Tuition Fees and Student Loan Debt: A Shock?

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by overedge, Sep 26, 2012.

  1. suep1963

    suep1963 Well-Known Member

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    I went to a state university (local) and lived at home. Between work, school, theatre stuff, I was only there at night--seemed seemed silly to pay money for a bed when I lived 10 minutes from campus. I did spend a year in London (study abroad program), which was more expensive, but I'm trying to remember what it cost (I was in college 82-87) and if I remember right, it was about $3000 a semester, and there wasn't a limit on credits for the semester. 15 was full time, but I usually had 18.
  2. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    I agree. I am currently in the business field, and people, native speakers of English or not, write poorly. And since good writing is not awarded, I find my writing more and more like my coworkers'. :scream:

    Critical thinking is still important, though, as our field is a fairly technical one. But being "obedient", networking with the right people, self promoting and playing office politics, even more important.

    Currently at my state some univ chancellors are touting the new $10,000 degree program ideas but the ones who are toying with the ideas are the less prestigious univs, and a couple of them, in less expensive parts of the state.
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2012
  3. GarrAarghHrumph

    GarrAarghHrumph I can kill you with my brain

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    I work in marketing, where the ability to speak and write well is considered extremely important, and can make or break your career as much as your financial and analytical skills can.
  4. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    Oh yeah. :rolleyes:

    What do these four numbers have in common?
    $27,500, $18,260, $32,916, $36,140?


    ....They're the net price the same family (same income, assets, home equity, student savings) would be expected to pay at four colleges that each ostensibly meet "full need" -- as I tell parents, it is "Need" as the colleges see it. Remarkably, the way they seen need seems to vary inversely with the size of their endowments. But each college's representative touts the line that they give very generous aid, because, after all, they meet full need.

    Parents seem to find it pretty eye-opening.

    But, there are some great colleges with big automatic merit aid offers for kids with great test scores.
  5. genegri

    genegri Active Member

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    I seriously have no right to complain because I myself am not a very good writer. I might be one of your coworkers. :lol: :p But I recognize good and elegant writing and appreciate it. Just don't seem to be capable of it myself.

    I also work in marketing and am pretty successful if I may say so myself, but I am not a particularly strong writer. I imagine we must have different functions. I am not doing products. I am doing market research and strategic planning. In my function essay style writing is not very important; but guess what is? Beside quantitative skills that is. Yep, making power point slides, the mother of all evils. I must say I am great at concise and tablet style writing, suitable for presentations and emails. My job seems to consist of giving one presentation after another lately. :scream:

    Completely agree with speaking well is extremely important in marketing. Our entire marketing department are native English speakers. A far cry form our neighbor the IT department. :D
  6. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    I'm not a good writer either, but I used to apply basic grammar and basic writing principles fairly well, but I stopped bothering with that as I realized I didn't need them for my job. :shuffle:
  7. maatTheViking

    maatTheViking Well-Known Member

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    I don't know anything about marketing, but I think that good writing may not mean essay style?

    Just general composition (getting you point across fast in email? As you said, good presentations? ) and other stuff that might not matter in other jobs.

    I'm an engineer an I know I write repetitively an un inspired, essay style or not, in my native tongue or English. Luckily it doesn't matter by much in my job, and I know enough to do better than some of my peers.
  8. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    In business, the style of writing that's important to be good at is technical writing.
  9. madm

    madm Active Member

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    Correct. As a former technical writer for a tech company, I can't tell you how many badly written PowerPoint presentations I was forced to listen to! Too much information crammed onto a slide, illegible font sizes, lack of clear ideas, no parallel construction, crazy use of colors, tables and charts no one can possibly understand, failure to state the main point of the presentation ... Oh, the horror of it all! :scream:

    When I was first hired many years ago, I was the first professional writer in my local division. It took one big project during my first year for managers to realize that engineers and computer scientists cannot write! I worked with the first human factors engineer they had hired to design the software interface and test it, and then write the tutorial and user guide for it. It was a smashing success, and opened the door for hiring more technical writers. It's not easy to take a complicated subject and simplify it for end users. Most technical folks have no understanding of how to write for an audience.

    Sorry to get so off topic ...

    On the subject of college debt, let's remember that there is financial aid for skaters. Anyone who is competing at the Nov-Sr level and is placing in the top 6 at a qualifying competition can apply for aid from the Memorial Fund. And if you are a college student still involved in skating in any way (competing, judging, volunteering), you can apply for the CSAP aid that is also part of the Memorial Fund application. The awards I know of in recent years have ranged from $700-2000, so that's a great help for the college tuition bill. There are other scholarships listed on the USFS Athlete Funding page as well. The deadline for the Memorial Fund application is in early to mid Sept. every year. There are eligibility requirements related to parent's income level and skating history.
  10. Prancer

    Prancer The "specialness" that is Staff Member

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    I think the style of writing most important in business is business writing. Technical writing is for the technical work. There are some commonalities, but business writing is, IMO at least, quite different.
  11. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    I don't know how tuition got to be so shockingly high. I went to a private college in the early '70s, it was $6,000 a year for tuition and room and board. Now, it's $45,000 to $50,000+.

    We were able to pay for both kids to go to a 4 year, live on campus, undergraduate college. Both were on the higher end price wise. But, we told them they had to get loans for graduate degrees. My daughter is at a state school getting her masters in Occupational Therapy (a great, wide open field). She used her inheritance from her grandparents for the first year and now haas taken out a loan. Not too bad, since it's a state school. My son is in a private Law School, but he has a $20,000 a year merit scholarship. Which he has been able to keep for 3 years, based on grades and class rank. He also was just offered a job at the firm he was summer associate at, this past summer. so, he should be fine. But, most of the students he is in school with have $$$$$$ debt and not much prospect of a job. Not that they are not smart and hard working, just a glut of lawyers out there.
  12. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    I think of them as the same thing. Maybe I should have said "non-fiction writing". Because in both cases the purpose of the writing is to convey information. In technical writing, it's technical information but many of the same rules apply as for business writing.

    My college cost 3x what it cost when I went there in the late 70s. It's crazy!
  13. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    It is crazy how much college tuition has gone up while the average income (or even just the income of a college graduate) has not gone up nearly the same degree.
  14. madm

    madm Active Member

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    The reason college tuition has gone up so much at public institutions is that the state and federal monies given to them have plummeted. They have to charge students more to cover the deficit in funding. There was an article in my local paper today describing just how Colorado State University is planning to get more money by admitting more out-of-state students (who pay 3x tuition) and by increasing undergraduate enrollments.

    http://www.coloradoan.com/article/2...lment-2012?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

    Personally I think the $6,874 in-state tuition (which includes a state opportunity fund contribution) is a bargain compared to what many other colleges charge.
  15. vesperholly

    vesperholly Well-Known Member

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  16. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    That explains state schools, but not private. Private schools were already over charging and get alumni endowments. There is no reason for the cost of private schools to have increased almost 10 times what they cost 30 years ago. I would also be curious to see the progress of the increase. How much of it has been in the last 5 - 10 years.
  17. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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  18. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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  19. Prancer

    Prancer The "specialness" that is Staff Member

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    That's one of the reasons, and it's an important one, but it's only one of the reasons.

    A bargain, relatively speaking, but it's a state school. Huge lecture classes, multiple choice tests and no critical thinking.

    There are several theories about why this is, all of them probably at least somewhat true. Retirement packages for professors. A limited pool of highly skilled people who can't be replaced by machines (although the number of students can certainly be increased through the use of technology) and expect to be well compensated. Exponential increases in administrative positions. Increases in federal financial aid. Increasing overhead costs. Decreased money from other sources (alumni donations, research grants, state aid). And several more. It's all mixed together into a fine, unaffordable stew.
  20. TheGirlCanSkate

    TheGirlCanSkate New Member

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    My son's trio program was just cut. It's a big loss. He is getting a second job to cover that loss. Lovely how aid disappears overnight.
  21. madm

    madm Active Member

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    From Payscale.com:

    2012 ROI Rankings: College Education Value Compared

    With all of the expense and time required to attend college, does earning a degree pay off long-term? Yes, depending on which school you choose. PayScale has ranked more than 850 U.S. colleges (for both in and out-of-state tuition when applicable) by their college tuition ROI - what you pay to attend versus what you get back in lifetime earnings.
    http://www.payscale.com/college-education-value
  22. Prancer

    Prancer The "specialness" that is Staff Member

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  23. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    Damn, my fiance's major was top 3, but he quit the industry. :rofl: At least he's still doing something related to the top 10...

    We have a high school student interning in our lab right now, hasn't decided which college or major she's going to do. I told her, "If you like math and physics at all, go for engineering. It pays well and we will never lack for need of them."

    I'm kind of sad I hated math and physics in college. :eek:
  24. jeffisjeff

    jeffisjeff Well-Known Member

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  25. Prancer

    Prancer The "specialness" that is Staff Member

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    Geography is a great major right now, especially if you go into GIS. There are more jobs than there are people to fill them, and the pay is good. That's an option for people looking for four-year degrees who don't want to go the math and science route (although you do have to take a lot of statistics, especially for GIS). There is a wide variety of opportunities in different fields, too.

    I don't know that we will never lack need for engineers. South Korea would say otherwise.

    Tell me about it :p.

    You can make those majors work out for you, but you have to have a plan fairly early on and focus on developing some specialized applied skills while you are in school. Employers right now are looking for people they don't have to train. And there are a lot of smart people who can think out there; what else have you got?
  26. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    They could always start tearing down bridges and building new ones. :lol: Our infrastructure is pretty shoddy at the moment, but I'm not sure if public sector engineering pays well. I imagine the government would get overpriced private contractors, at any rate. :p

    I find interesting that chemical engineering is still on that list. My uncle is an educated chemical engineer (has his PhD in it, but maybe that's why - he was overqualified?) and had to quit the industry because he couldn't find a job.

    Yeah, I'd lump stats into math too. :eek:

    Yeah I think I had one thing going for me since I was NOT at the top of my class - I learn protocols ridiculously fast. Show me once, let me do it once on my own, and then off I go. The issue there is that I still needed someone to give me a chance, so they could be a good reference.
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2012
  27. Prancer

    Prancer The "specialness" that is Staff Member

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    I've heard that a lot. That and a couple of other things make me wonder about that list. Biomedical engineering is at the top of some other lists I know of, and I don't even see that in the top 10.

    I think the BLS might be a better place to find reliable stats: http://www.bls.gov/ooh/

    ETA: Eys, chemical engineering may pay well if you get a job, but the projected growth rate is :yikes:: http://www.bls.gov/ooh/occupation-f...gree&training=None&newjobs=&growth=&submit=GO
  28. GarrAarghHrumph

    GarrAarghHrumph I can kill you with my brain

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    Likewise India.


    I agree with you - in my area of the country, I do *not* advise students to pick chemE, unless they love it. Too many graduates, not enough jobs.

    I also agree with you re: your uncle's PhD making him unemployable. Often in engineering, a masters (plus work experience) is valued, but more than a masters can educate you right out of the industry. What did he end up doing outside of the industry?
  29. maatTheViking

    maatTheViking Well-Known Member

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    Definitely depends on how narrowly you define Chemical Engineering. I started out studying ChemE (switched to SW later), and most of my class that I still have contact with ended up in the medicinal industry (which is big in Denmark). As a biochem engineer, unless you want to do QA, it seems you NEED a phD - a lot of them got a phD. Organic chem seems to be the same way, whereas 'traditional' chemical engineering does not.

    those people are actually the only ones, in any field, that have done a phD for employment reasons, and not for the love of research (different if you want to be in academia, of course)
  30. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    Commerce software. He makes a crapton of money at it now (this is the uncle that leases BMWs), so he's not hurting that his education was kind of for nothing. :lol:

    My boss has also said that a PhD in the hard sciences often makes you overqualified for every job except academic research, where you have to teach.
  31. vesperholly

    vesperholly Well-Known Member

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    That's quite a generalization. I went to a very large (27,000 plus) state school, and I routinely had classes that were 10-15 students. That wasn't just when I was an upperclassman, either - my freshman honors English "colloquium" was specifically limited to 12 people. All of my major and minor classes, journalism and visual communication design, were fewer than 20, and pre-journalism majors got JMC classes as freshmen. I was able to work with my professors closely, and got plenty of attention as needed. However, both those programs require students to apply and be accepted into them. I'm sure the experience was different for English majors, of which there were probably 10 times the students as JMC or VCD.

    Most of my "large" classes, which were the liberal ed requirements like rocks for jocks and sociology, were 40-60 people. I think the largest classes I had were US History, which maybe had 100 people? Many of whom never even showed up until exam day. :lol: In the case of sociology or micro-econ, I was MORE than happy to be lectured in a crowd and take a multiple choice test. I effing HATED micro-econ. HATED.

    Did I think critically? :COP:
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2012
  32. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    Personally I think it's a mistake to pick a major based on where the jobs are and nothing else. I dated a guy getting a PhD in Chemistry and the area he was studying in was hiring like crazy when he started but by the time he got the degree the bottom had fallen out of that market. So he was stuck.

    I think it makes sense that if you like to do something but don't love it and the market is good in it to lean that way. But doing something you won't really enjoy just because there are jobs in it tends to backfire IME. Even if the job market stays the same, you won't be a good employee most of the time and so you won't advance as much.
  33. Prancer

    Prancer The "specialness" that is Staff Member

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    Really? Huh.

    ITA. My advice to students is always to major in things you really want to do, but have a Plan B. Minors in something that will give you an edge in your field. Focus on something that will give you some sort of specialized skill.

    But if you're talking in terms of whether or not a degree pays off in a well-paying job or not, which is, I believe, what we were doing, then the major counts for a lot.
  34. rfisher

    rfisher Satisfied skating fan

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    Sadly, many fields such as anthropology are returning to the days of wealthy students who can indulge themselves in interesting and fun knowledge. This was the absolute norm for anthro and archaeology until the 70s and 80s with the onset of cultural resource management. Every building project required an archaeological assessment and there was an explosion of CRM companies and direct increase in enrollments. Those days are gone and many of those companies have closed as the contracts dried up. Same with marine biology or paleontology. Every body loves dolphins or dinosaurs. Better be able to fund yourself in school and have a plan B to support yourself afterwards because 1 out of 50 or so grads will actually find employment. I knew a highly published paleontologist who was supported for years on post-doc contracts until a teaching position finally opened up. He was on the last possible post-doc and was looking at getting his high school teaching certificate just to find a job. It's all well and good while you're in college or even grad school until the money runs out, you're in your 30s and have to start supporting yourself and a family. That's not to say people shouldn't enter the fields; they just need to be fully informed about the realities. I've had too many students whining that "my mom told me I could be anything I wanted." Their moms left out those minor details about you can be anything you want, you just may not ever have the chance to actually do it.
  35. made_in_canada

    made_in_canada INTJ

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    Here anthropology is a growth industry. Every anthropology student I know (probably 20 or so) that's willing to do field work has a good job. They sometimes have camp work which isn't for everyone but they get paid decently and are generally pretty happy with their jobs.
  36. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    There're plenty of small upper division classes at the large state U down here. The honors program has small classes throughout I gather.

    True, classes are huge for things like History 101 and Computer science 101. But in many of those classes and from my experience, the standard and grading were tougher (at least when I went), as the profs screened for the good students.
    Anyway, I don't see a need for small classes for intro computer or math classes. If you are willing to do all the odd-numbered exercises in the book and check against the answers at the back, you'll learn the material quite well. You just need the prof if you can't figure out something. (That's how I learned calculus).

    The history classes I had, despite the large classes, required essay writing, essay exams, and reading a decent amount of work. History was one of the few depts that regularly made me rewrite stuff. I thought the history 101 prof was tougher than the English 101 prof, which gave Bs and As on most assignments. (That one had a small class.) There was a reason students in my state regularly do history classes in community coleges instead--avoid the reading and essays!

  37. mgobluegirl

    mgobluegirl Well-Known Member

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    I think people get disappointed, too, when they find out that most of the jobs that do exist in marine biology have a lot less to do with dolphins and a lot more to do with microscopic things that live in mud.
  38. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

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    What exactly spurred the rash of kids dreaming of marine biology anyway? I swear that 5 out of 10 freshmen wanted to be marine biologists for my entire teaching career--in a landlocked state no less. My 17 year old nephew has just given up the notion of marine biology. Is there a children's show about it that I missed?
  39. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    Free Willy? :D

    ETA: Seriously, I guess kids who are steered towards science but don't care greatly for physics and math will be drawn towards biology, but why marine bio and not a job at the zoo I don't have a clue
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2012
  40. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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    Maybe they imagine most of the work is on a ship or on a beach where they can tan or surf on their lunch hour. :lol: