the saga of Jian Ghomeshi

[MacMadame]

That was beautiful.

ETA I was talking about Aaron Paquette's piece.

But it's beautiful when people admit that they've been able to change their views too. I also was willing to believe the Facebook post at first. I had no idea who the guy was. And I've been in a position where I was approached me with a story about a mutual-ex and I felt like she was trying to get the guy's exes to band together in a kind of We're all Victims of Him club that made me uncomfortable. So I know that happens. So why not believe him?

As I said... that FB post was genius.

 

[Artemis@BC]

^ Wasn't it just? Gives me hope ...

 

[susan6]

I guess I have been pretty fortunate in my dealings with men. Aside from the bullying I got in high school, (barking, calling me a dog, etc...), guys have pretty much ignored me sexually. I have never been whistled at or groped or had any sort of unwanted attention. Nobody has ever called me Baby!

I have worked in factories, restaurants, retail, other customer services, and at a college, and have always felt respected in every aspect. When I was a teen I hitch hiked around town, and partied with guys I had just met, and never felt insecure or afraid. Guess I am more of the sister or buddy type.

I get along with men just fine, in fact my best friend is a guy. But, all my interactions are totally platonic; no guy ever comes on to or hits on me. So apparently, having a bitch face has some advantages after all!

Hugs to all of you who have to deal with being sexually harassed.

High-five! This is totally my life. Whatever this "bitch-face" thing that we have is (my friends call it my "f**k off aura"....I can literally walk around in a belly dancing outfit and no one will say a thing), we should bottle it and sell it. Of course, the down-side of it sucks, but luckily I've never wanted kids.

 

[Scrufflet]

I guess I have been pretty fortunate in my dealings with men. Aside from the bullying I got in high school, (barking, calling me a dog, etc...), guys have pretty much ignored me sexually. I have never been whistled at or groped or had any sort of unwanted attention. Nobody has ever called me Baby!

I have worked in factories, restaurants, retail, other customer services, and at a college, and have always felt respected in every aspect. When I was a teen I hitch hiked around town, and partied with guys I had just met, and never felt insecure or afraid. Guess I am more of the sister or buddy type.

I get along with men just fine, in fact my best friend is a guy. But, all my interactions are totally platonic; no guy ever comes on to or hits on me. So apparently, having a bitch face has some advantages after all!

Hugs to all of you who have to deal with being sexually harassed.

I'd lay odds that you behave with confidence and assertiveness. When I managed to develop that in my youth, I found that the number of incidents decreased.

 

[Desperado]

Toronto police now investigating.

 

[PRlady]

I'd lay odds that you behave with confidence and assertiveness. When I managed to develop that in my youth, I found that the number of incidents decreased.

Well, that's problematic too. I used to think that I never had a serious date-rape or sexual harassment scenario because I was too assertive and ballsy, not "victim-like." But it finally occurred to me that's a form of victim-blaming too, as if every woman just had to woman-up and learn how to get them to feck off and then it wouldn't happen. I don't think that's true, and I do know of confident women who have endured this, as well as two family-members who endured stranger-rape. One was quite young at the time but the other was a grown young woman, street-smart and savvy. There was nothing she could have done.

 

[MacMadame]

This is why I added "and luck" to my post. I know that part of why I don't get a lot of hassle is what I put out. It's also the way I interpret things. Like sometimes I'll be in a group and afterwards my girlfriends will tell me some guy was hitting on me and I'm all "no way!" So maybe I've had guys attempt stuff with me and I've just been too dense to notice? But also, there is definitely luck involved. And it's not like I've never been in any situation where I had unwanted advances. It just never happened at work.

 

[Anita18]

I guess I have been pretty fortunate in my dealings with men. Aside from the bullying I got in high school, (barking, calling me a dog, etc...), guys have pretty much ignored me sexually. I have never been whistled at or groped or had any sort of unwanted attention. Nobody has ever called me Baby!

I have worked in factories, restaurants, retail, other customer services, and at a college, and have always felt respected in every aspect. When I was a teen I hitch hiked around town, and partied with guys I had just met, and never felt insecure or afraid. Guess I am more of the sister or buddy type.

I get along with men just fine, in fact my best friend is a guy. But, all my interactions are totally platonic; no guy ever comes on to or hits on me. So apparently, having a bitch face has some advantages after all!

Hugs to all of you who have to deal with being sexually harassed.

I think I am too, and I think that vibe is independent of body type - I'm very thin and I'm Asian and I'm often described as "cute," (though not sexy) so you'd think that would be a creep magnet but...nope. Only one guy has ever been interested in me in that way, and I got lucky, because it was Alf.

