U.S. Ice Dance News & Notes - Summer 2013

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Jun 9, 2013.

  1. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

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    For me, the problem of this free dance is that the choreography acknowledges the music in an extremely general way. This is especially apparent in the second half. Amidst the bombastic music, the straight line sequence, breathless transitional moves, and final lift have no concern for timing, rhythm, or matching the music details (and this music has no details). If they missed timing by a few beats who could tell?
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  2. reese

    reese Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate that they are taking on a Bollywood theme and using difficult music, but I don't think it works. At best, they have a ton of work to do to make this a mature FD. I expcted them to be in the running for top 5 at Nationals this year, but now I think that's unlikely based on these performances and the choreography/programs they have chosen. I hope they don't become one of those dance teams who are successful juniors, but never make it as seniors and just kind of fizzle out for a season or two before breaking up.
  3. LilJen

    LilJen Well-Known Member

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    Hmm. Chock/Bates--Yes, the vocals are kind of screechy and the music is bombastic. Lifts definitely need work--they all appeared awkward. It's kind of funny--intellectual disconnect--hearing the singers go on about the Revolution and there's Madison in her pretty pink dress and girly hair bow, and while I generally LOVE color on men in general, the bright blue pants feel more "Willy Wonka" to me than French Revolution (forgive me if they're authentic; never seen the play or movie).

    Nats will be veeeeerrry interesting. C/B scored 89 here, H/D score 90 at Nebelhorn. . . could be a 3-way fight for those 2 other Sochi spots between these two and the Shibutanis.

    Anyone else get Skating magazine? Cover story is about Chock/Bates.
  4. Casey2

    Casey2 Member

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    In the past, a Skating mag cover story has often been a 'kiss of death' for pairs and dance pairs. I remember Samuelson and Bates , Yankowskis (sp?) and Coughlin, Zoueva and Shpilband (Feb 2012-just before their split). Other skaters have been featured shortly before a big competition only to have epic failures in said competition (Abbott) or injury (Alissa). I'm pretty sure there have been others. It's creepy to read about how devoted skaters are, how in sync, etc. and then read about a split/accident later that season.
  5. smileyskate

    smileyskate New Member

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    That is an interesting observation Casey2. I wonder what Emily is up to these days.
    Hopefully everyone ends up healthy and happy.
  6. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't that impressed at the debut, but hoped it would improve. I think the program needs some tweaking. Something doesn't work for me.
  7. semogal

    semogal Well-Known Member

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    So as we wait for the GP to start here is a compilation of the Senior performances (I included video links when I could find them):

    Davis/White: 183.69
    SD: 73.67 (35.66 + 38.01, 1Finn-3, 2Finn-3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TJAky40ooU
    FD: 110.02 (53.17 + 57.85, 1pt lift ded.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCYIlw7S014&feature=youtu.be&t

    Hubbell/Donohue 147.11
    SD: 56.53 (28.07 + 28.46, 1Finn2, 2Finn3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS1pcnD3x5s
    FD: 90.58 (45.60 + 44.98) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow4-33m-hzk

    Chock/Bates 143.06
    SD 53.34 (23.51 + 30. 83, 1Finn2, 2Finn3, 1pt fall deduction) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQX0Jow4koI
    FD 89.72 (42.16 + 47.56) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_EcCrHOOCw

    Lynn/Logan 134.48
    SD 53.03 (26.50 + 26.53, 1Finn3, 2Finn2)
    FD 81.45 (42.83 + 40.62, 2 pt extended lift deductions)

    Aldridge/Eaton 130.49
    SD 51.50 (23.68 + 27.82, 1Finn3, 2Finn1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJhR-ABJcZE
    FD 78.99 (39.03 + 40.96, 1 pt extended lift deduction) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=U3BOgnOC3T4#t=181

    Cannuscio/McManus 119.34
    SD 48.07 (23.84 +24.23, 1Finn1, 2Finn3)
    FD 71.27 (34.86 _37.41, 1 pt extended lift ded.)

    Aronow/Brubaker 100.31
    SD 38.01 (16.84 +22.17, 1Finn1, 2Finn1, 1 pt extended lift deduction)
    FD 62.30 (28.57 + 33.73)
  8. mysticchic

    mysticchic Well-Known Member

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    ..and there has been one writer behind those articals. interesting!
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  9. jiejie

    jiejie Active Member

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    Agree with this. This program doesn't work for me. It was always a risk doing this so soon after Davis/White's epic Bollywood SD, and this unfortunately looks like a cheap copy, down to the costuming. It's not an easy genre to pull off especially for the length of an FD. I can't decide whether I like the choreography or not, but the program definitely doesn't look like it's been trained enough--it seemed rather sloppy and skated with leaden feet. I'll put that down to early season kinks being worked out. I might get smacked for saying this, but one thing that doesn't work for me about this program is Alexandra--I don't know whether it's her height, body shape, costume, or what, but she just doesn't look graceful doing this and the "Indian" moves aren't fluid. Haven't seen their SD but based on this, no way they get to top 5 at US Nationals.

    Chock/Bates FD is IMO a poor vehicle, especially everything starting with the vocal music, it takes center stage instead of their skating. Hubbell/Donahue looked good and with good programs (beautiful FD). Haven't seen Shibs programs but they need to make their move with C/B vulnerable program-wise--I'm not sure about the cover story "kiss of death" theory but it is intriguing coincidence!
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  10. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

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    So ... do we have 3 teams in JGP final? Are the Parsonses in?

    It is a bit ironic that people immediately jump on Aldredge/Eaton's obviously undertrained Bollywood FD through a poor-quality video with hardly discernible music. An undertrained and ill-prepared program with familiar music and dance style would never gather so much immediate rejection, I have to suspect. It's a reminder how incredibly difficult and daring Davis/White's choice were in 2010 and how ill rewarded they were by the establishment. Why would anyone bother to take any risk in ice dance if it is more punished than rewarded? Why wouldn't most programs look the same under a system like this?
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  11. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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  12. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

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    As far as I can remember. :respec:
  13. reese

    reese Well-Known Member

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    Have they been injured this summer? Is there a reason this dance is more undertrained than the other teams this early in the year? (I'm genuinely asking.)

    Davis/White had their breakout season in many ways in 2010, including winning the GPF. Unless I missed something, their Bollywood OD was almost universally adored...

    Like I said, I like idea of a Bollywood FD. I don't hate the music choices. To me it looks sloppy and poorly choreographed. Just look at the attemps at authentic hand and arm movments, starting with the very opening position of the dance. There are also way too many of those hand flicks and gestures throughout; it felt very junior/novice to me. When Meryl put those moments in the OD, you could tell they were perfectly placed and studied; in this FD they all seem thrown away. Team Aldridge/Eaton needs to take a hatchet to this choregraphy and cut out about 70% of those movements (especially from Eaton). They also are out of sync a lot in their side-by-side choreography and that last few moments of side-by-side dancing before they hit the final position is cringe-worthy.

    I hope they make some changes. I could see a situation where they struggle to place even 6th and get on the 4CC team with this.
  14. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

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    I genuinely do not know why they look undertrained in October. It just looks to me that they've not mastered the program or practiced enough to do it as planned. Whether the problem can be solved by more practice and work or chucking the choreography because it's bad ... I don't think I know enough to say.

    It is a possibility (my guess only) that the unfamiliarity with the "foreign" positions and movements and gestures are a lot more difficult to master than conventional ballroom positions and handholds and movements that every ice dancers has been trained on for years and years. This is also why I personally think Davis/White were underappreciated for how difficult it was to do their Bollywood short dance with ease and precision, as if they had spent years practicing the dance genre.

    We are 3 months away from Nationals. Whether Aldredge/Eaton will show up in Boston and skate this program with ease and precision I don't know, but I don't think it's likely that, after some hard work and diligence and practice, they will skate like they did at ONT.

    Of course, they could abandon the program and skate to Tosca or a Waltz or a Tango with traditional ballroom positions and handholds and arm movements they are more familiar with and probably be amply rewarded.

    Where they will place at Nationals ... who knows. It is largely not in their own control. As the freshmen in Seniors, I suspect their best hope is 5th anyway (D/W, Chock/Bates, Shibutanis, Hubbell/Donohue).
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2013
  15. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

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    The problem with Aldridge/Eaton is that she is outgrowing him. No program will hide that.

    It happened to Lichtman/Copely, Hubbell/Hubbell, Chock/Zuerlin, etc...

