Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Andofanatic, Apr 30, 2013.
Yu Na Kim
That's fine, I'm sure many agree with you but for me a 3axel is not enough to make up for her lack of a good/correct/consistent salchow, lutz and toe. 3 out of the 6 triples lacking!
I will not name my top 20, I don't need to justify my post (I did explain my post) but I would put anyone with 5 consistent/correct triples in front of her. That list alone would knock Asada off. I would probably not put anyone with 4 triples ahead of Mao, I give her 3axel enough credit to rank ahead of those.
I think it remains to be seen how she develops as her career unfolds, but I think Gracie Gold is one of the most talented jumpers in a long time (maybe my opinion is a bit skewed because lipping doesn't bother me nearly as much as flutzing).
Joannie also had a 3toe 3toe combination for a while (watch her 2005 lp). And her lutz was solid. She reworked it early enough in her career that her entry was pretty great.
why shouldn't Kostner be on the list? She had all 5 triples this year, at worlds the 3L was in the SP, she singled it in the FS, but she did all 5 tripples regularli for 7 years, more than Rochette (only the last 2 years of her carrier), took them away due to injury and took them back now.
Fair enough but then one would think you would be objecting to most people putting Kim at #1 or #2 (or #3) than Mao being top 10 on some peoples lists, since Kim has only 4 triples, and by your bolded comment wouldnt that put her right out of top 20 on your jump list too?
Rochette: 43.1 from the LP
Asada: 41.88 from the LP
I think the quality of Rochette's jumps are quite strong and her technique was pristine. She didn't have the biggest jumps nor the most consistency, but she rarely underrotated and had correct edges.
Except I never said a word about Kim. I just pointed out Asada because it really has been something that has always bothered me (people considering her one of the great jumpers) but I've never had a chance to bring it up. Kim has done all 5 triples, though, so she is in that gray area for me. Her 3loop was never consistent but when it was done it was correct and then she took it out completely. I would probably put Kim ahead of Asada based on her clean jumps (sometimes she has edge calls on the flips, yes) and how amazingly huge and fully rotated they are. She has also done 2 different and difficult 3/3 combinations very cleanly and consistently.
Most edge calls on Kim's 3F are bogus and cannot be taken seriously. She has the most ideal takeoff on her 3F.
Yes, Yuna's weakness point is 3loop.
07-08 coc 3Lo +GOE 0.8 / 07-08 cor 3Lo +GOE 0.6 / 07-08 GPF 3Lo fall / 08-09 SA 3Lo → 1Lo / 08-09 4cc 3Lo<
3Lo's rate of success is 40%.
But If you look at Mao's 3A rate of success, it is 30.9%(17/55) - If you want statistics, I can explain.
It's lower than kim's 3Lo. At the same standard, 3A is Mao's weakness point?
What do you mean? Rochette was always attempting each of the 5 different triples. She had a horrible flutz in her first full senior season and then came back with a corrected one in 2004, but she's always attempted the five excluding Axel. She's put together many 6-triple programs internationally in her career, too.
but judges think there is a problem with her edge. Randomly judges can give her wrong edge at any time.
We can not say her 3F is the most ideal.
I would not say Kim's flip is "ideal" but I would say that she is a victim of her reputation. In other words, the callers are going to look at her flip closely whether they see anything in real time or not because she has a history of getting an edge call. The same way I think some skaters get more closely inspected for URs because of their past, such as Nagasu for example. Someone like Kostner can UR a jump that is obvious in real time but doesn't get a < or << and it is probably because the callers didn't even ask to review it because, for her, UR is not an issue on a normal day. For Nagasu, she lands smooth looking jumps but every one of them seems to be scrutinized no matter what.
A better explanation is the tech callers don't even know what's good or bad. Those calls she got in the 2008-2009 season were equally as a joke as the call in her 2013 Worlds SP.
And it is ideal whether you like it or not. When you learn to jump a single flip you're told to do exactly what she does on her triple flip. Literally textbook.
Asada herself has recognized her weakness of her jumping. She started reworking her jumps after winning a gold medal at Worlds in 2010. I'm not sure that her jumps now are any better than they were then. Indeed, I would not be surprised if she landed fully rotated triple axels in competitions less regularly over the past season or two than she did before she started reworking her jumps. If that is in fact the case, I leave it to others to determine if it because her jumps have deteriorated or because technical panels are being less indulgent.
If we go by the height of the jumps,
Well for one, it's my opinion.
And two, I never knocked any other skaters like you did.
I did point out that Michelle and Angela had periods of flutzing.
I think Midori is the greatest ladies jumper of all time, I was talking quality and correct technique. Midori had a pretty severe leg wrap (not a penalty, but not aesthetically pleasing). Yu-Na's technique is excellent, but it's been what, four years since she did a 3Lo?
Yes, Angela took out the 3S from her program after she dislocated her shoulder on it, and Michelle took out the 3Lo in her final competitive season, but they generally tried all five regularly attempted triples.
Did you ever see Angela skate live? Her jumps were not as huge as say, Victoria Volchkova's, but they were pretty much textbook. The 3Lz in particular had good distance (when she didn't flutz). Her problems were more mental than to do with technique.
In my opinion, Kim is not intended to powerful and jumper like athlete. but I think beauty of jump, posture, and effortless is also in criteria..
I reminds Dick Button's commentary in 2009 worlds. he said - Kim Yuna is one of the few skaters who can answer about what is the jump. jump is not just a little pop with a lot of revolution. It's almost flying. And she does.
She is not the most powerful jumper. but I think she is the one of the skaters who can jump most beautifully.
My list is based not only on difficulty, but also consistency and GOE
They may be in a weird order but im pretty sure these are the top
Other skaters like yamaguchi, kostner, bonaly, rochette, volchkova, kwan are close but all lack in some area of consistency, difficulty or GOE
Rochette had very pretty jumps, maybe not the highest but the speed going in and out was impressive. Particularly her salchow and loop were gorgeous
Kim's are out of this world, but everyone has already mentioned her
Noone has mentioned Shizuka. i think she's been the strongest jumper in Japan since Midori. Well, a case can be made for a young Mao whose jumping seemed light and effortless but the technique was very unconventional and seems to have caught up with her, as she grew.
I liked Chen's jumps too. By 95-96 season were the prettiest imho, the good height and distance and the delay in rotation was spectacular. I recognize the degradation of her jumps by the 98 season
Shizuka's technique is not very conventional as well
But she has very strong jumps, and her Lutz and Toe were among the best.
1. Mao Asada ( for the phenomenal jump content/difficulty she has showcased through her career) that includes Two 3-3 combinations AND a 3A in one program, three 3A's in one competition, the first female to land a 3A in junior competitions, for having showcased seven tripple programs, the skater who has gotten the most 3A's ratified, for having showcased all kind of triples in her career..... and of course for having the most effortless jumps ever.... she has skated to the Technically most difficult jumps layouts and has many history several times!
2. Midori Ito for her huge jumps, especially the 3A and 3-3
3. Miki Ando another accomplished jumper, for being the first female to have landed a quad and for the many 3-3 she has showcased
4. Irina slutskaya
5. Shizuka Arakawa
^LOL. Damn, I love ubers.
Bonaly didnt have big or quality jumps in anyway IMO. The only thing she had was ability to somehow pull off alot of hard jumps consistency with the worst technique.
Why isn't it conventional? well, I am no tecnik expert, but she doesn't switch edges like Mao, or prerrotates heavily or has a leg wrap or a mule kick...her flip took off from an obvious outside edge, but apart from that she had very strong jumping technique from my amateur opinion.
As you mentioned it, she lips.
But other than that, her Salchow is prerorated and 2-footed on the take-off (I know many people think it's a good technique, but it's not the conventional technique).
And she has a very very round technique (ala Silvia Fontana). Low on her knees, that's why her jumps were often under-rotated.
JMHO, I don't like Shizuka's jumps, although I love her skating
I thought Salcow and Loop jumps were impossible not to pre-rotate.
Yes, but the technique with two feet is even worse. You see the kind of Salchow's technique by Frederic Dambier, Florent Amodio... with a free opened foot