U.S. Ice Dance News & Notes - Summer 2013

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Jun 9, 2013.

  1. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

    32,521
    4,922
    113
    Tweeted by USFS just now: "@MadiHubbell & @ZachTDonohue have been added to the U.S. roster to compete at @HiltonHHonors Skate America."
     
  2. TanithandBenFan

    TanithandBenFan U.S. Ice Dance Junkie

    5,972
    1,162
    113
    Final SA dance spot goes to Hubbell/Donohue per USFSA's Facebook post this morning.

    They already have a GP assignment. I don't understand why USFSA wouldn't give the spot to a team who doesn't already have one. Give more skaters an opportunity! :(
     
  3. SidelineSkater

    SidelineSkater New Member

    29
    4
    0
    Yeah I was hoping Lynn/Logan would get the SA spot, but when USFS named the three other remaining host picks and not the one for dance, you kinda knew it wouldn't happen. Perhaps they want to promote their next best couple for the future. The Chock/Bates, the Shibs, and Hubbell Donohue are most likely to stick around into the next Olympic cycle. Alridge/Eaton are up and coming with their Senior debut this season, but probably couldn't be used to pass over Hubbell/Donohue.

    Happy for Hubbell/Donohue though. They'll have a busy 30 days, with Nebelhorn in late September, then SA a few weeks later, followed by Skate Canada the next week. No traveling for SA, but still a lot of comps with little time to tweak programs if necessary.

     
  4. Jayar

    Jayar Well-Known Member

    8,648
    2,184
    113
    The Olympic season isn't about giving more skaters an opportunity. It's about positioning your skaters for success at the Olympic Games. I understand your sentiment completely-- I like to see as many skaters as possible get assigned, but that's what the year after the Games is for. I would imagine that Lynn and Logan will be selected for the Four Continents Championships later in the season, and if they come back next season, they will likely get two Grand Prix events. And it's highly possible that they will be heading to the World Championships as well. This is a team who I think should stick around for at least one more season.
     
  5. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

    1,141
    291
    83
    If I remember correctly from summer competition, the program is light and lyrical and pretty. No dark vampire theme or anything.

    IMO the Gamelins' free dance this year is wonderful, not to be missed.
     
  6. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

    4,082
    421
    83
    I think it's obvious that the USFSA thinks that 4 teams are in the hunt to make the Olympic team and one of those teams is not Lynn and Logan.
     
  7. TanithandBenFan

    TanithandBenFan U.S. Ice Dance Junkie

    5,972
    1,162
    113
    I think H/D have enough opportunity at Skate Canada and Nebelhorn to position themselves for a run at the Olympic team. It just doesn't seem fair to disregard a team that has been in the top five in the country the past three years. I hope they'll stick around next season, too, but they deserve to be in the mix THIS season.
     
  8. Jayar

    Jayar Well-Known Member

    8,648
    2,184
    113
    Why? Because skating fans like them? That's not the criteria.
     
    aka_gerbil and (deleted member) like this.
  9. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    20,932
    3,807
    113
    Aldredge/Eaton would have been out of contention because of her ankle injury (posted about above): if she wasn't ready by Champs Camp, even if she were somewhat ready seven weeks later, it would be risky to come back prematurely and risk re-injury, especially when it's unlikely that any of the US Olympic-bound skaters will attend 4C's in Taipei two weeks before Sochi, and they have a great shot at 4-6 at US Nats. (Their junior program score at last year's Nats was within a point of Kriengkrairut/Giulietti-Schmitt's 5th place score in seniors, well above the 6th-place senior score.) Scores tend to be higher at championships, and a good showing at 4C's would set them up nicely for next season's SB list and GP selections, just as it would for K/G-S.

    It's unlikely to ease the disappointment of losing an Olympic spot, but the 4th place US team could win the 4C's title and a pile of cash.
     
  10. mgobluegirl

    mgobluegirl Well-Known Member

    2,053
    153
    63
    I would be very surprised if they did. I think Lynn plans to go to medical school.
     
  11. TanithandBenFan

    TanithandBenFan U.S. Ice Dance Junkie

    5,972
    1,162
    113
    I stated the reason - because they've been one of the top five teams in the country the past three years. I think that more than merits a GP assignment.
     
