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Tran Aiming to Obtain Japanese Citizenship

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by ice9, Apr 22, 2012.

  1. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Rule 109(2)(c) doesn't solve the problem created by Rule 109(3) when both members of the pair or dance couple want to switch federations because, in that instance, they are subject to the waiting periods of Rule 109(2)(b)(ii) and (iii). Since Shibutani & Shibutani and Takahashi & Tran skated at both Four Continents and Worlds this season, they are subject to the waiting period of 109(2)(b)(iii) -- two whole seasons. Therefore, the Shibutanis could not represent Japan, and Takahashi & Tran could not represent Canada at the next Winter Olympic Games, even if they wanted to.

    Now if, for example, Tran wanted to team up with a Canadian woman and skate pairs for Canada, he would be subject to the twelve-month waiting period of Rule 109(2)(c) and the new pair would be able to compete internationally in the 2012-13 season.
     
  2. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    I don't see that Rule 109(2)(c) says this, but I can imagine it being interpreted this way, because while it would be very easy to say "If both partners switch to a country in which they hold citizenship, they must follow the singles rules and sit out two years", especially since they have the precedent of the Duchesnays, but the ISU has a habit of not saying everything explicitly in their documentation.

    All of this is moot if the original contention from when they were Novice that the Shibutanis' father is a Japanese citizen is not true, as it would be a disaster for the Japanese Fed to try to get an exception for them to be citizens when they would take the place of a team that already holds Japanese citizenship and has competed for Japan.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2012
  3. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    The two-year rule was instituted long after the Duchesnays retired, so I don't think that they are much of a precedent. In fact, the one-year rule wasn't adopted until after Julia Soldatova switched from Russia to Belarus between the 1999-2000 and 2000-01 seasons, and the two-year rule for skaters who have competed at ISU Championships is more recent than that.

    That said, the Duchesnays never represented Canada at an ISU Championship, and it was well more than two full seasons between their one and only senior-level international competition representing Canada at Nebelhorn and their first international competition for France.
     
  4. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    The two-year rule was instituted for all skaters before it was amended for pairs and dance teams.

    A team does not have to compete in an ISU championship to be held to the rule to sit out, and the Duchesnays are a recent enough and important enough example to have created awareness when the two-year rule was implemented and then amended. Sibling teams in general are the most likely example of being able to choose between or switch countries, since they tend to hold the same citizenships.
     
  5. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    But if the skater, pair, or couple hasn't competed in an ISU Championship in their last season competing for the first federation, the waiting period is only one year, not two.

    I'm sure the ISU had not forgotten about the Duchesnays, but their situation was very different from what exists today. There were far fewer international competitions when they represented Canada -- very few Senior "B" events, no Four Continents and none of the events in France, Russia, China, or even Germany that later became part of the Grand Prix. So, for a Canadian pair or dance couple that couldn't finish in the Top Three at Nationals, there weren't many opportunities to compete internationally. Nowadays, there are.

    I still don't see why anyone seriously thinks the Shibutanis would want to switch federations at this point even if they could. A greater chance of being able to skate in the World Team Trophy and the Team Event at the Olympics just doesn't seem worth it, given what they would be giving up. The logical time, if they were to do it at all, would have been at the same point in their career as the Reeds did it, before they started competing as seniors internationally. The same goes for Takahashi & Tran.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2012
  6. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    That is why it is important for the ISU to be aware of the possibilities when they are making their own eligibility rules, especially now that there are two minimum score requirements -- one for GP, one for championships -- that give incentives to the major Feds especially to send skaters to them.

    The Beiers, for example, were born in the Philippines and moved to Germany as children. They competed for Germany, but if they might also have skated for the Philippines had they lost their German championship spot and all opportunities to compete at championships dried up.
     
  7. Sylvia

    Sylvia Preparing for U.S. club comp. season!

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    I came across this Japan Times article from December 2011: Many angles to acquiring Japanese citizenship
    I thought the Shibutanis' mother was born in Japan and their father in the USA?
    ETA the following from this October 2011 article: "Chris grew up in Chappaqua, N.Y., and Naomi, born in Japan, grew up in Miami."

    Off-topic: BTW, the Shibutanis tweeted yesterday that they have been invited to the Dinner hosted by the Dept. of State for the Prime Minister of Japan in Washington, D.C. tonight - ETA link to thread started in GSD: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=83510
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2012
  8. analia

    analia Active Member

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    I think the Shibutanis won't change feds before Sochi, but they might in the future if they can't hold onto their US. top 3 status AND that the Reeds retire and the Japanese fed works their magic to convince them.

    Knowing Japan as a country, I have little doubt that Mervin will get his citizenship just in time.

    Btw, just curious, whatever happened to Allison Reed?
     
  9. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Did you even read what I've written?

    Apparently not, so I will write it again:

    Japan does not send low level pair and dance teams to international events.

    How many international competitions were Emi Hirai/Taiyo Mizutani sent to?

    If T/T did not present a sufficiently high standard of skating, they wouldn't be going to any competitions, whether National Champions or not.

    So yes, they did earn their spots through their hard work and not through luck.

    Clean T/T, with the programs they have this season and the quality of their non-jump elements, should have easily beaten all of the teams you have mentioned.

    That aside, yes it's the skaters who don't fall who usually win medals. :p

    Wow! I certainly wasn't expecting this! :eek:

    Looks like JSF's request is being taken very seriously.

    Aren't there two pair and dance teams competing in the team event at Olympics?
     
  10. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    Emi Hirai/Taiyo Mizutani are dancers not pairs, I'm not sure how many time I need to say I'm referring to the fact Japan has no other PAIRS TO SEND.

    T/T is their only option. When you are the only one competing at your nationals, it's easy to win, you will be the obvious choice to be sent to Worlds, when they have no other team to send! But like I said if you have a list low level pairs not dancers in Japan, please post it I would love to see it.


    No, one man, lady, dance team and pair.
     
  11. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    The teams have a choice of:

    • One for each discipline, each doing the SP/SD and the FS/FD.
    • Two of one discipline with one doing the SP/SD and the other doing the FS/FD, and one each for the other three disciplines doing the SP/SD and the FS/FD.
    • Two of two disciplines, with one doing the SP/SD and the other doing the FS/FD, and one each for the other two disciplines doing the SP/SD and the FS/FD.

    It's actually a strategic issue for USFS in whether they will have two dance teams, one doing the SD and the other doing the FD.
     
  12. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    And I'm not sure how many times do I have to repeat that winning Japanese Nationals does not guarantee being sent to Worlds.

    Winning Japanese Nationals does not guarantee being sent to Worlds.
    Winning Japanese Nationals does not guarantee being sent to Worlds.
    Winning Japanese Nationals does not guarantee being sent to Worlds.
    Winning Japanese Nationals does not guarantee being sent to Worlds.
    Winning Japanese Nationals does not guarantee being sent to Worlds.
    Winning Japanese Nationals does not guarantee being sent to Worlds.
    Winning Japanese Nationals does not guarantee being sent to Worlds.

    Did you get it now? :p

    P.S. Hirai/Mizutani *were* dancers, they have split after the 2011-2012 season.
     
  13. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    It does when you are the only pairs team they can send. They send the one pairs team they have or no pairs team at all.

    Japan Figure Skating Championships-Pairs medalists
    2011–2012

    1. Narumi Takahashi / Mervin Tran
    2. No other competitors

    Do you?

    ETA:

     
  14. pingu

    pingu Well-Known Member

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    And you can change either pair or ice dance, and either man or lady. So if the USFSA wants to send D/W and S/S, only one US pair will be able to compete both programs.
     
  15. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    I wonder what is harder for you.

    Is it admitting that you are wrong?

    Or is it drawing a simple logical conclusion?

    Yes T/T are the only Japanese Pairs team at the moment. But were they not up to a required standard, they wouldn't be competing at any international events.

    The concept of "saving face" is very important in collective cultures.

    My point here (which probably got lost in what is now an argument about a technicality) in response to Iceman's comment was that there was no "luck" involved in T/T getting where they did.

    The rules for participation of foreign-born athletes are clear and transparent and they always knew that they can represent Japan, even if he doesn't have Japanese citizenship.

    So they took advantage of those rules (again nothing "lucky" about it, they simply played by the rules).

    I don't think they've ever expected to get as far as they did.

    Now that they did get very far and became one of the best pair teams in the world, of course they want to participate in the most important sporting event there is.

    Whilst initially I thought "Yeah, right as if it will ever happen", the political response so far has been really positive.

    This is just a guess but maybe it's the collective aspect (T/T's participation in the Olympic games can help the Japanese team win a gold medal) that is really helping them and it would be much harder if it was just their potential medal that was at stake?
     
    antmanb and (deleted member) like this.
  16. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    Whew.. finally!

    For the record it was over 10 years ago there were at least two pairs teams who had competed at Japanese Nationals.

    Even if Japan give Tran his citizenship they won't solve their problem of no pairs program in Japan. They wil still have problems in 2018, 2022 and beyond.

    Yes, they can compete in as many ISU competitions as they want, even if he doesn't have Japanese citizenship. But the Japanese Government must approve citizenship if he wants to compete in the Olympics for Japan, 645 days and counting.
     
  17. ponta1

    ponta1 Active Member

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    As Ziggy has mentioned several times, even though Takahashi/Tran are the only pairs team in Japan, and have thus won Japanese Nationals each time, if they were deemed unworthy of representing Japan in international competitions, they would NOT HAVE BEEN SENT, even if they were the Japanese team champions. What is so hard to understand about that?
     
    euler likes this.
  18. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    T/T are very worthy, but Japan would have sent anyone no matter how they looked they wouldn't have had a choice if they only had one team to send except to send no one, and they wouldn't have done that.

    Kawaguchi and Markuntsov in 2001 got 15th place out of 19. K/M were certainly not the best in the world but getting near last is better than sending no one at all. Japan wouldn't have left a team home if fear of getting last. Obviously, they got 15th, 13th and 14th at Worlds before breaking up.

    T/T have done extremely well in the 5 years they been together but the Japanese Federation wouldn't have barred them from going to Worlds regardless of how they looked. If there was such a team, was so bad the federation did bar them from worlds; I haven't heard of them.

    I think that maybe what the ISU is doing with the team event, is making the countries with weak or non-existing disciplines step up and create them. Which is what Japan will have to do with pairs.
     
  19. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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    That is exactly what Ziggy is saying they would do - send no one.
     
  20. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    and they wouldn't have done that...
     
  21. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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    And you don't know that any more than Ziggy does. You might believe it, you might think it but you don't know it unless you're the head of the Japanese Federation - so it's silly to argue about it, isn't it?
     
  22. AJ Skatefan

    AJ Skatefan Well-Known Member

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    There are several examples in the past of countries that qualify to send someone to the Olympics but choose not to do so because they don't have skaters that are up to a certain standard. They send no one instead. One case that comes to my mind is Lucinda Ruh. She said that at one olympics Switzerland had a spot and she was the best skater representing Switzerland at the time but the Swiss Federation chose to send no one instead. So if Japan didn't think their pairs team was at a high enough level, even if they had a spot, they might choose to send no one. This kind of thing happens.
     
  23. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    No we don't, but they didn't send K/M to worlds 3 times so why would they send them? Did they think they would win gold all of sudden or get stuck somewhere between 10-20. Either was a representative for Japan was a representative for Japan. But they would have to send them there first.
     
  24. maatTheViking

    maatTheViking Danish Ice Dance! Go Laurence & Nikolaj!

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    Actually, Denmark used to have much harsher rules thatn ISU on international assignments - you didn't get send unless they expected you to place in top 10. That is why Mikkeline Kierkegaard switched to Germany - she placed 14th at Euros AFAIR, and they didn't send her to worlds and they didn't want to send her to Euros next year.

    Now, however, the requirements have luckily changed.

    It is not unreasonable to think the Japanese Federation have requirements in place that may result in not sending a qualified team - but as milanessa pointed out; it doesn't really matter - clearly T/T get send. We don't know what the internal criteria for sending teams are year to year for the Japanese Federation.
     
  25. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    The substance. :shuffle:
     
  26. danafan

    danafan Canadian ladies über

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Japanese federation did do just that twice. T&T didn't make their senior world debut until 2011, even though they were national champions in 2009 and 2010. So in those years they did choose to send no one....
     
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  27. morqet

    morqet rising like a phoenix

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    Furthermore, this year the Reeds weren't able to compete at Four Continents, but even though there were 3 other dance teams who competed at Japanese Nationals, none of them were sent in their place.
     
  28. AJ Skatefan

    AJ Skatefan Well-Known Member

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    Another good example.
     
  29. sammyf

    sammyf Well-Known Member

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    Another example, in 2010 Japan also didn't fill a host GP ladies spot and gave it away to a European skater instead.
     
  30. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Although I believe that the general point Ziggy and others have been making is true, I'm not sure that any of these other dance couples could have been sent to Four Continents. Did they have the minimum qualifying TES marks in international competition? IINM, these teams haven't competed internationally, at least not within the pertinent time period.