment who have yet to get one event, I would say no, don't send Vanessa out again, or at least not until all the girls that deserve an assignment have gotten one and the results are in and her placement is better than most of the rest. Vanessa has experience, she was given the benefit of the doubt when she was named to the JW team after placing behind Wang at Nationals and struggling at the JGPF, and although she's capable of winning JGPs as she's done it before, she needs to skate basically clean to do so and you can usually count on her to make at least a couple errors in her FS. So, basically, I won't get mad if Vanessa gets a 2nd assignment, but I will be very mad if she gets a 2nd before Barbie and Polina (and maybe even Mariah too) get a 1st. And as for Ashley, her chances of qualifying for the JGPF are slim to none with a 5th place finish and her technical capabilities, so I really don't see the point in sending her out again. She too earned her 1st spot, but to be honest, I feel she had the skate of her life in the FS at Nationals and that her JGP outings here and last season are more typical of what we can usually expect from her...
IMHO it's fine to send untested skaters (e.g. Gold and Agnes Z at juniors), but without upcomers competing against each other in the summer, it's hard to tell how reliable a club competition score is. (As it turns out, it's not that reliable for Lam as her jumps could be dinged at JGPs. ). And if USFS uses club competition score to send a girl further down the US nationals list and if the girl tanks, then USFS gets criticized, which is exactly why USFS always plays safe and uses US nationals ranking (to avoid the political ramifications if things go wrong).
The only way to pick out girls without controversy is to set aside JGP spots and name one summer competition to decide where spots go. This year so many men competed at Glacier Falls. If a large number of ladies do that also next year, that can turn out to be the "JGP qualificaiton" event for those without assignments.
i would prefer that USFS designate a certain # of spots that depend on nationals and a certain # that don't, and what you have to achieve at 1st JGP to get a 2nd. that way it's clear to all what they will have to do to get one. specify which summer competition will determine nationals-independent spots, for those not likely to qualify by nationals results because those skaters were injured the previous season or just skated poorly at nationals, etc, and have those skaters compete against each other scored by the same judging panel. and USFS should also clarify that senior nationals #12 will be given priority over junior nationals #4, etc. if i were on team karen chen, team polina edmunds, or team barbie long, i would be mighty tempted to have my skater become a US nationals senior by the september 1st deadline, looking at USFS's pattern of JGP distribution this season (sending nina jiang instead of barbie long).
Mirai was doing the 2A/3T combo in practices and during the warm-up at Nationals. Mirai changed the layout of her FS program as she was skating it that night from what she had been practicing. I don't think that is Frank's fault.
She was third in the free skate and fourth overall in Courcheval, and last season she was fourth in her first JGP event also but still managed to make the JGPF.
Good heavens, it's always the end of the world if a US lady doesn't medal.
Actually, last season Lam was 3rd in her first JGP event (Australia).
it's not the end of the world. it's that others are also deserving of 1 chance before vlam gets 2.
You're correct, sorry for my error. Still, I think she is deserving of another chance if it arises.
you think she deserves another JGP before polina edmunds or barbie long even gets one?
It's not the end of the world, but it will be very hard for her to make the Final now, especially with only 6 ladies qualifying.
It wouldn't be such an issue if the U.S. didn't have such great depth in junior eligible ladies, but we do.
Lam hasn't medalled at her last 3 junior events (jgpf, junior world and this comp). I am not even a fan of Barbie Long, but I hope USFS gives her a chance. (I hope USFS gives every promising lady a chance.)
I don't believe peibeck has been following the "2012-13 U.S. JGP Assignment Predictions/Speculation/Discussion" thread as closely as some of us so we should ease up a little.
Total scores of 130+ in U.S. summer competitions with published results; known international assignments and, now, first international results included:
173.29 Gracie Gold (Skate Detroit) - Salt Lake Sr B, 2 Grand Prix
172.30 Vanessa Lam (Hidden Valley Open); 140.89, 4th at JGP France
168.48 Hannah Miller (Skate Detroit) - JGP Austria
168.42 Leah Keiser (All Year FSC comp.) - JGP Turkey
167.36 Angela Wang (Colorado Championships, Jr.) - JGP Lake Placid
158.23 Samantha Cesario (Liberty) - JGP Austria
156.60 Mirai Nagasu (Glacier Falls) - 1 GP
153.48 Agnes Zawadzki (Colorado Championships) - Salt Lake Sr B, 2 Grand Prix
149.87 Caroline Zhang (Hidden Valley Open) - Nebelhorn Sr B, 2 Grand Prix
146.25 Yasmin Siraj (Cranberry Open) - JGP alternate
145.48 Christina Gao (Cranberry Open) - 2 Grand Prix
145.10 Ashley Cain (Cannon Texas Open); 136.51, 5th at JGP France
144.23 Courtney Hicks (L.A. Open) - JGP Lake Placid
142.86 Joelle Forte (Liberty) - not in ISP
139.24 Kiri Baga (Skate Milwaukee) - JGP Lake Placid
138.87 Haley Dunne (Liberty) - not in ISP
132.83 Nina Jiang (Cannon Texas Open) - JGP Turkey
131.76 Carly Gold (Skate Milwaukee) - not in ISP
130.77 Becky Bereswill (Skate Detroit) - not in ISP
170.06 Polina Edmunds (Broadmoor Open combined final round scores) - JGP alternate
157.93 Barbie Long (Broadmoor Open SP Only & FS qualifying scores added together) - JGP alternate
153.03 Karen Chen (Glacier Falls) - not in ISP (too young)
142.56 Maria Yang (Liberty) - not in ISP
141.80 Mariah Bell (Glacier Falls) - JGP alternate
134.05 Selena Zhao (Glacier Falls) - not in ISP
No, in fact, I have haven't followed the discussion at all since I am so busy with work during the summer.
I didn't know Polina or Barbie didn't even have an assignment yet, so please spare the arrows.
I guess I will have to create a Vanessa Lam voodoo doll as penance for being a bad skating fan now.
this looked very scary. can someone confirm that ashley cain is okay?
she was able to continue and (to my eyes) skated even better than before that fall, but i don't know if she changed her jump layout or something.
I saw Ashley Cain skate in June, and she had a freak accident there during warmup and looked hurt afterwards. She fell on her triples during her skate. I hope this is not a recurring thing for her
^yes, i remember you mentioning such a fall. i hope cain's skating well towards the end of the courchevel program means all is well.
If there's room to send her after Barbie and Polina get sent to an event and no one else places better than her, then I don't have a problem with it, but 4th place with a 140 score means her chances of qualifying for the JGPF very slim, so in that case, I think the spread the wealth approach makes more sense. Even if Barbie and Polina get sent to the last event, medal, and don't get a chance to receive a second event and a shot to qualify for the final, at least they'd get the experience, WR points, and a chance to go to JW this season.
The thread title brought back memories of the "Cover Girls" All That Glitters Isn't Gold (from clubbing in the 80's):
Separate names with a comma.