Two Rivals, Same Coach - One Succeeded, The other... not so much

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Seerek, Jul 15, 2010.

  1. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    Any examples where two rival competitors ended up having the same coach, but from that point onward, there appeared to be a wide gap in success between the rivals?
     
  2. IceKween

    IceKween New Member

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    Sasha Cohen and NNN?
     
  3. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Maybe there are more examples, but I think in most cases elite skaters will leave for another coach if they feel a rival is receiving more attention, or if they feel any conflicts are hampering their development. (E.g., Yagudin left Mishin for TAT, while Plushy remained).

    So far the coaching situation for ice dancers V/M and D/W hasn't appeared to be a drawback -- it bodes watching now that each team are no longer just up-and-comers, but rivals for the top spot, especially with their ascendancy at Olympics and Worlds, and the retirement of other top teams.
     
  4. loopey

    loopey Well-Known Member

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    IIRC Russian/Soviet Teams of the past may have some examples, although I can't think of any.

    Moskvina coached: Natalia/Artur & Bechke/Petrov
    Moskvina coached: Artur/Oksana & Elena/Anton
    Tat coached: AngelicaKrylova/OlegO & PashaGrishuk/Platov

    In the above cases IMHO no one team seemed to suffer, so perhaps these coaches know how to balance two top teams. I know that K/O left TAT, was it because they felt she was spending too much time with G/P? IF so, I am still not sure this is an example of the original question posed because they were the #2 Ice Dance team in the World. Hardly bad results.
     
  5. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    Jill Trenary and Caryn Kadavy both had Carlo Fassi as their coach. Caryn did leave Fassi later because of the rivalry between her and Jill.

    Tim and Evan both had Frank for a while.
     
  6. pumba

    pumba New Member

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    I even checked the Wiki in case I missed something important :D. I thought it was Linichuck who coached both couples and G/P left to TAT because of Linichuck's favoritism towards K/O :)
     
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  7. Kwantumleap

    Kwantumleap New Member

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    The more interesting version for me is Two rival coaches, one skater - one succeeded, the other... not so much :)
     
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  8. MR-FAN

    MR-FAN Kostner Softie

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    Both Jeremy and Mroz were coached by Tom Z, both placed 1st and 2nd at the 2009 Nats, then Jeremy left Tom and had a very good season, while Mroz... :slinkaway

    But it's too early to write Brandon off
     
  9. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Scott Hamilton Vs Scott Cramer
     
  10. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    Frank Carroll and the Kwan sisters. Didn't the Asada sisters also have the same coach(es) while in Japan, as well as sharing Rafael Artourian?
     
  11. MOIJTO

    MOIJTO Banned Member

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    Most coaches have many skaters in their stable and not all can be stars!
     
  12. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

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    Especially in Michelle and Karen's case, can you really consider that rivalry? It was pretty clear who was looking at a shot at the very top of the sport fairly early, and it wasn't a matter of Frank focusing on one over the other. Plus is Mao's sister at or likely to ever reach the degree of success she has?

    I would think in most cases it's nothing to do with sharing a coach, at least when we're talking young singles skaters. Some have more potential than others, some have fewer injuries, some have a different work ethic.
     
  13. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    I would imagine its really hard for a sibling to watch the other shoot up the ranks while they just kind of...don't. Or even for someone like Emily Hugues who is an actual Olympian but has to be compared to her sister who is the OGM.
     
  14. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    I think you're right about that, I don't ever recall Tarasova coaching K/0. I've read so many different versions of how exactly it went down. Linichuk claims that G/P willingly left while G/P claim that Linichuk left them in the cold because she was determined to push them into the professional ranks so she could lead K/O to the 98 gold.

    Romanova & Yaroshenko also left Linichuk for somewhat similar reasons, because she was focusing much of her attention on her Russian teams (K/O and L/A) and so they made the move to Tarasova in 97 or 98 if I'm not mistaken.

    I wonder if you could include Natalia Dubova's pupils in this discussion back when she was the premier Soviet ice dance coach. Usova & Zhulin did pretty well for themselves anyways but they were in the company of a technically superiour team in Klimova & Ponomarenko. And then of course Grishuk & Platov overtook them although G/P had already left Dubova when that happened. I might also mention Navka & Gezalian when they were being coached by Dubova (they were her 4th team in 1991 I think). They had very strong programs in 1992, 1993, and 1994 but in 1992, they couldn't even make it to the Olympics or Worlds because of the other 3 strong teams while in 1993 and 1994, they barely made much of an impression on the judges (although I thought they should have placed higher in both 93 and 94).

    1993 Worlds
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUW8jr5oc3c

    1994 Worlds
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfCPc67oprk&feature=related

    Vyacheslav Zagarodnyuk (sp?) did ok for himself but he wasn't nearly as successful as his training mate Viktor Petrenko or Oksana Baiul. I can't think of any other examples off the top of my head.
     
  15. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    When Carlo Fassi was coaching Curry, Cousins and Hamilton in the mid- to late-70s, he was also coaching a good number of skaters from what I think was pretty much every country in Europe at the time :lol: I guess there would have been some rivalries there...
     
  16. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    I heard that Frank got Karen in order to get Michelle. Danny Kwan did not want them to be apart. Frank was okay with it because Karen was good enough to fit in.
     
  17. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    It made it easier to manipulate the results of a whole competition by politiking for the order of placements of his own skaters because of how the factor placement ordinals worked.
     
  18. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    imo karen had great potential. although michelle became known for her artistry, I remember in the beginning when they were both competing together karen in particular was commended for her artistry and lyrical arms, while comparatively michelle was supposed to be the athletic one who could land a lot of jumps. karen, being older and soon after moving onto college, probably felt with a younger sibling rising to prominence in the sport and so far ahead of her that she was meant for other things. but I think she did have the potential to be a very good skater in her own right.
     
  19. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    2 coaches that don't seem to have such issues: Nikolai Morozov and Tom Z.

    Morozov was coaching Shizuka and Miki at the same time for a while right? And also Oda and Takahashi?

    Tom Z. was coaching Abbott and Bradley for a while before Abbott switched and currently he has Flatt and Zawadzki and Gilles, though Alexe is a notch below the other 2 girls at this point.
     
  20. ponta1

    ponta1 New Member

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    Wasn't Morozov taking on Oda part of the reason why Takahashi left?
     
  21. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    Interesting!

    I was fascinated by Karen/Michelle because of the lack of physical similarity between them.
    If I hadn't known that they were sisters, I might not have guessed.
     
  22. Lainerb

    Lainerb New Member

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    Miki went to Morozov after the 2005-2006 season when Shizuka had retired by that point. Miki was with Carol Heiss-Jenkins during 05-06.
     
  23. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    interesting and I am assuming this was after the Olympic season. Who was Caryn's coach after that?
     
  24. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    I heard that Linda Fratianne's mother had something to do with Frank being approached to coach Michelle and Karen. But sure they probably both came as a package deal, tho' I wonder whether Frank saw more potential in Michelle when they were young. I believe Karen had a lot of wonderful qualities as a skater, and that she inspired Michelle in many ways. Karen choreographed Michelle's latest exhibition, Winter Song -- it's quintessential Michelle!

    On manleywoman's podcast, Frank indicated that he coaches a lot of students of all ages, those who are serious about progressing in the sport, as well as people who are just interested in learning because they enjoy skating and want to improve.
     
  25. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Well-Known Member

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    i don't think morosov coached both Shizuka and Miki at the same time... Miki only came to morosov after the disastrous performance at 2006 olympics, and by that time Shizuka was in semi-retirement
     
  26. screech

    screech Well-Known Member

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    Lee Barkell had both Jeff Buttle and Chris Mabee (and Joey Russell) competing at Canadians at the same time. Obviously, Jeff was the most successful of the bunch. The most 'even' skaters I think Lee had was when he had both Jeff and Nobunari Oda competing in senior at the same time, where Oda came 4th at his first Worlds (Jeff was 6th that year) then Oda was 7th the next (Jeff 6th again). At the 2006 GPF Jeff was 2nd, Oda was 3rd. Of course Jeff won Worlds the following year (when Oda took his break) so that's the extent of their major competitions.

    Also, didn't Rafael have Jeff at the same time as Ivan Dinev? Again, Jeff was more successful.
     
  27. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    I don't remember. I think it was either an old coach she had prior to Fassi, or maybe it was Evelyn Kramer, the Spin Doctor, whom we often saw by her side in all those pro competitions that Karyn competed in.
     
  28. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Let's make something VERY CLEAR, I said Karen was good enough to fit in. She was at least top 7 at 3 Sr. Nationals in a row and received international assignments. Furthermore, Karen is a very good coach, by all accounts. She would have been a very desirable pupil by any coach.

    However, Danny needed for his family to be in a maximum of 2 locations, so when every coach and their sister wanted coachless Triple Toe landing Michelle Kwan after 1991 Jr Nationals, Danny said Michelle and Karen had to stay together.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2010
  29. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    My comment about Karen and Michelle wasn't a negative one.
     
  30. poths

    poths Well-Known Member

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    Doug Leigh had Elvis and Steven Cousins at the same time, although I'm sure Robert Tebby was more than influential with the latter.

    Kudriatsevs had (every eastern Euro lady at some point?) Volchkova and Lautowa at the same time. Vika has a hatrick of euro medals, Lautowa managed an 8th at worlds and was IMHO the better skater.

    Steuer had S&S, Fitze and Rex :p and then Volosozhar and Morozov at the same time.