Toughest competition ever- ladies

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by briantoronto, Sep 4, 2013.

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Which lady had it toughest for competition and field

  1. Ito

    20 vote(s)
    22.0%
  2. Kwan

    21 vote(s)
    23.1%
  3. Slutskaya

    21 vote(s)
    23.1%
  4. Kim

    39 vote(s)
    42.9%
  5. Asada

    29 vote(s)
    31.9%
  6. Yamaguchi

    19 vote(s)
    20.9%
  7. Witt

    18 vote(s)
    19.8%
  8. Lynn

    16 vote(s)
    17.6%
  9. Baiul

    6 vote(s)
    6.6%
  10. Kerrigan

    6 vote(s)
    6.6%
  11. Chen

    21 vote(s)
    23.1%
  12. Ando

    12 vote(s)
    13.2%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. briantoronto

    briantoronto Member

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    Which lady has had the toughest and strongest overall competition and field to face throughout their career.
     
  2. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    Witt and Yamaguchi.
    Witt had a deep field to beat in 86-88, many of whom were better skaters than she (although she was the best competitor). Yamaguchi had to face Ito and Harding who were the best technical skaters for women of all time, yet she was able to win over them based on her consistency at the big competitions.
     
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  3. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I wouldnt really say Witt had that tough of competition. I would say she faced a very deep field with many excellent skaters, but it lacked in true greats. Other than Witt herself, and Ito who was not any contender in major events due to figures, there wasnt another skater around then I would classify as an all time great as much as I love Thomas and Kadavy.
     
  4. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    Agreed about Ito but, I would say Thomas and Manley were on par or better than Witt. Certainly they were better technical skaters than Witt.

    Also earlier in her career (pre 1985) she had to face Zayak and Sumners who were also on par with Witt (Again Zayak being a better jumper).
     
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    While on the surface that makes sense, still today none of those are probably even considered a top 25 skater all time (aside from Witt and Ito who are possibly top 5, and Ito wasnt a competitive factor for Witt as said earlier). So I guess it depends how one defines strong competition. For me facing atleast one other all time great is imperative. Yamaguchi faced 2 of the 3 or 4 best jumpers ever in Ito and Harding. Ito faced Witt and Yamaguchi, two all time greats. Kim and Asada faced one another. Kwan faced Slutskaya who is considered an all time great as well. Witt faced a deep field but that didnt include someone today who is remembered as an all time great.
     
  6. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    There's a lot of overlap in years here when you talk about entire careers, and it's kind of anachronistic to compare different eras. If I had the time, I might consider who had to compete at worlds against the greatest number of prior world medalists. I would qualify that the prior world medalist not be someone who had fallen out of top six contention. For example, Meissner in 2008 was too out of contention to be considered additional competition for Mao or Yuna.
     
  7. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    OK I will try this using your criteria. Let me know how you think I do:

    ,
    Kwan- Chen (95, 96, 98 Olympics), Bonaly (95 and 96), Ito (96), Szewcenko (96, 98 Worlds), Lipinski (98 Olympics), Gusmeroli (99, 2000), Butyrskaya (99, 2000, 2001, 2002 Olympics), Slutskaya (97, 98 (2), 2000, 2001, 2002 (2), 2005), Hughes (2002 Olympics), Suguri (2003, 2004, 2005), Arakawa (2005), Cohen (2005 Worlds). 29 total out of 13 World/Olympics. Average of 2.2 per event.

    Kim- Asada (2008, 2009, 2010 (2), 2011, 2013), Ando (2008, 2009, 2010 (2), 2011), Kostner (2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 Worlds, 2011, 2013), Rochette (2010 Olympics), Meissner (2007), Suzuki (2013). 20 total out of 7 World/Olympics. Average of 2.9 per event.

    Asada- Kim (2008, 2009, 2010 (2), 2011, 2013), Ando (2009, 2010 (2), 2011), Kostner (2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 Olympics, 2011, 2012, 2013), Rochette (2010 Olympics), Meissner (2007), Suzuki (2013). 20 out of 8 Worlds/Olympics. Average of 2.5 per event

    Witt- Sumners (1984 Olympics), Zayak (1982, 1983, 1984 (2) ), Leistner (1985, 1986, 1987, 1988 (2) ), Vodorezova (1984 Olympics), Ivanova (1984 Worlds, 1985, 1986, 1987), Kadavy (1988 (2) ), Manley (1988 Worlds), Kristofics Binder (1982), Chin (1986). 20 out of 9 Worlds/Olympics. Average of 2.2 per event

    Yamaguchi- Ito (1990, 1991, 1992 Olympics), Kerrigan (1992 (2) ), Harding (1992 (2) ), Trenary (1990), Leistner (1989). 9 out of 5 Worlds/Olympics. Average of 1.8 per event, or 2 if we exclude the 89 Worlds.

    Ito- Witt (1987, 1988 (2) ), Thomas (1987, 1988 (2) ), Kadavy (1988 (2) ), Ivanova (1987), Yamaguchi (1992 Olympics), Harding (1992 Olympics), Kerrigan (1992 Olympics), Leistner (1987, 1988 (2), 1989), Trenary (1990), Manley (1988 Worlds), 18 in 7 World/Olympic events. Average of 2.6 per event.

    Slutskaya- Kwan (96, 97, 98 (2), 2000, 2001, 2002 (2), 2005), Arakawa (2005 Worlds, 2006 Olympics), Suguri (2005, 2006 Olympics), Chen (96, 98 Olympics), Lipinski (98 Olympics), Butyrskaya (2000, 2001, 2002 Olympics), Cohen (2005, 2006 Olympics), Ito (1996 Worlds), Szewcenko (96, 98 Worlds), Bonaly (96), Hughes (2002 Olympics), Gusmeroli (2000). 27 in 10 World/Olympic events. Average of 2.7 per event.

    Chen- Yamaguchi (92 (2) ), Kerrigan (92 (2), 93, 94 Olympics), Bonaly (94 Olympics, 95 Worlds, 96 Worlds), Kwan (98 Olympics), Slutskaya (98 Olympics), Ito (92 Olympics, 96 Worlds), Baiul (94 Olympics), Szewcenko (96 Worlds), Gusmeroli (98 Olympics). 16 in 7 World/Olympic events. Average of 2.3 per event.


    I didnt count years like the 1980 or 1981 Worlds for Witt, 1984 and 1986 Worlds for Ito, or the 1994 Worlds for Kwan as they themselves were not even top 6 contenders yet. I did count for Slutskaya for the 95 and 2004 Worlds as she was not a top 6 contender those years. I did not count the 91 or 97 Worlds for Chen for the same reason.

    I also discounted skaters who were out of top 6 contention IMO by that point, while counting those who I believe were. For instance I counted Ito (7th 96 Worlds), Suzuki (11th 2013 Worlds), Szewcenko (10th 98 Worlds), Arakawa (9th at 2005 Worlds), Kostner (11th at 2003 Worlds), Ando (WD during LP, 2008 Worlds), Zayak (WD after figures, 83 Worlds) as there are valid reasons to consider them top 6 contenders those years, mostly based on other performances and results they had done that season internationally. I did not count Bobek (97 Worlds, 98 Olympics), Leistner (84 Olympics), Leonova (2013 Worlds), Kostner (2010 Olympics), Gusmeroli (2001 and beyond), Sokolova (any year as she was never a top 6 contender again after her World silver), Soldatova (same as Sokolova), Szewcenko (95 Worlds) as there arent any even semi valid reasons based on either their horrific showings at those events or/and lack of anything they had done recently to consider them top 6 contenders those years or at those events.

    It does show one flaw of using that method however. For instance Leistner at the 89 Worlds is counted as competition for someone since she was both a strong contender there and a "former" World medalist, while Ito who isnt a former World medalist is not. Yet who was tougher competition to face at the 89 World, Leistner or Ito, LOL! Same thing, Manley is not credited for having to face at the 88 Olympics since she isnt a "former" World medalist yet, while someone like Leistner would be. You werent facing a "former" World medalist with Arakawa at the 2004 Worlds. You werent facing a "former" World medalist with Lipinski at the 97 Worlds. And so on.


    Interesting to see Kristi comes last using this criteria however.
     
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  8. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    Ito did have to face some of the toughest competition as you mentioned, and she also had to straddle the two eras of figures and post figures.

    Chen also had to face tough competition even if it doesn't show in that chart you did. By the time Chen was at her peak in the 95-96 season she had to face a just starting to peak Kwan, Slutskaya and a comback by Chouinard.
     
  9. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Chen always had it fairly tough, especialy coming from her vantage point of mostly being pigeoned as a bronze contender without strong federation or judges support like her competitors. As a youngster coming up she had to try to break into the medals against Yamaguchi, Ito, Kerrigan, Bonaly, Harding, all older and more established stars. Then she faced Baiul, Kerrigan, Bonaly, Sato, all at their best, and all arguably more favored by judges than she was. Then she faced Bobek, Kwan, Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, and continued facing Bonaly, and at the end of her career faced all those plus Lipinski as well. Any medal of any color she ever won was hard fought and earned, and skated very well for.
     
  10. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    I voted for Kwan, since it seems like once she got one competitor out of the way and it looked like she'd win another Olympics, someone else would come along who could beat her. Granted, her main rivals were Chen, Lipinski, and Slutskaya, and only one of those managed to actually win an Olympics.
     
  11. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Ladies 1998 Olympics was a very tough competition. A lot of clean, or almost clean performances. A fantastic top 2.
     
  12. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    How anyone could say Kim, when everyone always says she is unbeatable, is beyond me.
     
  13. Laney

    Laney Member

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    :rofl: Didn't you know that Yuna has to win every poll? She's the new Kween. The question doesn't matter as long as she wins the polls and competitions :D
     
  14. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    I voted for Kwan.
     
  15. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    My thoughts exactly. These days Yu na wins every poll, no matter what the poll is about (unless it's a negative poll).
     
  16. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

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    How is it possible for Kim or Asada to have had tougher competition than Ando, yet Ando is at the bottom of this poll and Kim at the top. Ando faced all the same field as Kim or Asada except Ando faced Kim and Asada, while Kim and Asada faced the other plus Ando. Kim and Asada cant face herself, they face Ando instead, while Ando faces both Asada and Kim. So there is no way Kim or Asada had tougher competition than Ando. To pick Kim and Asada over Ando as having tougher competition is to say Ando is a better skater than Asada and Kim basically.
     
  17. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    Yes the results make no sense. If Kim is the best skater of this era, how do people who are not as good as her have less tough competition even though they are competing against her? LOL.
     
  18. Robeye

    Robeye Curiously curious

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    For many reasons, including the ones you mention, this is a poorly constructed poll, as it is difficult to make clear differentiations. This is reflected in the remarkably even distribution of the votes.
     
  19. t.mann

    t.mann New Member

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    Kostner.

    her competitors : Kwan, Slutskaya, Cohen, Arakawa, Kim, Asada, Rochette, Ando etc.
    Kostner's WC results : 10th(03') - 5th(04') - 3rd(05') - 12th(06') - 6th(07') - 2nd(08') - 12th(09') - 6th(10') - 3rd(11') - 1st(12') - 2nd(13')
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2013
  20. pat decaro

    pat decaro New Member

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    That makes sense.
     
  21. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

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    I am amazed Kwan is credited as having Chen as competition by people when Chen was only her rival for one event- 1996 Worlds. Chen choked and skated awful at every other event that season, and before that season Kwan was not even a top skater. After 1996 Worlds Chen was never again a top skater even though she fluked into a bronze at the 98 Olympics after 5 or 6 people choked.

    Lipinski was a rival but only around for 12 months.

    That leaves Slutskaya as Kwan's only real competition, and their rivalry was really only about 2 years, 2000 Grand Prix final until 2002 Worlds.
     
  22. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

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    People like Kim, Kwan, Witt, should all be automatically eliminated as having the toughest competition. For each they faced all the same people as the others of their era, minus they didnt face themselves, and the others had to face them. Thus it is impossible for them to have had the toughest competition. The others of their own era by default already had tougher competition, even if their era was the toughest ever it still wouldnt make them having the toughest competition over others of their own time.

    Kwan having more votes than Slutskaya and Kim having way more votes than Ando on a poll like this escapes any possible logic to the topic except people are just voting for who they think is the best or like most as a skater and not even thinking of the question in any logical sense.
     
  23. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    Butyrskaya had the toughest ever competition. She had Baiul, Bonaly, Markova, Slutskaya blocking her way to European podiums or World appearances early. Then Chen, Kwan, Lipinski, Slutskaya blocking her path to World and Olympic podiums. Later on it was Kwan, Hughes, Slutskaya, Cohen, she had to all face. She had to skate squeaky perfect and others to make mistakes even to hope for a bronze medal, and even that was often not enough for her to get that.
     
  24. Ares

    Ares Guest

    Sasha Cohen had it pretty tough. She had to deal with Kwan most of her career. Also, at every World Championship she competed, except maybe 2002, the winner had a skate of her career. Even if Sasha had skated clean, a win wouldn't have been guaranteed. 2006 was really her only clear shot at gold.
     
  25. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Sasha would be a really good choice too I agree. She had to come up competing against Kwan and Hughes in the U.S, and Kwan stuck around her whole career and continued to always be in godmode at Nationals, even if her international performances declined. She also had to face Slutskaya and Arakawa at their peaks, and every big event from 2002-2006 had the winner hitting it out of the park and setting a very tough standard to beat, even Meissner in 2006 hit it out of the park for herself (although in her case still was probably beatable by someone great).

    I also find the huge number of votes for people like Kim, Kwan, and Witt funny. When you are the best you are competing against people weaker than you, less favored by the judges reputation wise than you, and general have the easiest path to win. The people who had the toughest competition are always going to be the challengers, not the stars. Then again the OP put mostly stars and dominant skaters in the poll with only a few exceptions, which shows how poorly layed out this topic was to begin with.
     
  26. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

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    I'm not sure what the purpose of the poll is (other than that it's already been done). It seems implied that weaker skaters have the toughest competition because more of the field can be considered competitive with them.
     
  27. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I dont think that is what is being implied. If it were Ando, Kerrigan and Baiul wouldnt be a dead last by a huge margin on the poll, LOL! Not that Kerrigan or Baiul would be a good choice anyway however (well Kerrigan not as bad since she had to compete vs Ito, Yamaguchi, and Harding at her best and still consistently won medals, before the weak 93-94 years).
     
  28. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

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    Skaters like Cohen, Butyrskaya, and Kostner, who are not considered all-time greats of their time, are getting mentioned as good examples of skaters with strong competition. Not consistent with the poll, but they're getting brought up.

    It's confusing and redundant to put rivals in the same poll (i.e. Ito/Yamaguchi and Kwan/Slutskaya), which is why there are these divergent opinions.
     
  29. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Well Ito and Yamaguchi did have quite different competition overall in that Ito faced the 86-88 generation of skaters in addition to the 89-92 one while Yamaguchi only faced the 89-92 generation of skaters.
     
  30. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    Chen and Kwan faced each other 3 times in major competition that season- Skate America, GPF and worlds. In 2 of those competitions Chen was actually leading over Kwan in the SP, and we all know how close worlds was that year.

    Lipinski wasn't around that long, but it was still a very close competition between the 2 of them when they competed against each other. I agree Slutskaya/Kwan rivarly was only great from about 00-02, and it wasn't as an interesting imo as the other 2. Slutskaya was given huge gifts artistically,and the judges almost wanted to hand over titles to her, when she didn't deserve it ( see 00 and 01 worlds). Chen and Lipinski actually had to skate well to have any chance of beating Kwan.