Thoughts no US getting only one judge at Worlds

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by manleywoman, Oct 24, 2011.

  1. manleywoman

    manleywoman podcast mistress

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  2. flowerpower

    flowerpower Well-Known Member

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    Canada had no judges at all at Worlds 2010.

    It happens. At least you got one.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2011
  3. DaveRocks

    DaveRocks Well-Known Member

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    My thoughts? The US isn't the centre of the universe. (And I live there.)
     
  4. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I still am baffled as to why the judges represent countries, and not the ISU (doesn't the technical controller represent the ISU?)

    I guess I don't understand the system at all- how come some countries have no judges, some have 1, other have 4? Why is it not just all countries have 1 or 2? Why is it so uneven.

    I don't care so much that the US has 1 judge, but that it seems completely wacky for any country. (How did Canada have no judges in 2010? And presumably others had 3 or 4?)
     
  5. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    Is this Jimmie Santee in the photograh the ex-skater and brother of David? Yikes. Gosh, It sucks getting old, LOL.

    I don't think it matter overall anymore that the U.S. only has one judge or even no judge at Worlds.
     
  6. emason

    emason Well-Known Member

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    This. We really need to learn to share the wealth. I also don't care how many spots we have for skaters; other countries are deserving of spots also.
     
  7. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    The only reason I care about spots is it makes me sad when good skaters have to stay home. I realize World's is about representing all the federations, but I feel like it should be a chance for all the best skaters in the world to compete against each other. A third American lady is going to do a lot better than some of the low ranking skaters, but she won't get to go. I feel the same way when the US has 5 amazing ladies, and only 3 get to go. Or Japan. Or any other powerhouse.

    There is no competition where the ALL of the top skaters compete against each other.
     
  8. toddlj

    toddlj Livestreams at 1am on Thanksgiving weekend? OK!

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    The fact that this is even a discussion implies that we assume judges will have a national bias. I would hope if the US skaters do their best, it won't matter what country the judges are from.
     
  9. Morry Stillwell

    Morry Stillwell Well-Known Member

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  10. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for clarifying. The judges at SA were introduced as representing their country. Only the controllers was announced as representing the ISU. I figured this was the same.
     
  11. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    There are lots of ISU countries. USA can't expect to have judges in all disciplines at all years.
     
  12. skatemommy

    skatemommy Well-Known Member

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    The fact that some countries have 4 judges and the US only 1 does seem old school ISU politics. I don't believe IJS has solved national bias and deal making. It has been going on far too long.
     
  13. peibeck

    peibeck Letting Poje be on top

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    I think there was only one US judge the year Worlds were in LA also. As others have said, it does happen.

    I think Japan only got one judge selected for the Vancouver Olympics, if I remember correctly.

    But with the new scoring system there is no gaurantee that even if a judge is on the panel this her/his marks will count anyway.
     
  14. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    How are judges selected normally?

    I just want the best judges for the job, if they best doesn't come from the USA; fine by me.
     
  15. Morry Stillwell

    Morry Stillwell Well-Known Member

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    At Skate America the Judges were International Judges, not Championship judges, and are contoled by their county Federation. When a judge is promoted to Championship Judge, that person is no longer subject to Federation control, other than they must remain eligible under Federation and ISU Rules.
     
  16. joesk8judg

    joesk8judg New Member

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    morry: there were ISU Championship judges on the panel at SA. You can have either international or ISU CHAMPIONSHIP judges. Grand prix final and all championship events must have ISU Championship judges. DO federations ask judges to show their personal protocol to the powers that be? Even if random for each skater on the protocol, they could ask to see the personal papers of the judge, thus still intimadating the judge. However, in this system I do believe it is MUCH harder to "cheat", as there are so many marks given, and if really over or under marking to the corriodor set by the judges of the panel, then there could be issues and assessments as a result. The corridor is formed by ALL THE JUDGES on the panel for the puposes of establishing the corridor for which a judge is held to standard, the OAC counts 1 1/2 times for the corridor, the referee 2 times for championship events; other events, the referee 2 times, and since no OAC is on site and the viewing is done off site, there is no adding of the OAC to the corridor for other events. JUDGES set the corridor by adding the marks together for example interpretation, then divided by the number of judges on the panel, adding the referee's marks for 2 times, the OAC for 1 1/2 times, and the result is the allowed corridor for the judge for assessments purposes of which the judge must fall inbetween those numbers. In all other events other than Championship events such as the Grand Prixs of jrs. and srs, the evaluating is done by OAC members at home via the dvd of the events, and on those the referee counts 2 times, but no OAC is counting, they just evaluate. SO truly the judges DO SET the corridor.
     
  17. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    LOL, I totally agree! :bow: Though judging by much of what gets posted on these online skating forums, you'd think it was. :rolleyes::blah:
     
  18. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Exactly.

    I've read comments from a few other people suggesting it was all some great injustice; one wonders if they understand how a random draw works? Unless you want to move to a different method of selecting judges, which would likely be much more political, accept that sometimes the draw means a country gets four judges and sometimes it doesn't get any. And every other option in between.

    I am sure D/W will do just fine even without an American judge.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2011
  19. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    IIRC, it used to be that the judging panels at Worlds and Europeans (and probably the Olympics) were drawn from the federations with the ten highest finishes in the previous year's competition, with one federation randomly selected not to be included on the panel.

    That system was indeed highly political. It's a good thing the ISU replaced it with a system that allows for the random selection of the entire panel and also enables European judges to participate at Four Continents and non-Europeans to judge Europeans.
     
  20. Celine82

    Celine82 Well-Known Member

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    That would certainly be a bigger problem than the US only having one judge!
     
  21. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    So for all the talk on this forum about objections to judges having a bias to their countries of origin, some people still want it to happen because they feel that their skaters will get an advantage. And by implication they want to encourage political judging.
     
    Domshabfan and (deleted member) like this.
  22. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    :respec::respec::respec:
     
  23. ribenka

    ribenka New Member

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    :rofl::rofl::rofl:
     
  24. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    Just out of curiosity, do some countries HAVE more international judges than others? I know the judges are volunteers, but doesn't the training system for judges vary from country to country? Do some countries subsidize training for judges and others not offer any financial support?
     
  25. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Yes.

    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,4844-130127-131435-nav-list,00.html

    ISU Communication 1692 lists all the ISU and international judges and referees qualified for the 2011-12 season, for the federations to verify. Communication 1699 contains corrections (additions and deletions) based on the federations' verification.

    Not surprisingly, the federations with the most international officials are the Grand Prix countries, and Germany.

    As I understand it (Rule 582.4), the federations tell the ISU which events they want to submit one judge for and then for each event there is a draw for which countries get one judge. But they don't submit the specific judges by name for the draw.

    So ultimately it doesn't matter how many total judges the country has -- they can submit one for each discipline at a championship and have the possibility of getting assigned to all four disciplines as long as they have one qualified dance judge and two qualified singles/pairs judges (because individual judges aren't supposed to judge more than two events at the same competition).
     
  26. Morry Stillwell

    Morry Stillwell Well-Known Member

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    Joe has it right and I blew it. At Grand Prix event a judge's country is announced even if they are a Championship Judge.
     
  27. 5Ali3

    5Ali3 Active Member

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    There's more than one way for an international judge to influence the results of an international competition and most of those ways don't involve cheating or political judging.

    Martian Judge on Ladies' panel: Oh hello, Mercurian Judge! [I'll skip the pat pat kiss kiss part.] Saw your girl on practice today.

    Mercurian Judge on Pairs' panel: Yes, MercurianLady1 has improved a great deal this year. She's added triiiple Luuutz and is pushing the younger girls. Much improvement, much improvement. Watch her footwork: so much speed with clean edges! I saw the pair today, how do you say, MartianPair1 and MartianPair1?

    Martian Ladies' Judge: Oh yes, aren't they wonderful! You know what impresses me the most? How they interpret that long program, with so much emotion. They truly skate as one and use the transitions beautifully to tell the story. At Nationals, they just took my breath away! An they're so fast with such lovely flow. Take a look at MartianPair1's extension in the lifts - such beautiful positions, I don't know how she does that! Of course, MartianPair2 and MartianPair2 are no slouch in the lift department. All level 4s and nicely executed, too! Still a little rough around the edges, but watch the height on the triple twist. They could be something.

    Mercurian Pair Judge: I will certainly look for them in practice; you know me, I luuuuve high triple twists! Oh dear, your glass is empty. Please, let me.

    Has anyone fudged marks based on nationality? No. Has anyone tried to promote the skater from their own country in the event that they're judging? No. Has anyone managed the impression of their country's skaters to someone judging the event by pointing out the strengths of their country's skaters? :cool: That's not political judging, per se, but I would call it politics - and it happens not just in international figure skating, but in business, government politics, etc. There's a difference between introducing people to what you want them to notice and outright political judging.

    The more bodies on the ground to hear what's being said and say what wants to be said, the better. That includes association staff, Team Leaders, judges, tech panel officials, athletes (unless they're Juniors: one year, the Team Leader for JGF nearly passed out when she discovered that she had something like 23 athletes, all under the age of 18), etc.

    I'm not trying to defend this practice necessarily; I'm trying to point out that there are plenty of ways to influence the marks given to a skater without manipulating the marks that one gives or making deals that involve manipulation of marks.
     
    IceAlisa, Diane Mars, cholla and 3 others like this.
  28. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    :rofl:

    Is this the part where the Judge says that skater is on a totally different planet?