But just because it doesn't happen to me, doesn't mean it doesn't happen to women in general. I have friends of all sizes who have told me horror stories from conferences and just trying to live life. And it isn't like it's anyone's "fault," cause you can't help your own unconscious vibe! Nobody deserves to be treated as less than a person, no matter how they're acting.

 

[mag]

That was, at least in part, my reaction when I started this thread: keeping an open mind, seeing both sides. But that quickly changed as new information became public. Then more. Then more.

And that's what's been the biggest struggle for me. Aside from feeling compassion and solidarity for these women, I feel embarrassed at how quick I was, initially, to believe the PR, to believe that there are actually two sides here.

I think it is important to keep an open mind and look at both sides, but, and it is a big but, there is a difference between doing just that and being totally in denial and twisting and distorting things to try and find excuses. The first thing I read about Jian was his Facebook post. It was brilliantly written and I did find myself starting to believe. Then as I read on I started to hear those alarm bells in my head. I came here, because all the best info is on FSU, and started to learn more. It really only took a couple of articles for me to realize that while there may be two sides, Jian's was definitely not the side I want to be on!

What I find interesting is that there were a number of posts on my FB looking for support for Jian and wanting people to pressure CBC to re hire him. Those people have all changed their tune in the last couple of days.

 

[quartz]

I'd lay odds that you behave with confidence and assertiveness. When I managed to develop that in my youth, I found that the number of incidents decreased.

The only thing I am confident about is that men are simply not interested in me sexually. I am still mystified as to how I managed to get married. I have always said that my husband was the only man who saw past the ugly and really looked into my eyes. I am so introverted, it's a good thing I never had to worry about being whistled at, or being hit on, as if it did happen, I would be totally freaked out. I really am lucky never to have had to deal with man shit.

 

[DAngel]

What I meant was in a more general sense, that when one man is accused of harassment, there seems to be this assumption by some women that because he is a man he is automatically guilty, that this is just another example of rape culture, that no woman is believed when she speaks up about this, that all women are victims of harassment/abuse, etc.

I'm pretty sure that several of the posters here are old enough to remember when there wasn't such a thing as sexual harassment in the workplace, and any woman who complained about inappropriate behaviour was called a whiner or too sensitive . Or she didn't get the jobs or assignments she should have because she complained, or because she refused to do something. That was wrong. But sometimes I feel like things have gone a little too far in the other direction.

To me, those two things are just not equivalent. To me, "some women" is just not even close to being equivalent to a company/men-in-charge. And that is also what I was referring to when I mentioned the NFL. Just as this case shows us, institutions still ignore and hush up mistreatment of women.

 

[Scrufflet]

Well, that's problematic too. I used to think that I never had a serious date-rape or sexual harassment scenario because I was too assertive and ballsy, not "victim-like." But it finally occurred to me that's a form of victim-blaming too, as if every woman just had to woman-up and learn how to get them to feck off and then it wouldn't happen. I don't think that's true, and I do know of confident women who have endured this, as well as two family-members who endured stranger-rape. One was quite young at the time but the other was a grown young woman, street-smart and savvy. There was nothing she could have done.

I do agree with you! There are situations where nothing would have helped. I think that when there are two polar opposites - those who have been abused and those who say "woman up and fight back"- no one wins. In an ideal world, this garbage would not happen. But until we get there, we have to use every tool in our arsenal to make our own way. I hope that would mean encouraging, supporting and believing those who have been abused . If gaining confidence can narrow the odds, let's go for it. I think yhat stranger rape is quite different from what happened here, It appeared that these women thought they were safe until the first blow hit.
As an older woman with mobility issues, I cannot stop abuse but I sure can use my voice to stand up for other women and will continue. I have felt quite depressed by the lot of women in our culture for some time now and wondered why there wasn't a new wave of feminism to speak out about it. I was wrong. There is; I just didn't see it. I'm very glad to see vocal young people doing it. And it seems that more young men are getting involved. In my era, they seemed to be hugely silent. My perception. I could be wrong.

 

[mag]

Another blog that really gets one thinking ...

http://davidkeithlaw.wordpress.com/2014/11/01/jian-ghomeshi-and-the-squadron-of-cowards/

 

[MacMadame]

The issue I have with the article is that I don't think the people who "knew" but didn't say anything are necessarily cowards. The problem is that they didn't really know. They just "knew". And that's different.

It's like that guy at the rink I mentioned before. Everyone "knew" he was a sleaze. But it was all gossip. He never did anything to *me* personally. He just creeped me out. Plus I heard stories. So when a new victim showed up, we made sure she heard the stories too. But what else could we do? The women who he had sleazed had chosen not to be public about it so it wasn't up to us to tell people their stories. Assuming we even knew their names or all the details, which many times we didn't.

