U.S. Ice Dance 2016/17 season - news & updates

[Sylvia]

I assume Charlotte Maxwell means she and Ryan Devereaux met the criteria at the Challenge Cup club comp. in Philly to be added to the ISP?

 

[AYS]

Next season, the Greens will be old enough to compete in the JGP. And then there's the Elders, who will also be age-eligible; they're still Novices this year but will no doubt move up to Junior for next season.

The Greens just competed junior at Challenge Cup in Ardmore this past weekend (and won easily). (I unfortunately couldn't be there for the jr dance, I'd have liked to have seen them).

 

[Sylvia]

Re-posting from the Challenge Cup competition thread in Kiss & Cry... Ice-Dance.com's FB has photos of the dance result sheets and medalists: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10153949672147939.1073741885.47362597938&type=3

Maxwell/Devereaux won both Senior events (54.50 SD, 83.81 FD).
Green/Green won Junior (60.86 SD combined, 83.34 FD).
Tkachenko/Kiliakov won Novice (39.01 PD combined, 60.46 FD), Cesanek/Usanov (new) were 2nd in FD (60.01).
Wolfkostin/H. Zhao (new) won Intermediate (37.57 PD combined, 49.12 FD).

Karina Manta and Joseph Johnson blogged from Salt Lake City for IDC this past weekend: http://www.ice-dance.com/site/category/events/competitor-blogs/2016-u-s-international-classic-bloc/

Jacquelyn Thayer's "Behind the Program, Ep. 6: Manta and Johnson, 2016-17 Free Dance" (Aerosmith's "Dream On" choreographed by Christopher Dean): http://www.twofortheice.com/behind-program-ep-6-manta-johnson-2016-17-free-dance/

 

[her grace]

I am disappointed in USFS's decision to "waste" JGP dance spots. I can see the argument that everyone in the ISP got at least one, but I don't see how keeping Gropman/Somerville and Gunter/Wein at home instead of letting them go to their provisional second assignments is a great choice.

Plus the US doesn't really have to invest in ice dancers right now-- Americans are dominating the senior and junior ranks. So while I completely understand wanting more teams to get experience, I also understand that some people might see that US Ice Dance is solid for the next two Olympic cycles without having to develop teams who are in their mid to late teens.

I don't see the Russians saying, oh, we don't need to use all our ladies JGP spots because we dominate at both senior and junior. And it's way too soon to know which of the junior teams may rise to the top. Many of the most highly-touted young American teams are sibling pairs (Parsons/Parsons, and Green/Green and Elder/Elder who will age in next season), who historically have a very hard time reaching the top of dance. You'd think that developing some of the younger non-sibling dancers would be valuable.

 

[Moustaffask8r]

I am disappointed in USFS's decision to "waste" JGP dance spots. I can see the argument that everyone in the ISP got at least one, but I don't see how keeping Gropman/Somerville and Gunter/Wein at home instead of letting them go to their provisional second assignments is a great choice.



I don't see the Russians saying, oh, we don't need to use all our ladies JGP spots because we dominate at both senior and junior. And it's way too soon to know which of the junior teams may rise to the top. Many of the most highly-touted young American teams are sibling pairs (Parsons/Parsons, and Green/Green and Elder/Elder who will age in next season), who historically have a very hard time reaching the top of dance. You'd think that developing some of the younger non-sibling dancers would be valuable.

Maybe this is not the reason why USFSA is doing it!

 

[Jayar]

I don't see the Russians saying, oh, we don't need to use all our ladies JGP spots because we dominate at both senior and junior. And it's way too soon to know which of the junior teams may rise to the top. Many of the most highly-touted young American teams are sibling pairs (Parsons/Parsons, and Green/Green and Elder/Elder who will age in next season), who historically have a very hard time reaching the top of dance. You'd think that developing some of the younger non-sibling dancers would be valuable.

Russian sport is state funded. Saving money by not sending teams might be good business for US Figure Skating, and in a field like dance where the USA is currently quite blessed, keeping two teams home might well save $10K in travel costs, etc.

 

[Jun Y]

Skating is expensive, money is necessary, and USFSA might be keeping young skaters home to save money. (Not saying this is a fact, but it seems the most likely reason.) So ... why do reporters like Christine Brennan and Phil Hersh always complain about US skaters not winning Olympic GOLD GOLD GOLD? Why act as if US skaters haven't won many OGMs lately because they are, uh, lazy, untalented, or inadequate in other ways? Why pretend that all skaters are on a level playing field?

