The value of a European versus Four Continents title/medal

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by essence_of_soy, Feb 16, 2013.

  1. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    This is unlikely to happen, at least in the US, for reasons that have nothing to do with how USFS perceives the value of Four Continents.

    US Nationals is the culmination of a three-part qualifying process for singles skaters (two parts for pairs and dance) through regionals in October and sectionals in November. It would be disruptive to the schedules of a majority of competitors to move regionals any earlier.

    Holidays in December would make scheduling Nationals during that month tricky.

    They have to consider the availability of appropriate arenas and the way the television network they have a contract with (currently NBC) wants to cover Nationals.

    If the TV network were enthusiastic enough about December broadcasts to offer a lot more money, that would be a more likely impetus to change the scheduling. But the other issues that would be effected by the change would still need to be addressed.
     
  2. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    She did, in 2009. In addition to Shabalin, there's also Plushenko this year. I'm not sure Joubert should have rushed his comeback from a foot injury in 2009-10, for that matter.

    It is possible to get medical byes, and I believe for Japanese skaters GP results are also taken into account. I don't think the fields in Japan, the US and Canada are always deep across the board as you suggest. I'm thinking of this season's US pairs field, the Japanese pairs and dance fields in general, Canadian ladies, etc.

    As for Nationals in Europe, it's true that only Russia has a lot of depth, but there have been times when Nationals in other countries did have a major effect on the teams for major events - the French men in Olympic seasons and the Italian ladies in the 2006 season come to mind. I can't think of any European countries that invite people from other countries to Nationals to make them more competitive. The Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland due hold Nationals together because they don't have deep fields and this saves money, and France occasionally has invited skaters (who don't appear in the official results). That's the closest I can think of.

    It has the top two teams in the world. Beyond that, the field is comparable to Euros, only smaller - except in Olympic seasons, when the two events are hardly equal. The only discipline in which 4CC is consistently stronger is ladies, though I think the Euros fields may finally be improving in terms of depth and not just at the very top.
     
  3. IceIceBaby

    IceIceBaby New Member

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    I think one problem with 4cc is that those continents participating have nothing in common. In Europe, at least the skaters come from the same continent and the atmosphere in those competitions are often very cozy and warm. Many European TV channels show broadcast it and there is no time zone problems for example. The competition has a long history and that has also made it a very prestigious.
     
  4. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    But coming from the same continent is only as relevant as saying we're all from the same planet....the difference in culture, language between the nations that compete at Europeans couldn't be more different - in that respect it's exactly the same as 4CCs.

    The time difference between the UK and Moscow e.g. is 4 hours, so "prime time" is not prime time all across Europe. I'm not really sure that this is particularly relevant in terms of prestige of a competition :confused:
     
  5. IceIceBaby

    IceIceBaby New Member

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    No, time difference is not relevant for prestige but it is one of the reason's why Europeans are so popular, because it is possible to watch them live from all of the participating countries. If Europeans were held every year for example in Australia, I think over the time their popularity would decrease. And popularity increases prestige. I hope you understand my point. :biggrinbo
     
  6. morqet

    morqet Active Member

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    It isn't. Viewers in a lot of countries are at the mercy of Eurosport & their scheduling around the Australian Open, so Euros is reduced to highlight packages, live for just the last group in the free skate, and maybe coverage of the gala. I actually was able to watch more of 4 Continents on tv than I would have been able to watch of Euros if I hadn't actually gone to the event.
     
  7. allezfred

    allezfred Prick Admin Staff Member

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    Did you watch the 4CC dance event at all? :lol:

    There was a huge gap between the Top 5 teams and the rest in terms of strength.
     
  8. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Dance is one of the events where the bottom competitors are sometimes very popular with the audience, but there is no danger of that at Four Continents. ;)
     
  9. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    Re inviting skaters, I remember Borodulin had once skated at Estonian Nationals and I was wondering what he was doing there.
     
  10. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Off topic, but I believe that some countries have invited a foreign "guest" to compete at their nationals. Are there any European countries that do this?

    Only example I know offhand is Australia: they had Ukranian Iryna Movchan compete in ladies at their 2011-2012 Nationals.
     
  11. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    German skaters competed at French Nationals back around 2004 (IIRC)
     
  12. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    There was an American man there this year (Alexander Zahradnicek), no idea why - he wasn't all that competitive, and they do have their obvious top skaters right now.
     
  13. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    She competed at the 2011 Nationals.

    International skaters can always compete at Australian Nationals and there is always a large contingent from New Zealand. They just cannot take the title and it has to go to the best placed Australian skater.
     
  14. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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    I vaguely remember a British skater competing in the men's event at Hungarian nationals - David Richardson, maybe?
     
  15. Sylvia

    Sylvia Bring on the JGP & Sr B comps!

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    I heard Zahradnicek was released by USFS to skate in/for France. I believe one of his coaches is former French competitor Vincent Restencourt, but I don't know if that is a (primary) reason for his switch.

    Shantel Jordan/Jeremy Barrett (they won their U.S. junior pair title in 2004) were invited to and won French Nationals in the 2004-05 season. She was too young to compete internationally as a junior and reportedly this was arranged as a way for the pair to gain experience competing abroad.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2013
  16. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    He'll have to skate much better than he did at Nationals if he wants to get any international assignments.

    I don't think they won French Nats in the sense that they were considered the French Champions - more like what Aussie Willy described re Australian Nationals.
     
  17. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Sorry to get us off topic, but I find this very interesting by itself, and I think it ties into how nationals can vary greatly between different countries.

    It's great that some nationals open themselves up to willing participants from abroad because I'm sure it's a good opportunity to practice in front of professional judges and an audience.
     
  18. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Judges are not professionals ;)
     
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  19. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Please tell me where I can get paid to do judging. Usually costs me a lot more money than anything I get back to cover costs.
     
  20. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    But why is Ashley not going this year?
     
  21. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    It's not as prestigious yet as a US title. It may never be as prestigious, but if we have 5-10 more years where US ladies are clearly behind Asian ones, 4CC could become for USA ladies like it already is for CAN's ladies.
     
  22. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    Because she needed the time to regroup more, IMO. It's not always about prestige. People skip prestigious events all the time when it suits them.

    Though I thought TheIronLady was going to say it was because the UBZ dance team sucked. ;)
     
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  23. AJ Skatefan

    AJ Skatefan Well-Known Member

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    Because she had been injured and sick before Nationals and Nationals wore her out.
     
  24. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    ^^ and 4CCs was immediately after Nationals.
     
  25. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Competing at US Nationals is not (just) a matter of prestige - it's fighting for assignments for the rest of the season and for next season (and funding) as well.

    Except for the Olympic season (understandably), the top US ladies from US Nationals have gone to 4CCs since 2009 - so it's safe to say they generally send top ladies to 4CCs in recent years. And Wagner has had such a solid fall season that my bet is if she wasn't injured / so worn out from 2 bad free skates in a roll, and 4CCs was so immediately after 4CCs and in Japan, she would probably go to defend her title too.
     
  26. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    That's a lot of ifs you mention, but your first point is probably truer than anything any of us could say. Prestige is just icing. Nationals will have priority because assignments and funding are contingent on nationals. You dare not be the defending champion and show up at nationals and finish fourth or seventh!

    In gymnastics, they used to have trouble staging a world championships in the year following the summer Olympics (e.g. 2001, 2005). One problem was the timing was inevitably close to the quadrennial National Games of the People's Republic of China. These national games have a role in determining Chinese government funding for the years to come, an important thing in a centralized sports system. Consequently, the Chinese federation chose not to send a-team gymnasts to the 2001 world championships. Due to this and other post-Olympic year organizational issues, the international gymnastics federation stopped holding a team competition in the first year of an Olympic quadrennium.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2013