  12. Jayar

    Jayar Well-Known Member

    8,648
    2,184
    113

    No. It doesn't. There is criteria for guaranteed spots, criteria for selection of spots beyond those guaranteed, and the six federations who host events are at their own discretion to select who they want to attend their own event. No rules were broken, the criteria was followed, and nobody was cheated. You are simply stating your preference of invitee. That's not part of the criteria-- neither is 'Top 5 at national championships'. No disrespect for Lynn and Logan, but they have been assigned to the US Classic, which is more than most 5th place finishers from other countries can hope for.
     
  13. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    20,932
    3,807
    113
    I agree, especially considering that they were .34 out of a guaranteed spot from the SB list, and USFS gave a spot to Tobias/Stagniunas, who were unlucky enough to be bumped by the Reeds' inflated WTT scores. (K/G-S were 1 point out of 23rd SB and 2 points out of 20th SB.).

    Hubbell/Donohue were unlikely to get a second from the alternates list unless a spot for FRA opened up, since of the top five on the alternates list, Coomes/Buckland and Monko/Khaliavin are already assigned to TEB, and Sinitsina/Zhiganshin have NHK the week before, and only C/B don't come from a host with bargaining power. The SA assignment was the only way to guarantee them a second spot, although it will mean three competitions within a month.

    Maybe USFS will swap H/D out of Nebelhorn now? K/G-S and Aranow/Brubaker are listed as subs. K/G-S were about 300 WS points from making top 24 WS this year, and if they could earn points at two senior B's and 4C's, that would move them up the list. The senior B in SLC is not a lot of travel from Detroit a few weeks before Nebelhorn.
     
  14. rhumba

    rhumba New Member

    358
    17
    0
    ITA. Their SB also was higher than A/E who got one GP and one senior B. There was an inconsistency in the criteria in picking SA. In previous years, they would look at LP result, along with result from Nationals, and also "spreading the wealth". It seemed to be some politiks behind, maybe because of Detroit hosing SA?
     
  15. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    20,932
    3,807
    113
    A/E weren't guaranteed one, but Jr. Worlds medalists and JGPF winners are a listed category above Top 75 SB to be given consideration, and the other medalists on the junior podium also got spots from other hosts. Their SB score was 2.08 lower than K/G-S's, but that was with a junior program. Even if USFS needed to push for A/E to get a spot, it was CHN that offered the invite.

    A/E and the top five senior teams all train with Zoueva, Shpilband, or Krylova/Camerlengo now, and K/G-S's former coaches are also in the area, so I don't think Detroit was a deciding factor when choosing a team. It might have been to throw a crumb to K/C, who could be a bigger factor in US skating after the current top teams retire (and maybe the Shibs get a clue.)
     
  16. rhumba

    rhumba New Member

    358
    17
    0
    I meant the chair of the event.
     
  17. TanithandBenFan

    TanithandBenFan U.S. Ice Dance Junkie

    5,972
    1,162
    113
    I never said rules were broken. It's just disappointing that there seems to be no rhyme or reason behind their selections. If Caroline Zhang can get a spot at SA, you'd think Lynn and Logan surely could.
     
  18. Jayar

    Jayar Well-Known Member

    8,648
    2,184
    113
    The only one that they could have picked before Caroline is Courtney Hicks, and I suspect that there is a plan in place for her to get assignments.
     
  19. blancanieves

    blancanieves Active Member

    365
    127
    43
    Didn't they have some injuries around the time of Lake Placid? Maybe that's still an issue.
     
  20. LilJen

    LilJen Well-Known Member

    9,915
    1,671
    113
    Count me in the yay for H/D and :wuzrobbed: for LincolnLogs crew. Wishing K/G-S could have gotten the spot but will be very excited to see H/D in person.
     
  21. TanithandBenFan

    TanithandBenFan U.S. Ice Dance Junkie

    5,972
    1,162
    113
    They're still on the roster for SLC, so they appear to be fit to compete.
     
  22. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    20,932
    3,807
    113
    The US pewter medalist was passed over for the US senior 11th place finisher in the initial selection on the chance that China, Russia, or Canada would toss back in its TBA? Hicks wouldn't be eligible to be selected as an alternate in the Group of Five until three other skaters are selected. Unless there are a rash of withdrawals in the Olympic season, the least likely season for this to happen, I'm not sure what the plan could be.

    In the 2011-12 season, the top 2011 Nationals skaters got:
    • Davis/White: SA and RC in the initial selection
    • Shibutani/Shibutani: CoC and NHK in the initial selection
    • Chock/Zuerlein: split, Chock/Bates replaced Mysliveckova/Novak at SC and Zahorski/Miart at TEB, as a high-priority returning split couple
    • Hubbell/Hubbell: split, Hubbell/Donohue got first TBA spot at SA
    • Kriengkrairut/Giulietti-Schmitt: NHK in the initial selection
    • Cannuscio/Lorello: second TBA at SA(#49 on the SB list, 14+ points behind #25 K/G-S on the SB list, 11 places and 6+ points behind Cannuscio/McManus on the SB list)

    US Junior Champions Lichtman/Copely, who were Top 24 SB,were assigned to CoC, and Samuelson/Gilles replaced Monko/Khaliavin at CoC under the returning split couple rule in place.​

    In the 2012-13 season, the top 2012 Nationals skaters got:
    • Davis/White: SA and NHK in the initial selection
    • Shibutani/Shibutani: RC and NHK in the initial selection
    • Hubbell/Donohue: SC and TEB in the initial selection
    • Kriengkrairut/Giulietti-Schmitt: SA in the initial selection. (#34 on the SB list and wouldn't have moved into Top five without five other replacements, two of which happened)
    • Chock/Bates: CoC in the initial selection
    • Cannuscio/McManus: sole TBA spot at SA (not on the SB list)

    In the 2013-14, the top 2013 Nationals skaters got:
    • Davis/White: SA and NHK in the initial selection
    • Shibutani/Shibutani: SA and NHK in the initial selection
    • Chock/Bates: CoC and RC in the initial selection
    • Hubbell/Donohue: SC in the initial selection and the sole TBA spot (#17 on the SB list and in the first Group of Five as alternates)
    • Kriengkrairut/Giulietti-Schmitt: none (#26 on the SB list and would need seven replacements before moving into the group)
    • Cannuscio/McManus: none (#49 on the SB list)

    For the 2012-13 and 2013-14 seasons, the top three placed in the Top 12 at Worlds and were guaranteed their two spots. In 2011-12, the bronze-medalist team (Chock/Zuerlein) split, and the new team Chock/Bates were at the top of the subs list. They got their first (SA) days before Cannusicio/Lorello were assigned to the spot, and the second later after Zahorski/Miart withdrew. Effectively, there were just as many guaranteed spots for at least one partner in the top three at nationals all three seasons, with a fourth, Chock/Bates, getting one last season as #20 on the SB list.

    Looking at the last three years' history,
    • Last season and two seasons ago, everyone in the Top Six at US Nats got a GP spot.
    • USFS used its TBD's in 2012 for the sixth-place team at US Nats that had no chance at a subs spot and a new team, Hubbell/Donohue, who had not qualified as a (returning) split couple with their former partners.
    • USFS used its TBA last season for the sixth place team which didn't have a SB from the year before.
    • USFS used its TBA this season to give a second to its fourth place team (that is in the Top Five on the subs list) a second, leaving the fifth and sixth place teams with none

    So, no, it is not a bunch of K/G-S fans whining about how a likeable team didn't get a pity spot, but a reaction to a change in USFS selection behavior from "spread the wealth" to whatever they're doing this season, whether it be putting their eggs in the H/D basket or throwing a bone to Detroit FSC for hosting the event and the :glamor: Krylova.*

    *:duh: you meant the club, not the city :eek:
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
  23. icellist

    icellist Member

    421
    25
    18
    I feel incredibly bad for K/G-S because they took the initiative to move to Shpilband during the off season. They were with a pretty unknown coach with very good nationals success and strong fan base. Think how much better they'd be with a great ice dance coach like Igor?
     
  24. rhumba

    rhumba New Member

    358
    17
    0
    Thanks kwanfan1818. It's sad for the athletes when USFS holds no rule/ regulation, changing year by year,.. played by....politiks....mood...favor...or money...or...whatever....
     