 

[Dobre]

It's unwise to ever count on a junior dance team to stay together, and it is unwise to expect an "unknown" dance team to place high in an international debut. (Especially when almost all JGP competitions are in Europe). Of course, these teams can compete next year. But another competition this season would set them up much better for the following season. We do have the Greens moving up next season, but we already have unfilled openings. Why not head into next season with two more-experienced teams instead of more young, inexperienced ones? Next season, Carreira & Ponomarenko will have a lot of pressure riding on them, as well as the need to stay healthy at the right time of the season. Why not maximize opportunities while we have them?

 

[Moustaffask8r]

It's unwise to ever count on a junior dance team to stay together, and it is unwise to expect an "unknown" dance team to place high in an international debut. (Especially when almost all JGP competitions are in Europe). Of course, these teams can compete next year. But another competition this season would set them up much better for the following season. We do have the Greens moving up next season, but we already have unfilled openings. Why not head into next season with two more-experienced teams instead of more young, inexperienced ones? Next season, Carreira & Ponomarenko will have a lot of pressure riding on them, as well as the need to stay healthy at the right time of the season. Why not maximize opportunities while we have them?

All team have a lot of pressure from one season to another. C/P seems to be handling pressure quite well this year after being sent to compete against A/T in their own country and same thing last year with L/D in Russia. As for staying healthy at the right time of the season, all team has to make sure they are.... The way I saw some of younger US team compete, they don't look mature enough to be in the Junior field... They are technically good but still don't have that junior look

 

[Jun Y]

All team have a lot of pressure from one season to another. C/P seems to be handling pressure quite well this year after being sent to compete against A/T in their own country and same thing last year with L/D in Russia. As for staying healthy at the right time of the season, all team has to make sure they are.... The way I saw some of younger US team compete, they don't look mature enough to be in the Junior field... They are technically good but still don't have that junior look

Some teams aren't very mature, but no one is mature from day 1. I don't think "you don't have that junior look" is a good reason to keep them from international competitions that US has spots for. I'm not saying that is the real reason. The teams that are kept home may not be at the top on JGPs, but they are not at the bottom, either. Should all the teams behind them stay home as well? If USFS as a rule invests in only world's best skaters, soon there won't be any skaters left to develop.

 

[Dobre]

The way I saw some of younger US team compete, they don't look mature enough to be in the Junior field... They are technically good but still don't have that junior look

LOL, Gropman & Somerville are tiny. They aren't going to have a junior look no matter how well they skate. (Their SD this season is weak. Their FD is wonderful). Their levels, though, on the JGPs have been low. (Very low, in France). And at Nationals, IMO, G&S were scored high. I suspect this team is likely somewhere in between. (For me, she has "it" though. Her look & expression remind me of Jamie Silverstein).

Gunter & Wein are not an "it" team for me, but they are already doing better technically than I expected them to do in their first season up. Both on the national and international scene. They defeated the Canadian novices moving up in Japan. It's a beginning. Pogrebinsky & Benoit are not an "it" team for me either and do not have a senior look, IMO; but it is certainly worth sending them out to compete internationally. Not having the look does not mean a team is not competitive.

I will never forget how tiny Tanith & Ben looked in the senior field in 2001 (most people in the audience were surprised they placed as well as they did). But that is the team that broke through for U.S. Ice Dance. I guess that's plenty of evidence that sending a team out early to compete against a stronger field can be worth it.

 

[jlai]

It would be lovely if all teams get to go; that said, USFS has had to give out more assignments than ever the last fews years, and these are not easy times financially for the fed either. In the past, sr Bs were for upcomers and their 6-10th skaters; now those skaters get sr Bs, and their GP skaters also want 1-2 senior Bs per piece for these challenger series. That's an extra 10-15 assignments they didn't give out 5-10 years ago.
One can say that maybe the assignments should spread out more to upcomers, not so much to top skaters; but the challenger series is meant to attract top skaters, and if everyone sees Liza compete a gazillion times and do well, then many other top skaters start wanting sr Bs...

Perhaps if I were a member or if I have been spending money going to USFS events, I would have more say about how they spend their money, but as since my own $$$ contribution to USFS is not going up, I wish they send more, but understand if they don't

 

[mgobluegirl]

At least each of those teams got to go once. It's not like they didn't get any international experience for the season.

 

[semogal]

So what is up with the Parsons? Do they have a second JGP event? I just looked at the standings and it shows them as being substitutes for upcoming competitions.

 

[chameleonster]

The Parsons were originally assigned to Estonia, I believe. The standings haven't been updated, but they're on the entry list for Germany now.

Not a great competition for McNamara/Carpenter, they're going to want to look much sharper at JGPF. It was a pretty good competition for Parsons and Carreira/Ponomarenko, the former because their rivals look vulnerable, and the latter because their chances for JGPF look good. If Parsons can skate really well in Germany, they could potentially pass M/C.

 

[CassAgain]

Team M/C have to fix that level 2 spin, like yesterday.

Not their best on either program. Hopefully they will be able to use the experience to come back stronger at the JGPF.

 

[Chemistry66]

So what is up with the Parsons? Do they have a second JGP event? I just looked at the standings and it shows them as being substitutes for upcoming competitions.

The standings list has been updated to show Parsons/Parsons at Germany!

 

[semogal]

Thanks for the updates on the Parsons. I am looking forward to their next outing because I love their programs this year. Their SD is still my favorite so far.

 

[Dobre]

Team M/C have to fix that level 2 spin, like yesterday.

Yes, they are trying something new; but they already have the new lifts. The opening spin position is ugly and the spin is hurting their scores. Time to let it go, I hope. (Nice exit now on the second lift though).

 

[Jun Y]

I am not saying that USFSA has to send Gropman/Somerville and Gunter/Weiner for a second JGP. There are, as Sylvia pointed out, a couple of other junior teams. What does not sit well with me is that USFSA has decided to waste several JGP spots that our teams earned at last year's junior worlds. USFSA has not wasted any ladies or men spots, only dance. Which other federations throw away their spots? Usually small and poor feds. Are we aspiring to be like Kazakhstan now?

And ... What if McNamara/Carpenter and the Parsons siblings had moved up to senior like FSUers demanded? Who would we send now? No one?

 

[Sylvia]

To play devil's advocate , is it unreasonable to have criteria that must be met for a singles skater or team to be assigned to a second JGP? Criteria that the coaches and skaters are informed about by USFS ahead of time?

 

[Jun Y]

To play devil's advocate , is it unreasonable to have criteria that must be met for a singles skater or team to be assigned to a second JGP? Criteria that the coaches and skaters are informed about by USFS ahead of time?

What if we plain flat don't have enough teams that meet USFS's criteria?

I don't know how exactly USFS chose these criteria. Oddly enough, the criteria they set are sufficient to fill up all the available spots in singles and pairs but not dance. Wow wouldn't it be nicer to have fewer dance slots available?

ISU also sets "objective" minimum TES for ISU championships. If not enough skaters meet them, ie, if the cutoff criteria are too high too allow meaningful participation, ISU would lower them. As we Chinese say, points are dead, but people are alive.

What's the point of setting criteria if they discourage rather than promote participation and development? If I were a parent spending $$$ to fund my kid's skating and got discouraged by my federation in this way, I'd be more than happy and relieved to take my kid out of skating lessons and into coding camps thank you very much.

Having had poor days myself, I would understand if the reason is to save money. The other reasons proposed so far do not convince me.

 

[CassAgain]

Yes, they are trying something new; but they already have the new lifts. The opening spin position is ugly and the spin is hurting their scores. Time to let it go, I hope. (Nice exit now on the second lift though).

I really liked the spin in its first outing, but it looked...not great yesterday.

 

[jiejie]

What if we plain flat don't have enough teams that meet USFS's criteria?

<snip>
What's the point of setting criteria if they discourage rather than promote participation and development? If I were a parent spending $$$ to fund my kid's skating and got discouraged by my federation in this way, I'd be more than happy and relieved to take my kid out of skating lessons and into coding camps thank you very much.

Having had poor days myself, I would understand if the reason is to save money. The other reasons proposed so far do not convince me.

This year, there just aren't that many ISU junior age-eligible teams. Efimova/Petrov is the only team in the Intl Selection Pool that didn't get a JGP, but they are a new team and likely just aren't ready at the JGP competition level. Beckers are not even in the Pool, I don't know if they split or what. Most other teams are too young or too new for sending them to a JGP berth to make sense. That leaves two that got one JGP but not a second, even though the spots were there: Gropman/Somerville and Gunter/Wein--both of them Wheaton students under Kiliakov/Novak.

We've been discussing this by putting ourselves in USFS' shoes. Maybe our perspective is incorrect. It's possible that their coaches made the decision to not put them out for a second JGP because they felt the time was better spent working on program issues that cropped up the first outing. It's possible the coaches want a break from traveling for at least a week--Novak at least, has to have been on the road with Wheaton skaters for every week (except for Saransk) since the series started. It's possible that the parents of the skaters, who are in school, said "one JGP only" to avoid the additional disruption of losing yet another week to international travel/competition. So there may be plausible reasons other than USFS decision-making, that have resulted in unused spots. I tend to believe that money wasn't the issue and if USFS had the spots, they made them available to those in the Pool but were turned down. Maybe somebody with insider information will clear this up for us.

On a separate subject, I think McNamara/Carpenter free dance is going to be a vehicle that sinks their boat this season. They can tinker with the elements and improve levels, etc, but I think the fundamental problem is weak concept and music selection. they should consider scrapping this program and trying to pull together something else by JGPF. I'm not aware of any competition they have to enter before then, so there is time. (I believe they don't have to compete at US qualifying Regionals or Sectionals.)

 

[Sylvia]

This year, there just aren't that many ISU junior age-eligible teams. Efimova/Petrov is the only team in the Intl Selection Pool that didn't get a JGP, but they are a new team and likely just aren't ready at the JGP competition level. Beckers are not even in the Pool, I don't know if they split or what.

Alina Efimova & Alexander Petrov were added recently to the ISP (after Challenge Cup last weekend? like Charlotte Maxwell & Ryan Devereaux were). The Beckers and Erdman/Shchepetov (ETA: who are still competing together this season) were included when the ISP list originally was published in late April, but their names were subsequently removed.

ETA that I posted this a few days before the ISP was first published:

Cameron Colucci, who will turn 15 in June, is listed on IPS. He and Katherine Grosul have skated together since late 2011/early 2012 - they placed 10th in Junior at Nationals and 6th in Adv. Novice at the Bavarian Open (their international debut).

 

[jiejie]

Thanks Sylvia--I thought I had seen the Beckers on the ISP when it came out then when their names disappeared, assumed I had been hallucinating! Does anybody know what is going on with them this season? Injury, quit, split? I believe the other two pairs you mentioned did split.

 

[Dobre]

To play devil's advocate , is it unreasonable to have criteria that must be met for a singles skater or team to be assigned to a second JGP? Criteria that the coaches and skaters are informed about by USFS ahead of time?

I don't think it's unreasonable. It's a safe political play. But it's an unwise athletic one.

 

[mgobluegirl]

There were pairs spots we didn't use last year as well. I seem to remember that after Weinberg/Fernandez unexpectedly won their first JGP, there was some scrambling/shuffling to get them a second assignment because USFS had already given up the spots. Not using all of our spots isn't unprecedented when there aren't many competitive teams to fill them.

 

[Moustaffask8r]

What if we plain flat don't have enough teams that meet USFS's criteria?

I don't know how exactly USFS chose these criteria. Oddly enough, the criteria they set are sufficient to fill up all the available spots in singles and pairs but not dance. Wow wouldn't it be nicer to have fewer dance slots available?

ISU also sets "objective" minimum TES for ISU championships. If not enough skaters meet them, ie, if the cutoff criteria are too high too allow meaningful participation, ISU would lower them. As we Chinese say, points are dead, but people are alive.

What's the point of setting criteria if they discourage rather than promote participation and development? If I were a parent spending $$$ to fund my kid's skating and got discouraged by my federation in this way, I'd be more than happy and relieved to take my kid out of skating lessons and into coding camps thank you very much.

Having had poor days myself, I would understand if the reason is to save money. The other reasons proposed so far do not convince me.

I think, and i might be wrong... I found really sad that USFSA is sending a lot of Senior teams who probably are going to be done after this cycle to some Senior B competition. I would rather invest on younger teams, junior one instead of investing on people that are clearly going nowhere... nice people but, in the long run, they wn't be there...

 

[wickedwitch]

I think, and i might be wrong... I found really sad that USFSA is sending a lot of Senior teams who probably are going to be done after this cycle to some Senior B competition. I would rather invest on younger teams, junior one instead of investing on people that are clearly going nowhere... nice people but, in the long run, they wn't be there...

Who are you talking about? All of the non-GP senior teams with internationals are quite young.