The triple toe-triple toe combination in ladies figure skating

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by krenseby, Nov 30, 2011.

  1. krenseby

    krenseby New Member

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    I was wondering recently why more ladies don' t go for a triple toe-triple toe combination. A lot of professional skaters who haven't been skating competitively for years are comfortable with executing triple toes and it would seem to me that a competitive skater would be able to carry two of them off in combination. Am I underestimating the difficulty of this combination? Or is it perhaps the case that the points earned for it don't justify attempting it over your regular triple-double combination?
     
  2. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    Considering that you get .7 less for doing the Triple Lutz - Double Toe, I'm not surprised. I am surprised that people don't do Double axel triple toe in their long program since you can do one of those and still have a triple into triple toe.
     
  3. krenseby

    krenseby New Member

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    Do you think the point total for a triple toe-triple toe should be raised or is it fine the way it is?
     
  4. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Cop dissuades it IMO. The 2nd triple is very difficult and more prone to ur or 2ft etc... and all the other stuff they've become so picky about with mandatory deductions. It's too risky.

    There is also no big bonus for combos. In a way, breaking everything down and spelling it all out left no wiggle room. Under 6.0, a judge could give an extra 0.1 to the lady who did a 2t/3t vs a 3t/2t. I don't think there is any way to give a bonus under cop for this more difficult combo.
     
  5. Mayra

    Mayra Well-Known Member

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    There are plenty of ladies attempting this combo in the short this season. At NHK alone, 6 out of the 10 ladies that competed planned or attempted a 3toe/3toe combo.
    :eek:

    With judges hitting skaters with change of edge deductions, I think you are going to see more and more skaters ditching the lutz and flip in the short in favor of the toe/toe.
     
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  6. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    Amber Corwin and Jenny Kirk were probably the first two skaters who ditched their 3 (f)lutz (>) combinations once COP came into affect in 2004-5.

    I think the fact that the skater can "default" to 3 toe-2 toe without automatic -3 GOE should they be not in the best position to complete the second 3 toe is another reason for its increasing popularity in the short program.
     
  7. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    It's more valuable in the short program because it's the easiest way to get three triples (as opposed to two triples and a double) into the two non-axel jumping passes.

    In the long program, there's less incentive. Triple toe is the lowest-value triple, so if you're able to get seven triples and a double axel into seven jumping passes in ways that allow to repeat two higher-value triples, that would be a better bet in terms of base mark.

    And, as always, the skaters also need to consider the odds of success. Can they land the 3-3 consistently in practice runthroughs (not just in isolation), well enough to deserve positive GOEs? Or do they risk the first landing going wrong or just being too slow to get another triple off of, or underrotating and/or falling on the second jump, in which case they lose points.

    I.e., the best jumpers might be able to get more points by planning harder combinations. For the so-so jumpers among those who can pull off 3T+3T at their best, it might be safer to plan easier content with higher probability of success and positive GOE. The weaker skaters can't do it at all.

    So that leaves the pretty-good jumpers for whom this combo would be a good choice.
     
  8. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    I personally think that there should be some sort of incentive on the whole to do difficult combinations. Anyway, if you don't feel comfortable going for the triple toe on the end of the first one, you're pretty much screwed because you'll be 1.9 points behind the triple lutz double toe person.
     
  9. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    In history, few ladies were able to land a 3T/3T consistently in competition. It seems difficult for most of the ladies, and do that combo with enough consistency in pratice, with the quality to deserve +GOE seems difficult as well.
     
  10. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    If Midori Ito was skating today, she would get +3 GOE every time she did the 3t-3t (which means every LP) or the 3A. Sorry, couldn't help reminiscing.
     
  11. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    IIRC at Russian Nationals triple-triple of any kind is rewarded with bonus points in ladies event. I just don't remember how much that was but it'll be great to "impose" this kind of incentive in the ISU sanctioned events, too. Probably it'll cause for ladies to upgrade their technical content more aggressively and may be able to kill current trends of winning with no more than four triples in long program. Certainly 70% factoring in GOE has failed to promote difficult jumps tried more frequently in ladies out of all FS disciplines.
     
  12. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    I would actually say this combo is very popular. About half of the ladies try it in the SP these days.
     
  13. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    It's a safer combination that any lutz or flip combination. At the very worst they can turn it into a 3t-2t and avoid a fall. That's why it's so popular.

    BTW who was the first lady to land a 3t-3t in a world championship? Was it Elaine Zayak or Denise Biellman or Midori Ito? Those are the only ones I can think of as capable of doing it.
     
  14. peibeck

    peibeck Counting down the days 'til Skate America

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    I think you don't see more skaters attempting it because they are not consistent with their speed coming out of the first triple toe and are likely to get downgraded on the second jump.

    I've always wondered why some skaters who have better edge jumps don't try a triple loop/double loop as their combo rather than a flutz/lip - toe combo in their SP.
     
  15. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Ito would have been the first to do it at Worlds. She was also the first female skater to do it in competition at all, I think 1981 Junior Worlds.

    I'm not aware of Zayak or Biellmann ever attempting that combination.
     
  16. nynyfee

    nynyfee Active Member

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    Wow she's good!
     
  17. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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  18. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    I think your first sentenced was the answer to your second one. the loop is harder to not cheat than. The toe when it's the 2nd jump in the combo. I think Mao is the only one even trying it now.
     
  19. kukkura

    kukkura Member

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    Some skaters have a strong 3t-3t although they often struggle with harder triples, like Sarah Hecken. And Lenka Kulovana did some good 3t-3t's while her only other triple was salchow.
     
  20. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. I still think a triple lutz-double toe or a triple flip-double toe should be worth more than the triple toe-triple toe. Come on. How many ladies can do a true triple lutz compared to a triple toe-triple toe? A triple toe-triple toe is still easier than doing a triple lutz or a triple lutz because technically, if you can do a triple toe, you could technically do a triple toe-triple toe.
     
  21. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    That's not strictly true, because many skaters can do a triple toe but not with enough speed and control to get another triple toe off the landing.

    3T+3T is certainly the easiest triple-triple, and it is easier for some skaters than triple lutz or flip, but I would say that those are a minority.

    How many ladies have ever done a 3T+3T in competition? At this point, maybe it's getting close to a hundred total over the past 30 years, most of them in the past ten. Then subtract all the skaters who attempted it but didn't land cleanly.

    How many ladies have ever done a 3Lz in competition? Many hundreds over the past 30 years, most in the last 20. Then subtract all the skaters who attempted but never landed it cleanly or never took off from the correct edge.

    Same with 3F.

    You'll still end up with a lot more who have landed 3Lz and/or 3F than who have landed 3T+3T.

    Is that because the rules or expectations encouraged them to develop the harder jump before developing the 3-3 combination? Yes, that's probably one factor.

    But go watch some novices or mid-ranked juniors or weak seniors landing 3T and ask yourself whether they look like technically, if they can do a triple toe, they could technically do a triple toe-triple toe. In most cases, I bet the answer will be no. And some of those who don't look like they can pull off the 3-3 can actually do 3F and/or 3Lz.
     
  22. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    But if you look at the proportion of skaters who can only do a triple toe-triple toe to the proportion of skaters who can do a flip and a lutz, there are many more skaters who can do only triple toe-triple toes.
     
  23. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    She was so incredible! The 3t-3t combination was like nothing for her. She was may be 20 years ahead of her time.
     
  24. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Based on having actually done them in competition? No way.

    Do you want to narrow down a time period so we can gather some data?
     
  25. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    This era, especially skaters who haven't gone to Worlds, but have skated nationally like Brittney Rizo at 2009 Nationals. And skaters who do both the flip and the lutz. Not one or the other.

    But even then, at 98 Olympics, Surya did a triple toe-triple toe in the short because the lutz and flip were giving her tons of problems.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2011
  26. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Oh please, not that example.
    Surya had tons of problems with the Lutz and Flip because she broke her achille's heel. :rolleyes:
    Few years later (2004), she was still able to do perfect 3Lz in exhibitions.
    She has never had problems with Lutz and Flip before and was attempting 3Lz/3T combos back in 1989.

    I'm sorry to say so, but I agree with gkelly. 3T/3T is not easier for Ladies, because the first triple need to be perfect, with a good glide and a perfect body position.
    And if you want examples of very good jumpers who can't do a 3/3 with no cheat : Julia Sebestyen and Vanessa Gusmeroli. Also, Michelle Kwan found the Lutz and Flip so much more easier than the 3T/3T.
     
  27. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    3lutz2toe vs 3toe3toe

    Is the extra difficulty of doing a 3lutz instead of a 3toe offset by doing a 3toe instead of a 2toe AT THE BACK END OF A COMBINATION JUMP?

    In my mind, absolutely. With a 3lutz2toe, the difficulty is mostly focused on the 1st jump. Once that's done, the 2toe is relatively easy even if the 3lutz landing is slightly off. With a 3toe3toe, the difficulty is more evenly spread out and you have to be perfect on the first to nail the second. Plus, there are definitely more skaters who can land lutzes and flips but not 3toe3toes, than the other way round - although this is much more apparent in the older days. Since Yamaguchi, all world ladies medalists have landed a lutz or flip in the free skate to medal but not all have landed a 3/3.

    In the old days, the way to go seems to be to conquer all the jumps before trying 3/3s (except Thomas...). Under COP, where there is a limit to jumping pass, skaters have to be smart with what they try, and there are more skaters like Lepisto, Hecken, etc.
     
  28. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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  29. MikiAndoFan#1

    MikiAndoFan#1 Well-Known Member

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  30. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    Dear me. I just saw it posted as Gracie's triple triple triple, and didn't even think to look at the entries. I was just struck slackjawed by the size of the jumps.