Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by kwanoverrated, Mar 30, 2014.
Has anyone seen the Shibs FD?
It is on youtube.
I wish it were better than it is. I have high hopes for them this year. The dance has potential but it's hard not to compare this waltz with MC's Die Fledermaus. The dance doesn't seem to build at an even pace and not quite enough to warrant the flourish of the first lift; seems premature. The twizzles are great.
I totally agree with that. However no way in hell the Shibs start the season as Marina's #1 either. They would need to prove themselves big and rip away/earn that spot.
I like the FD! I agree it's not Die Fledermaus, but I think this is the most promising FD they've had since 2011. It highlights their strengths nicely. The twizzle section is killer! It's so in-your-face--right in front of the judges, at a high point in the music, with 4 different twizzle sets included? Love it. I think the lifts need some work. Maia's positions need a little more extension, and the transitions on the third lift need to be a little smoother, but I'm sure they'll work on that, it's only early October. Overall I like this program.
So I notice that I keep getting drawn in to Maia's lovely back arch when she's in dance hold. Did anyone notice? Her costumes really accentuate it!
I love the sheer gold in the SD and the backless illusion in the FD. Good job, costume designer!
Holy Crap, they scored over 100? Did anyone expect that?
I didn't expect over 100, but close to that - yes. It's Ondrej Nepela Trophy, not a GP event or Worlds. The scores at Nebelhorn Trophy were slightly more realistic, but even those didn't reflect what scores the skaters would get at their GP events if skating the same.
Is that true? Are scores at Ondrej historically inflated? Are scored at Nebelhorn historically inflated? Also, don't scores tend to go up by Worlds (if the skater remains consistent and becomes more comfortable with the program)?
Anyway, I really enjoyed the dance. I think it's the best thing they've done since their Junior days. It reminds me of 1986 Klimova/Ponomarenko. Yeah, it's not D/W's Die Fledermaus, but I don't think that was what they were going for. They aren't as theatrical as Meryl/Charlie. They should work on it though in order to improve their projection, but they do have a much softer and understated style. Something Meryl/Charlie weren't known for.
I don't follow the event that closely, but I do remember Korpi getting a 69+ score in the short program once (obviously would never happen anywhere else).
I do like the Shibutanis new FD though.
I can't say if the scores have always been inflated at Nepela Trophy or Nebelhorn (haven't paid that much attention or simply don't remember), but they often are at B events (of course, there are exceptions). Probably it's just the effect of the contrast between the few high level skaters that take part and the rest, most of whom are much weaker skaters. Yes, the scores tend to go up by Worlds, but not so much compared to the early season B competitions, as to the GP events. Actually, I have often seen skaters getting lower scores at their GP events while skating about the same or even slightly better than in the B competitions. Anyway, I was saying that those top skaters who take part in the B events not skating their best wouldn't get the same scores at bigger competitions if skating at the same level.
If Shibutanis will skate much better in their subsequent events, then they probably will get similar or even higher scores (in the FD - their SD score wasn't that high, which probably means that it would be even lower in a bigger competition).
Did they beat any tough opponents at this event? It is good they are off to a good start. They are such a talented team.
I decided to look that up and after looking at various ice dance scores and comparing the B-event scores to the GP event scores for the past few seasons, I've come to the opposite conclusion of yours.
No, there were not any "tough" opponents for them at Ondrej Nepela Trophy. The closest were Guignard/Fabbri who are not a team of the same level.
It may be that you are right. Probably I have that impression because I am remembering specific skaters and their skates. We will see what happens with Shibutanis. I am not ecstatic about their new FD, it seems almost boring to me after the first watch (not enough changes of tempo, like rustyskater said, it doesn't build, the choreography is a bit empty, and they don't have enough charisma or even skill to fill it), but overall I like them and hope for good results.
I have a soft spot for the Shibs and really like this FD. I noticed Marina wasn't with them.
Either way, I think the score will count for SB purposes.
They won't be her #1 anytime soon, if ever. They need to go to a coach who will put them as a priority, not just another team buying her a new handbag.
Well like I said nobody would favor a team who hasn't been top 5 at worlds in 4 years over the reigning world champions initialy. It is hard to fault her for that. However in general I agree with you. They should have left Marina a long time ago. I wouldn't be surprised if she regards them her #3 again, behind the newly formed and perhaps promising, but completely unproven Russian team.
Well, that's just the thing. If you can see that you're being "shelfed" by the person you're paying to get you to the top, you have to speak with your money. Marina isn't the only one around that can get you to the top. Yes, she has quite the politicking power when it comes to her teams, but exactly how many teams does she have? I remember watching a live feed last year of a show and she never left the boards, and there were like 8 or 9 teams (exaggerating, but not by much here).
Are the Shibs the greatest dance team to ever grace the ice? No, but after a few seasons now of being put behind D/W and V/M and given programs that would guarantee they stay out of the other 2 teams way, you've molded them into a team that knows how to skate to a solid top 5 finish. Also, after a few seasons of being given "some" time with her but mostly being coached by her assistants, they may not have the best moves or been taught the little things that they need to, to move up to the Top 3 or higher.
I think Marina even being willing to take C&L on, and then to take on one of the new Russian teams, was a message of sorts to the Shibs. Then again it is hard for any coach to turn down offers of top students, and it would be hard to resist the temptation to steal one (C&L) from Igor. Still if she was really set to give the Shibs a go as her #1 now that V&M and D&W are gone, I dont think she would have taken those teams on.
I'm just happy that they got a respectably competitive FD score. Despite what people say about Marina not making them her no. 1 or that B events have inflated scores (I don't believe that at least in terms of ice dance), the judges could have kept their score in the early to mid 90s like they had in the past four years. They didn't, and I hope the Shibs feel good about it.
Shibutanis need to improve their artistry to be #1. Technically they are already the best out there with the retirements of V&M and D&W.
This is what @judgejudy27 and I are talking about. The Shibs are going to finish where Marina WANTS them to finish. They could improve to beyond D/W and V/M skill level and they still won't be #1 because face it, Marina won't let it happen.
I would like to think Marina would be happy if any of her teams become World Champions, including the Shibutanis. If that isnt the case then they do really need to go somewhere else. This is their first year there without V&M and D&W so I will reserve judgement as the season goes along.
Marina is more invested in the Italian and S/K right now. Meh I am so annoyed at her "beautiful blue eyes and best working ethnic team".
Watched the performances and did something rare that even for skating ubers takes a ridiculous amount of effort. I looked at the protocols.
What really stood out beyond the overall scores (and I think it's great that they got to break through 100 points for their FD) is that they had relatively low base values. In the SD, they received Level 1 and 2 in the patterns, and only level 2 in the footwork. And in the FD they had level 2 for one footwork and level 3 (huh?) for those gorgeously performed and choreographed twiddles.
What this means is that the JUDGES really liked their elements (good smattering of +3s) and their component marks were strong. Mid to high 8s on average and even some 9s. If they can raise those levels and continue to polish the programs (which already look very good in my opinion for a first time out) they really look competitive this year.
Their new FD is very good. New OD needs more work. I still don't see them overtaking Chock & Bates as U.S #1 or winning medal at worlds this year, but could be top 5 with great skates and a little luck.
I still havent found a v. of their FD that works on my ipad, but I definitely noticed her beautiful back arch in the SD. Fits the Spanish style perfectly. They both have fantastic style in that - from the moment they get on the ice they are in character and the opening pose is killer. Uncle Dick would be happy. The choreo is a bit lacking though - that music calls for more fire. Hopefully it will get improved over the season. If their FD is even better, I am really looking forward to their season.
Excuse me, I am pretty out of the loop due to family problems -- is this a direct quote???
^she did praise S/K as the fastest team in the world, that they have beautiful blue eyes, that they are the most Russian team, that they have best working attitude and once they are in the rink everyone just look at them. Meh...from their exhibition program I see nothing like that. Vika is cold as a dead fish and Nikita coudln't lift her right.
Marina should have pay more attention to the Shibs IMO.