    BTW, what happened to Lichtman? She was good.
  16. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    Nope 2008-2009 (Granted it was in the days of 8 team JGPF's)

    The following teams made the JGPF


    Madison HUBBELL / Keiffer HUBBELL
    Madison CHOCK / Greg ZUERLEIN USA
    Maia SHIBUTANI / Alex SHIBUTANI USA
    Piper GILLES / Zachary DONOHUE USA
    Alisa AGAFONOVA / Dmitri DUN UKR
    Kharis RALPH / Asher HILL CAN
    Ekaterina PUSHKASH / Dmitri KISELEV RUS

    The top 4 qualifiers were from the US.
  17. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    And five seasons later, two teams, the Shibs and Ralph/Hill, are still together.
  18. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

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    Sigh. Piper and Zach had some awesome programs back then choreographed by Tom Dickson. What a shame ...
  19. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    JGP Final Junior Dance results (December 2008):
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf0809/CAT004RS.HTM
    FPl. Name Nat. Points OD FD
    1 Madison CHOCK / Greg ZUERLEIN USA 131.15 1 1
    2 Madison HUBBELL / Keiffer HUBBELL USA 124.68 6 2
    3 Ekaterina RIAZANOVA / Jonathan GUERREIRO RUS 124.30 2 4
    4 Maia SHIBUTANI / Alex SHIBUTANI USA 120.60 7 3
    5 Ekaterina PUSHKASH / Dmitri KISELEV RUS 120.35 5 5
    6 Kharis RALPH / Asher HILL CAN 120.09 4 6
    7 Alisa AGAFONOVA / Dmitri DUN UKR 119.38 3 7
    8 Marina ANTIPOVA / Artem KUDASHEV RUS 111.43 8 8 <-- 8th team
  20. toddlj

    toddlj Well-Known Member

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    But nonetheless, it's a good omen for this year's crop. CHOCK (with Bates), HUBBELL/DONOHUE, and the Shib Sibs, 5 seasons later, are three of the top 4 US teams.
  21. reese

    reese Well-Known Member

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    Few of the top junior teams at US Nationals in recent years had success as Seniors with the same partner. The Shibs are an exception. So many split right before going Senior or a season or two after - Lichtman/Copely, Chock/Zuerlin, Bonacorsi/Mager, Gilles/Donohue, Tibbetts/Brubaker, Olson/Cowan come to mind.
  22. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    The ones who medalled at worlds stuck with their partners they went to jr worlds with -- D/W, Belbin/Agosto, Shibs.
  23. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

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    Fingers crossed for the current crops of US junior teams. Just sticking together through the junior career is an impressive achievement nowadays.
  24. reese

    reese Well-Known Member

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    It's also kind of interesting to me how height differences (or similarities) don't really seem to hurt a team as Juniors the same way it does when they move to Seniors. Looking at the current Juniors, I could see the height similarities of Hawayek/Baker and Parsons/Parsons hurting them when they move up in a way that it isn't really now.
  25. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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  26. rhumba

    rhumba New Member

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    However, the rule has changed since then. The lifts are more demanding and acrobatic. The perfect female partner is Meryl, small frame with strong core body. It's harder for taller or larger frame female partner to perform these demanding lifts nowadays. We also see more "neck injury" in male partner now due to these lifts. The larger height difference helps in performing these acrobatic lifts. It will be interesting to see how H/B, P/P do in the next few years. and also A/E.
  27. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

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    I have disliked the way lifts are done for several seasons. The current rules are very bad for the athletes and the aesthetics of ice dancing.
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  28. rhumba

    rhumba New Member

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    Totally agree. Some teams still managed to get good scores despite performing less acrobatic lifts, e.g. H/D, W/P, A/E. D/W's lifts were more physical demanding on both skaters. D/W got my thumb up for making those difficult lifts looked easy, effortless and sort of aesthetics (except the one that she was upside down in FD).
  29. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    That's the first upside down lift they've done. And they got some flak for not doing as acrobatic lifts as V&M from time to time, and for doing the four short lift option, rather than the 2 short lift/1 combo lift option. So it's not surprising in an Olympic year that they've added an upside down combo lift.

    P&B, BTW, are the long time king & queen of upside down lifts, going back to their cotton ball costume Four Seasons program.

    I'm hoping the D&W upside down lift will look more aesthetic by Skate America, or failing that, by Nationals.
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  30. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

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    All the acrobatic lifts around the male partner's neck and up and down his back can't be healthy, especially for younger skaters whose bodies are still growing and injuries can leave lifelong implications. I wish ISU weren't looking to the NFL as the role model. For a few years in the 90s the dance rules favored skating and discouraged too many lifts. Now the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction.
  31. momof5

    momof5 New Member

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    Regarding Charlotte Lichtman, she was good! I know she tried to find a suitable partner and was unable to. She is now a full time junior at the University of Michigan.
  32. semogal

    semogal Well-Known Member

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    With the JGP season completed (except for the Final), I thought I would do a recap. I listed the teams in order of their GP placement and provided links to their highest scored performances:

    Hawayek/Baker 144.84 at Baltic Cup
    SD: 62.58 (33.99 + 28.59), 1QS4, 2QS3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8odtvQhgo10
    FD: 82.26 (38.78 +43.48) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyagSRE5gEg

    McNamara/Carpenter 137.97 at Minsk
    SD: 56.98 (31.00 + 25.98), 1QS2, 2QS3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOan0l4KwEE
    FD: 80.99 (40.80 + 40.19) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUHBV1Wu5R4

    Parsons/Parsons 134.73 at Czech Skate
    SD: 59.04 (33.29 + 27.25), 1QS4, 2QS4, 1 pt ext. lift ded http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_2c930iiJU
    FD: 75.19 (33.94 + 41.25) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tyc3SZ68Cyo

    Moore/Klaber 127.74 at Talinn
    SD: 53.79 (29.21 + 24.58),1QS3, 2QS2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYUBlM_u2O4
    FD: 73.95 (3.36 +38.59) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akRNJpQo42Y

    Pogrebinsky/Godis 122.92 at Baltic Cup
    SD: 50.60 (28.21 + 22.39), 1QS2, 2QS2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDPFqDMLKQA
    FD: 72.32 (37.81 + 34.51) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJSwVPsBIqA

    Lewis/Bye 104.32 at Mexico
    SD: 42.50 (23.49 + 19.01), 1QS3, 2QS2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrLufEWVHZw
    FD: 61.82 (31.57 + 31.25), 1 pt lift ded. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU3vtn184TU

    Patsis/Johnson 98.93 at Minsk
    SD: 41.96 (21.10 + 20.86) 1QS2, 2QS1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUqKj6X9x4U
    FD: 56.97 (26.70 + 31.27), 1 pt. ext. lift ded. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3I1Nz-WvRE
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2013
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  33. mineko

    mineko New Member

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    ^^ Thank you for compiling the above vids.
    I hope the three JGPF qualified teams do well at the finals. :)
  34. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    McNamara Carpenter-their total was not 187.97 at Minski, it was 137.97. And good luck to the qualifying teams :cheer2:

    semogal, thanks so much for listing the videos! :)
  35. B.Cooper

    B.Cooper New Member

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    What are the factors that contribute to the Jr teams not staying together? Many of the above mentioned teams have had international success on the Jr level. Is it that they expect immediate results at the Sr level as well? There is longevity in dance, and because the very top teams, ie., those that medal at the Olympics and Worlds, etc....tend to be older in age and experience, have the Jr teams lost their patience , as a team, to fulfill their potential as a team, and put in the time to achieve Sr level success?
  36. semogal

    semogal Well-Known Member

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    I made the change. Sorry for the goof. I hope that by posting their performances together more people will watch our very talented US Ice Dancers!
  37. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    All sorts of reasons. I can't speak for specific teams -- especially because even if they made reasons public, there might have been other reasons that they didn't choose to share.

    Off the top of my head:

    No longer a good physical match, in the look of the team (which can be overcome but may have negative effects on results) or in the safety -- for both partners -- of executing lifts and other difficult moves needed for competitive success at the next level

    Changing levels of commitment -- the transition from junior to senior is often the time when one partner decides to make college a priority, which means either quitting entirely or cutting back on training just when the other partner wants to train even harder

    Changing financial circumstances that don't allow one partner to train at the level the other would like

    Injury, eating disorder, or other personal issues that require one partner to take significant time off, and the other partner chooses to move on

    Persistent conflicts between the partners, between one partner and the coach while the other remains loyal, between a parent and the coach, or between the two sets of parents

    Some conflicts can be resolved, but if there are fundamental differences in work ethic or disagreements about where to train, which coach/choreographer/music to use, which country to represent, etc., it may be counterproductive to stay together when the goals no longer match
  38. AliasJohnDoe

    AliasJohnDoe Spin Alissa Spin!!!

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    Hawayek/Baker FD :swoon:

    My favorite FD's this season from US: 1.Davis/White 2.Hubbell/Donohue 3.Hawayek/Baker
  39. ~tapdancer~

    ~tapdancer~ Well-Known Member

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    My top three as well. Love them all!
  40. leapfrogonice

    leapfrogonice Active Member

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    Agree with you on this. The number of neck injuries, likely tied to the kind of lifts we are seeing more and more of (where the girl is literally twirling like a baton around the guy's head and neck) seems directly correlated with this, and I'm not loving watching either the lifts or this injury phenomenon