the saga of Jian Ghomeshi

[Habs]

Christie Blatchford has spoken: http://www.canada.com/news/Blatchford Jian Ghomeshi scandal sordid modern tale bullying/10329553/story.html?__federated=1

I do believe strongly in innocent until proven guilty, but this kind of journalism bugs me. She glosses right over the sexual harrassment in the workplace piece, which is what I suspect got Ghomeshi fired. I know it is an opinion piece, and I shouldn't have high expectations for Blatchford, but a little more balance would have been nice.

Typical of Christie Blatchford, though.

 

[viennese]

The crux of Ghomeshi's lawsuit seems to be that he's pissed off that the CBC, in its statement about his departure, used different and less praiseful wording about him. And that they leaked information about his private life (to who - I can't figure out. The Star, I guess, but it doesn't connect the dots.)

 

[Karina1974]

You may find it interesting to read Heather Mallick's article today in the Toronto Star (sorry, I've never been able to master links). And I want to thank everyone in this thread who posted some very good links as well. This story is far from over.

This one?

I'll say one thing. If I was in the position of that one woman they mention who claims he fondled her and said he wanted to "hate-feck" her, I would have been breaking furniture over his head and shouting at the top of my chest-voice for him to get away from me before I fecking put him in the hospital ICU. That's one thing I wish our society would do is to encourage women that if someone threatens you or touches you when you don't want it, it's perfectly OK to get loud and violent in response.

I know I didn't "stay silent" about my experience. I anonymously informed the s'path's girlfriend (I was one of the OW's) of his activites, and then a few months later I contacted the other OW, who had become his gf even after she found out the extent of the lies he told her (some of the same ones he told me about himself), and we had a looong conversation via Facebook about him. From what she wasn't saying, I guess she finally broke it off with him, or was going to break it off. In the meantime, I informed him via text that it was me who had outed him (still wish I could've told him in person just to see the look on his face!), and that I was "above and beyond" him now. Never heard back from him, and that was 13 months ago. He wouldn't chase after me, because I'm too much of a challenge for him, I know his game, and he knows I won't stand for his bullshit. Plus he's probably still pissed off that I outed him. Good. Not that it made a difference to him in the long run. All of us women are disposable to him. For every woman who's had a bad experience with him there are at least a dozen or more who want him to get in their pants because when they listen to him singing 'My Girl" or "Unforgettable" during Karaoke night down at the bowling alley they think he is being sincere in his performance.

 

[Alixana]

I'll say one thing. If I was in the position of that one woman they mention who claims he fondled her and said he wanted to "hate-feck" her, I would have been breaking furniture over his head and shouting at the top of my chest-voice for him to get away from me before I fecking put him in the hospital ICU. That's one thing I wish our society would do is to encourage women that if someone threatens you or touches you when you don't want it, it's perfectly OK to get loud and violent in response.

Agree 100%

 

[overedge]

And I'll say another thing. The woman who Ghomeshi allegedly fondled at work is an employee of a company that has had major layoffs in the past and is about to have another round of major layoffs. Plus Ghomeshi is a big-name star at this company, and she apparently is not. Those circumstances might explain why she didn't respond by breaking furniture over his head and threatening to put him in the ICU.

 

[MacMadame]

It's easy enough to say "I wouldn't put up with it" but often these guys are masters at doing things in such a way that it's not black and white but gray. I mean obviously if someone hits you, that's pretty black and white. But if someone says something suggestive, that's gray. Maybe you misunderstood or misheard. Maybe in the context of what went before, it doesn't seem totally 100% bad. Or maybe it is bad but because of what went on before, you feel like you can't scream about it because you will look like a hypocrite. In fact, isn't that what some of the women who are involved anonymously have said. They didn't go to the police because they felt the fact that they were talking about doing some kinky stuff beforehand undermined their credibility that they didn't want to be punched in the face later? And, let's face it. It would have undermined their credibility.

Maybe the gal who had those things said to her had a flirty relationship at first and now she felt like her hands were tied. Maybe she felt like if she was physically violent with Jian, she'd be fired, not him. (And, she would be. You can't beat up people in the workplace because they said something you didn't like.) Maybe she thought, if she said something right there, the dude would make fun of her and everyone would laugh at her for not being sophisticated and for taking things too seriously. (Which is also a distinct possibility. We've all be victim of the "Aw, honey, can't you take a joke?" comeback. It puts you on the defensive and the aggressor in the driver's seat.)

I do think the answer is to push back right away and be more willing to call people out on things that make you uncomfortable and to be more public about these things. I'm not saying we should stay in the dark ages where women whisper to each other about who to avoid being alone with in the elevator at conferences. What am saying is that while this might be the most effective way to deal with these men, it's not easy to do that and we need to recognize that. Otherwise it's like saying "why doesn't she just leave him?" to the battered wife and thinking you've provided some sort of support.

If it were easy, we'd all be doing it already.

 

[screech]

So my friend who works at CBC and briefly dated Jian told me that things at work are 'interesting' right now, with new information and opinions every day. She said that things are a bit rocky - it's a challenging time, but she's optimistic, saying that change can be good and hopefully CBC can successfully move forward after all of this. It doesn't seem like she's gotten sucked into the scandal, but she had kept their brief relationship quiet, so likely most people at work don't know about it, which is great.

 

[overedge]

I am very puzzled. Because at the moment there is a parallel set of scandals going on in the atheist/humanist world where gender relations are by many accounts poisonous. And you all may be aware of the Gamergate controversies in the online gaming world.

Either we are having a moment where a lot of young-ish women who may not have previously identified as feminist just get fed up and tell the truth...or the whole "rape culture" thing is out of control and ordinary jerky behavior is being re categorized.

This is something I have been wondering too. Earlier this week, I read the stories that TygerLily linked to above (about the allegations of abusive behaviour in the Canadian literary community), and a few others about the same allegations. And I have to admit that I found it really bothersome to read so many comments blindly supporting the allegations. The few posters who dared to suggest even *some* personal responsibility for what happens to you, e.g. maybe it is not a good idea to go drinking with someone whose behaviour you're not comfortable with, got very harsh responses. Of course it is not someone's fault if they get abused, and if men are the abusers, they are the ones who should be getting the pressure to change their behaviour instead of the women they are abusing. But one way for standing up for yourself is not to engage with people whose behaviour you don't trust, and that seemed to elude some of the posters.

This also reminds me of the Twitter messages I paraphrased earlier in the thread, along the lines of all men are abusive and all women are victims whose stories don't get believed. That really bothers me too.

I'm pretty sure that several of the posters here are old enough to remember when there wasn't such a thing as sexual harassment in the workplace, and any woman who complained about inappropriate behaviour was called a whiner or too sensitive . Or she didn't get the jobs or assignments she should have because she complained, or because she refused to do something. That was wrong. But sometimes I feel like things have gone a little too far in the other direction.

 

[liv]

I never liked him and I can't really say why. I actually could not even look at pictures of him because he turned me off so much and that feeling started years ago. Of course that means nothing, but if the allegations against him are true, well, then i can say I might have good intuition.

 

[skategal]

Same here liv. He has always set my 'creepdar' pinging.

 

[Desperado]

I read his book because we're the same age and I could relate to that era and followed his Twitter feed for a while until he waxed on about why he did a radio show on rape culture that was geared as a debate (does rape culture really exist?): http://www.canada.com/news/talk+abo...strated+with+Jian+Ghomeshi/9659237/story.html

I also had trouble with the monologues he did accompanied by elevator music. When I read the texts online they were nice, but hearing the whole set up, it just seemed way too pompous/narcissistic to me.

It doesn't mean he did the actions he's being accused of, but I think these ladies have very little too gain by talking about these abuses and the way he just basically boasted about his sex life on Facebook doesn't score any points with me.

 

[allezfred]

Was this the same guy who hit on Tessa Virtue at some event in the "Tessa & Scott" documentary*?

*Which was frankly the most interesting thing they ever did in their whole careers.

 

[PeterG]

Was this the same guy who hit on Tessa Virtue at some event in the "Tessa & Scott" documentary*?

*Which was frankly the most interesting thing they ever did in their whole careers.

Yes.

 

[MacMadame]

So this is actually Skating New! (See everything in life is really about Skating.

 

[pat c]

I can. His show was waaaay too much about himself, and he is one of the most kiss - ass suck - up interviewers I've ever heard. And at 47 he is a little too old to be trying to work the Queen Street hipster persona.

This. And I listen to CBC often, but his show I usually turned away from.

I was surprised to read that he'd been fired, and I'm reserving judgement for the most part, but his fb explanation doesn't make me believe him. Smoke/fire...............cynic.

 

[Desperado]

Was this the same guy who hit on Tessa Virtue at some event in the "Tessa & Scott" documentary*?

*Which was frankly the most interesting thing they ever did in their whole careers.

Yes.

Yuck! I didn't watch the show, can you tell us more?

 

[PeterG]

Scott and Tessa were doing a lot of promotional stuff, and one was an event where Jian was also attending. He expressed interest in her...I wasn't really sure if she was in awe of that or if maybe she was thinking, "you're kinda old for me, dude..." I think the former, I didn't realize until this thread that he was 47, I thought he was in his late 30's. But she was so busy, I doubt she had time to follow up on things if she was in fact interested.

P.S. What is the "yuck" in your post in reference to? Men expressing interest in women?

 

[Desperado]

P.S. What is the "yuck" in your post in reference to? Men expressing interest in women?

No, just a feeling based on nothing more than internet stories that she's way too good for him and my personal annoyance of older men's interest in dating much younger women.

 

[literaryfreak]

Yuck! I didn't watch the show, can you tell us more?

It happens here, at 20:42.

 

[overedge]

It happens here, at 20:42.

In retrospect....[shudder]. Tessa didn't look too thrilled to hear that Jian was going to be in Sochi and "just hang out with you guys"....

 

[MacMadame]

That's the lamest "hit on" ever.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Except it's followed by her "Dating would be difficult" speech.

 

[PRlady]

It looks like Patrick is going no, no, no. For the first time, I really like him.

 

[MacMadame]

Except it's followed by her "Dating would be difficult" speech.

Which happened at a completely different time and place and probably wasn't connected at all.

 

[pat c]

http://business.financialpost.com/2014/10/28/jian-ghomseshi-lawsuit-cbc/

Given that they have already been painted by Ghomeshi’s version of events as being into BDSM kink...............
how quickly will any accusers come forward publicly now and risk being joined to this outsized action?

Yes, there wouldn't be a huge rush would there?

 

[kwanfan1818]

Which happened at a completely different time and place and probably wasn't connected at all.

I'm sure it was.

 

[Scrufflet]

It looks like Patrick is going no, no, no. For the first time, I really like him.

Interesting. When I first saw that I wondered what Patrick's reaction was all about. Good on him and I've always liked him. To me, Tessa was unreadable.

 

[antmanb]

So my friend who works at CBC and briefly dated Jian told me that things at work are 'interesting' right now, with new information and opinions every day. She said that things are a bit rocky - it's a challenging time, but she's optimistic, saying that change can be good and hopefully CBC can successfully move forward after all of this. It doesn't seem like she's gotten sucked into the scandal, but she had kept their brief relationship quiet, so likely most people at work don't know about it, which is great.

I'm sure she'd be really pleased to know that you are posting about it on the internet too

 

[kwanfan1818]

A statement by Owen Pallett:

http://www.aux.tv/2014/10/read-owen...ement-about-jian-ghomeshis-abuse-allegations/

ETA: There are some interesting links and links within links, such as these:

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/ar...t-claims-he-was-fired-for-consensual-bdsm-sex

We will have to keep reading, like Zanin says, with open minds and operational bullshit detectors

.

http://sexgeek.wordpress.com/2014/10/27/poor-persecuted-pervert/

The updates at the bottom of Dan Savage's Slog post have some interesting and frightening info:

UPDATE 2: Brenda Cossman, writing in the Globe and Mail, points out that consenting to BDSM sex—at least in Canada—is legally irrelevant:

On the one hand, this is the classic he said/she said of sexual assault. Consent is the dividing line between sex and sexual assault, and its presence or absence is often the linchpin of sexual assault prosecutions.... But, when it comes to BDSM—or at least its more intense versions—the law doesn’t actually care about consent. The Supreme Court has said that a person cannot consent to assault. While the cases have typically arisen in the context of bar room brawls or hockey violence, other courts have applied the same reasoning to the sexual context. So, if a sexual activity causes bodily harm, a person cannot consent to it.

This is pretty problematic from the perspective of the BDSM community. Carefully negotiated consent is rendered irrelevant, and effectively criminalizes all those who derive sexual pleasure from activities that involve physical pain, if it leaves a mark. But, it’s the law.

UPDATE 3: And Howard Levitt, writing in the Financial Post, says that employers actually can fire you for your private, consensual sexual practices.

Cossman is a law professor.

 

[viennese]

Interesting. When I first saw that I wondered what Patrick's reaction was all about. Good on him and I've always liked him. To me, Tessa was unreadable.

I couldn't figure out if that was clever editing (Chan shaking his head "No, no") or a him having a gut reaction to a person he didn't like.
Either way, good for Chan.