Now this was just a case of a douchebag and not someone who was violent. But what if the story wasn't just that he came on to all the new women who showed up at the rinks so he could add them to his scorecard and then dumped them? What if the story was that you shouldn't be alone with him because he was violent. Unless it happened to me or someone it happened to told me about it and I encouraged her to report it and promised to support her and be there for her, what exactly was I supposed to do about it or him? In the absence of any sort of proof, all I could do was warn others. And let them make up their own minds and have their own experiences. And that's what happened with Jian.

I think that's different than the people who actively encouraged victims not to report it and/or to suck it up. Those people are cowards and their conscience should weigh heavy.

 

[puglover]

One thing I find most interesting and sad is the state of denial, inflated ego, narcism, whatever, Jian must have been in - at least according to the latest media reports. It sounds like the CBC had been alerted to his situation some time ago and were prepared to believe and support him - until he voluntarily showed them a video himself of the alleged abuse. Their reaction to watching the video seems to have been shock and lead to a unanimous vote to part ways with him. He then reacts with his famous Facebook post in which he paints himself as a victim of a jilted girlfriend, over zealous reporter, claims that he never did anything without "consent", and that what he does in the bedroom is nobody's business. I am not sure what part his public relations firm played in this decision but as they have also quit him - it sounds like they were in the dark about some things as well. Regardless, that Facebook posting obviously angered the trail of women who felt violated by him and now he faces 9 accusers. That took it from a "he said - she said" to a "he said- she said, she said, she said", etc. He has apparently vowed to fight on but to me that continues to show his very warped mind set.

I admire the women who have come forward and certainly understand the reasons they didn't report this when it happened. I am saddened that things do not seem to have changed all that much since I was young.

 

[mag]

MacMadame,
I agree it is certainly not black and white. I think the author was pushing it to the extreme a bit as a way of trying to get people to think. I have seen it happen and I have done it myself where it is just easier to keep quiet than make a fuss. Sometimes that is okay, but often it isn't. I was involved in a complicated situation a number of years ago and it was mostly just gossip, but there was one adult who had the knowledge and the power to do something, but she will never get involved in anything. Her S.O.P. is to sit back and say nothing because she doesn't like to "get involved." I also think that there must of been a number of people at the CBC who were in a position to do something but chose not to. As a manager one does have the responsibility to investigate when the gossip mill starts spitting out the same consistent story.

 

[MacMadame]

I definitely agree that there were cowards here. When that one woman complained about his behavior to her superiors, she was told that "that's just the way he is" and "he's never going to change so how can you make working here better for you" and that is unconscionable. They basically said that he wasn't going to be dealt with because he was more important than her even if those words weren't used.

But not everyone is in a position to do things and not everyone knows something actionable. That's all I'm saying. I don't know what you do when you are in a position where you only know gossip. Some people would say it's actually wrong to spread gossip and that this thing that we do where we take people aside and warn them about scary men is wrong, too. I can see that side but I've never seen it done where it wasn't necessary.

 

[screech]

I think that the only way he could salvage anything right now is to do kind of like what Tiger Woods did after his scandal - admit that he made some errors of judgement, and offer an apology.

One thing that he does have working for his defense though is that it's harder to prove that someone did not give consent than it is to prove that they did give it. The women have no proof that they said no to anything (even though I'm sure they did).

 

[puglover]

I agree, screech, his only chance is to change tactics, own up and go to rehab or something. However, that may make him liable as at least 3 of the women have now gone to the police. I think they will face a very up hill battle with these charges - that is unless Jian himself goes ahead with his case against the CBC, in which case I guess this video would become evidence.

I am not reading of many who think the CBC let him go out of prudishness or spite and public sentiment seems to have shifted to really wondering what the CBC knew and when they knew it

 

[algonquin]

Puglover - http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...sion-to-fire-ghomeshi/article21396998/?page=1

 

[Jenny]

I have to disagree, because I don't think he can recover from this. Even if he beats the charges (perhaps due to lack of evidence) or somehow scores one on the CBC because of a procedural technicality, he's never going to regain public trust, nor will any employer or other organization want anything to do with him. This is not somebody who made some bad judgement calls - this is a person living in a distorted reality who by all indications has no idea that he's done anything wrong. At this point if he says he's sorry and says he's going to work on bettering himself, no one is going to believe him. And even if he dedicates his life to improving himself for the next few years, I can't see anyone wanting to be associated with him, certainly not publicly at least. Even the one bit of talent that some are still acknowledging - his ability as an interviewer - is a closed door, because who would agree to talk to him? Not to mention that now everyone knows he didn't write most of his on-air essays that won him so many fans, and while it's not uncommon for people to have ghostwriters, the fact that the image he projected was very different than the heinous reality means that regaining public trust will be near impossible.

Tiger screwed up, there's no question. But he's surviving because he owned up to what he did, and he paid the price in the breakup of his marriage, loss of sponsorships and some say effect on his game. And all he did was cheat on his wife, which while not acceptable to most of society, is a far, far cry from what is emerging as a long established pattern of violence and abuse by Jian that included punching a woman in the head and calling it "consensual."

 

[puglover]

I don't think he can recover either - I hope he does not proceed with the plans he has stated of late to fight this. According to the Globe and Mail article that algonquin linked above - I guess the CBC saw photos he provided - not a video.

 

[liv]

I also find it interesting that Western cautioned its students against interning on his show, Q. Hmmm, sounds like more people "knew" but didn't "know."

 

[MacMadame]

Is Canada less forgiving than the US? Because in the US, all he really has to do is go away for a while and come back saying he's sorry for the past and he's changed and that would pretty much be it. At least for someone talented, that seems to be all it takes.

 

[algonquin]

Is Canada less forgiving than the US? Because in the US, all he really has to do is go away for a while and come back saying he's sorry for the past and he's changed and that would pretty much be it. At least for someone talented, that seems to be all it takes.

We never had a sex scandal like this before that I can remember anyway. There have been a few prominent sports & entertain personalities charged with embezzlement. They did their time and not much was heard from them after that. Conrad Black is the only one that has kept in the spotlight, but he has an ego the size of Russia.

Jian's career is toast in Canada. No private broadcaster will pick him up after all this. Maybe, he could be hired in the States or Europe, but not here.

 

[Artemis@BC]

Is Canada less forgiving than the US? Because in the US, all he really has to do is go away for a while and come back saying he's sorry for the past and he's changed and that would pretty much be it. At least for someone talented, that seems to be all it takes.

The issue is that his program was so completely CBC, and there aren't any other broadcasters in Canada that are remotely comparable. At least not on a national level. And even if he were to change formats, the opportunities for national syndication of any type of radio show outside of the CBC are very rare indeed.

It's possible that he could find a smaller market, private broadcaster that might take him on, even without the requisite mea culpa, but given his ego I'm not sure he'd accept a "step down" like that.

As for TV ... well I suppose it's possible. But aside from any reputation that goes along with his name, and whether they buy into the "any publicity is good publicity" mentality, employers in any industry would have to think twice about the liability associated with hiring a (alleged) abuser/harasser. If anyone hires him, and then he pulls his usual tricks, that company could face a huge law suit.

 

[snoopy]

There is Sirius - they picked up Stern. Though Jian essentially had a NPR crowd so I don't know that satellite radio would have his audience.

We get Q on NPR here, there is a lady hosting now.

 

[MacMadame]

The issue is that his program was so completely CBC, and there aren't any other broadcasters in Canada that are remotely comparable.

You are assuming he'd do the same job he's doing now. But he was a "punk rock star" before. He seems like someone who wants to be the spotlight so I think he'd be happy with anything that involved entertainment. There are a wide variety of jobs in the vein. He could try his hands at acting or be a straight interviewer or go back to the music industry.

employers in any industry would have to think twice about the liability associated with hiring a (alleged) abuser/harasser. If anyone hires him, and then he pulls his usual tricks, that company could face a huge law suit.

Ah, but to be forgiven in the US, you have to say you're sorry and you'll never do it again. Once you do that, any employer who won't hire you is now seen as churlish and as not being willing to give you a second chance. And they have no especially liability as long as they react properly once they find you you've "relapsed."

There is Sirius - they picked up Stern.

Was Stern ever known for hurting people? My understanding is mostly that he just has a mouth on him but that people who work for him like him. Also, when Sirius picked up him, it was seen as quite the coup to pluck him away from over-the-air radio to their little channel. They had to pay him the big bucks to get him to agree and big bucks when they renewed his contract. He didn't slink over there in the middle of the night surrounded by scandal.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Oh, boy:
http://business.financialpost.com/2...ip-he-had-to-play-in-his-defence-lawyer-says/

 

[snoopy]

Was Stern ever known for hurting people? My understanding is mostly that he just has a mouth on him but that people who work for him like him. Also, when Sirius picked up him, it was seen as quite the coup to pluck him away from over-the-air radio to their little channel. They had to pay him the big bucks to get him to agree and big bucks when they renewed his contract. He didn't slink over there in the middle of the night surrounded by scandal.

You're right about stern. I was just going for a possible angle as to how Jian ends up with another gig. Also, I don't know their relative audiences. I'd bet sterns is much larger despite Jian's native popularity.