  25. blancanieves

    blancanieves Active Member

    365
    127
    43
    Forgot about that.

    Honestly, I think H/D getting a second assignment is merited. The poor choice, I think, was assigning the Shibutanis to SA when they could've gotten two GPs on their own. Theirs is the spot that could have gone to another non-podium team.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2013
  26. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

    32,521
    4,922
    113
    Lorraine McNamara/Quinn Carpenter have won their first JGP medal (silver) in Latvia! :cheer: Their teammates in Wheaton, MD (WISA), Elliana Pogrebinsky/Ross Gudis, finished 4th with much improved ISU PB scores.
    ETA videos:
    McNamara/Carpenter (2nd in both SD & FD): Short Dance / Free Dance
    Pogrebinsky/Gudis (4th in both SD & FD): Short Dance / Free Dance

    On a related note, here's an article on another WISA team - 2013 U.S. Juvenile Dance champs Caroline & Gordon Green: http://www.ice-dance.com/main/news/general-articles/1613-skating-siblings-2-caroline-gordon-green
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2013
  27. Conga

    Conga New Member

    338
    18
    0
    After your in-depth analyses, kwanfan1818, it is even more disappointing about K/G-S. I like H/D and did expect their SA assignment, but I can't help thinking now that K/G-S must have felt they were slapped in the face when they weren't given the slot. I am not so naive to believe that any federation really "cares" about their athletes as people, but do hope that K/G-S aren't so discouraged that they give up now. I was looking forward to seeing a great competition at US Nationals that included them battling it out with the other top teams.
     
  28. reese

    reese Well-Known Member

    3,407
    390
    83
    The Shibutanis have a fragile hold on that final Olympic spot. As it stands right now with only the SLC comp, K/G-S really have no shot at it. They need at least one GP to put up a score for USFS to compare against H/D and S/S's GP scores before Nationals. Otherwise how will the Nationals judges know how to score PCS? :)
     
  29. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    20,932
    3,807
    113
    Unless there is a written policy that is flaunted -- and I think it has been with the farce of international criteria listed for the World team selection policy -- USFS is entitled to change its selection process and strategy, and, so far, there's no indication that there is one for GP selection, public or private (and if private, only those inside know if its been changed and/or followed.) When they set a precedent or pattern, though, I think it's reasonable to expect they will follow it, and people who do expect this are not irrational fans with blinders on. "Spreading the wealth," the recent pattern, is a legitimate way of using resources for the teams/skaters that are unlikely to place high in Sochi, if they make the team. So is getting as much international attention as possible for a team that is, based on past performance, is, all things being equal, likely to be fourth, which could be a consideration in an Olympic year.

    So is rewarding a club for hosting the event and making it exceedingly convenient for the strongest-performing discipline for the US in terms of lack of travel, less lost training time and interruptions, and not having to pay the coaches for lost lesson time, and it's a win/win for the host for travel costs. (And all of the skaters will have their skates and costumes, assuming Zhulin brings Z/S early to acclimate :cheer2:) Just like the third team from any country hangs in the political winds, Shpilband coaches (T/S) and co-coaches (C/L, C/J, R/R), half the field at SA, including the strong favorite for silver, Zoueva has the other two likely medalists, and Zhulin had the last non-TBA spot. Recognizing the exceptionally strong coaches at the host club who otherwise would have no entries in their own discipline is good bidness, especially when their team has been to Worlds and placed Top 10 their first full season together. These aren't stupid considerations, and it's not as if USFS has bypassed a team with far stellar international results to do so, but it's a break with recent precedent.

    Had K/G-S moved to Shpilband at the beginning of last season instead of this one, it might have been a different story, since the upside -- politically and technically, as they already have a beautiful, defined style -- would have great for them. (I understand the turmoil going on at the time and why they wouldn't have.) To my eyes, H/D were stagnant last year, and I'm not sure they have as much of an upside, but it could have been sophomore slump. W/P took a couple of years to gel, and H/D could make the leap.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2013
  30. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

    32,521
    4,922
    113
    Re-posting this classy statement/FB reply by Logan that was posted in the GP Assignments thread: