Triple Axel Downgrader

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by tkaug, May 1, 2011.

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  1. tkaug

    tkaug New Member

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    Would you have DOWNGRADED Mao's Triple Axel in her Free Skating in the Worlds? It may have been a little short but not more than 1/2 rotation.

    It seems that the caller Shin Amano has such a unique standard for his judgings. All of ladies' Level 4 on Step Sequences except the one of Akiko Suzuki's short in 2010 4CC, are given by him, on the other hand, he downgraded 2 of Mao's 3 Triple Axels in 2010 Worlds when many of the medias and commentators did not agree with that. It shouldn't be up to the callers THIS MUCH how the results turn out.

    What do you think?
     
  2. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    The under-rotation of Mao's 3A in the LP was quite obvious in the replay, I thought. So yes, I agree with the downgrade.
     
  3. RunnersHigh

    RunnersHigh Well-Known Member

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    On the rotation and edge call, tech panels were considerably accurate, fair & strict!
    On spins not bad!
    On steps meh!

    Back to the topic, 3A DGed was fair, IMO.
     
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  4. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I would agree with her marking at this championship. 3F< in SP was a little harsh, but it's Amano.
     
  5. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Mao's calls. but not Kanako's and not Carolina's flip in the SP.

    And Rachael got level four steps for impersonating Charlie Sheen ravaging a hotel room?
     
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  6. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    I thought the 3a in the LP should be UR. A full downgrade seemed a bit harsh. And, Kanako combos in both programs didn't deserve to be called.
     
  7. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    Amano did not have the entire say. Miriam Loriol-Oberwiler (SUI) was the ATS. If she didn't agree with Amano, Controller Susan Lynch's decision would be the tiebreaker. So at least 2 of the tech team agreed with every call.
     
  8. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    I think her 3axel was obviously UR, even in real time. However, there were questionable calls. Most notably was that Kostner's 3flip was not UR in the short. It was easily UR if Mao's was. That may have been enough to save Kostner the bronze.
     
  9. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Not getting into it completely since I was suffering on a ridiculously laggy stream and therefore missed just about all of it.

    But even AuntJoyce thought Mao's 3A should have been < rather than <<.
     
  10. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I agree that < rather than <<. There is no way it was 1/2 rotation less than it should have been. If it was, she would have to land forward, which she didn't do.
     
  11. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Cheated and under-rotated, yes, but not that much for being downgraded, IMO.
     
  12. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I thought in both programs, the triple axel should have definitely gotten a < and not a <<. Even further, the triple axel in the LP had better rotation on it than in the SP. But either way, some of the calls in this entire event was very questionable and capricious at times.
     
  13. loulou

    loulou Well-Known Member

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    There's one point that's really important: you're more likely to find UR if you look for them.

    ---

    Some skaters who UR less than others, don't get all their jumps reviewed. Which means that some UR fall under the radar.

    On the other hand, the skaters known for UR issues get all their jumps reviewed. Which means that they get busted for jumps that are indeed UR, but to the same extent of some of those that aren't called.

    This is not only unfair for the competition result.
    This kills the spirit of the hammered skaters.

    ---

    Asada was probably unbeatable in the current crop, if it was the old CoP, under which she learned her technique.
    When rules changed, it became increasingly difficult for her.
    She looks sad and discouraged, season after season.
    I'm not sure the ISU is being smart pushing out skaters like Asada.

    ---

    They should start reviewing all the jumps, or none.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2011
  14. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    Seriously, if the calling is going to be strict, be strict to everyone. It's ridiculous not to call Carolina's flip in the short if they called Mao and Kanako.

    I also feel sorry for Kanako. She's already feeling the discouragement at her first Worlds! :(
     
  15. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    You know, Miki Ando had the same problem with her 3/3's. And she is still World champion and has never been in 6th at Worlds.
    The problem with Mao is not that. Her overall jumping technique is not good, and that's what hurt her the most. Even if complete, she doesn't have the GOE others have. ;)
     
  16. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    Not true. Ando was 6th at 2005 Worlds and finished even lower (15th) at following Olympics. She also finished 6th at Nationals that year.
    I'm kinda surprised she's been competing at Worlds since 2004. :eek:

    Anyways, despite her issues, Mao is still the first one of this pack to become a two-time World Champion. That just speaks to her talents. ;)
     
  17. loulou

    loulou Well-Known Member

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    Since the thread is about UR, I referred to that.
    But you can easily apply my theory to jump quality or jump techinque: in the old CoP nobody cared if your 3-3 had both triples UR, if your 3A was UR, if all your jumps didn't deserve positive GOE. As long as the jumps looked there, you were all set.
    Which would have made Asada really hard to beat.

    That said. Even though Mao has been my favourite skater for quite a while, I'm not blind. I can see her faults. And since I tend to be pretty fair, I acknoledge that she deserves her scores.

    She doesn't deserve though, to have all of her jumps under review, while her competitors don't. Because, as I said, that kills her rankings and her spirit.

    So, again: is the ISU sure they want to force out a skater like Asada this way?
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2011
  18. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    :lol: The discouragement?? She got 8th, that's not bad at all. Kanako is a rising star and she will continue to be on the world scene for many, many years. I don't think she has anything to worry about.
     
  19. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    Carolina's flip in the SP has to be the worst call of the ladies event.

    I think where Mao is running into trouble on her 3a is the combined pre-rotation and under-rotation. Together, it adds up to more than .5, apparently.
     
  20. JerseySlore

    JerseySlore Active Member

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    I'm not saying pre-rotation is a good technique, but i dont see why it matters as long as the actual rotation in the air was sufficient to evade << call.
     
  21. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    Well, if we're talking about pre-rotation on the axel. Evan had it pretty easy even though his was one of the worst. :shuffle:
     
  22. a56

    a56 New Member

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    Shin Amano did an excellent job both last year and this year at worlds, I thought. The downgrades were correct. As another poster pointed out, remember that Susan Lynch and Myriam Loriol-Oberwiler had the power to overrule him if they disagreed with him.
     
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  23. loulou

    loulou Well-Known Member

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    It's not that the dowgrades were un-correct.
    It's more that some of the non downgrades should have been.
     
  24. Bev Johnston

    Bev Johnston New Member

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    Can anyone refresh my memory on why Mao abandoned the 3Lz? Was it because of the wrong edge takeoff, and if so, would it be more advantageous for her to take the deduction on the edge call than to keep getting << on the 3A?

    For me, underrotated 3a aside, the "whole picture" of Mao's skating was shocking. She looks nothing like the skater she used to be. She looks waif-skinny and her artistry appears to be gone.
     
  25. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I think she may have felt a bit de-spirited and it reflected in her skating. How do you pick yourself up again and again when something is constantly kicking you down?
     
  26. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    She did include the lutz in the LP this season.

    There was something definitely off about Mao at Worlds. She reportedly lost a considerable amount of weight before the competition. She appeared much better at 4CC.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2011
  27. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Well said. I think the judges are excessively hard on Mao and they are not consistent, skater to skater.
     
  28. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    I believe she said she was sick before Worlds so she lost some training time.
     
  29. Artifice

    Artifice Guest

    I believe Mao deserved a < on her 3 axel, but not a << because in that case she would have landed forward and probably fall, wich was definitely not the case.
    And even a < could have been questionnable (I need to see the slow motion) because a < is supposed to be given if there is MORE than 1/4 cheated, and I'm not even sure the axel was more than 1/4 underrotated. If it was 1/4 then there should have been no technical deduction, only negative GOE because of the unperfect landing.
     
  30. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    It was clearly landed forwards, the decision was definitely correct.

    What was absolutely scandalous was the GOE given by the judges.

    The downgrade and landing on two feet together should result pretty much automatically with a -3 (deductions are cumulative).
     
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