"The quad"

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Skittl1321, Oct 22, 2013.

  1. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    11,324
    Does it bother anyone else that media talks so much about "the quad", wording it that way. I really think they way they talk about it does great disservice to the sport and to spectators who are only casual fans.

    When you hear Max Aaron fell on "the quad" and Adam Rippon put his hand down on "the quad"- doesn't it sound like they were doing the exact same thing? And yet, a quad lutz is way harder than a quad toe, so Adam's hand down seems like less of a mistake.

    What if I said they both landed "the quad"? Wouldn't most casual fans think they got the same amount of points? Did the same thing? But what kind of quad did they do? A toe, a sal, a lutz?

    There is not one single jump called "the quad", and it just makes me angry that broadcasters and sports writers act like there is. (Then again, a lot of what broadcasters/writers do makes me angry.)
     
  2. personwhoishere

    personwhoishere Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2005
    Messages:
    1,378
    I think the ability to do a quad, any quad, has been what has begun to separate the top men from the second tier ones. Also, almost all men doing quads are doing quad toe loops, with a handful doing quad salchows. There's very little difference in base value between those two jumps, and when a skater is attempting a more difficult/unusual jump, such as Rippon with the quad lutz, I think they do usually make note of that.
    I think it's worse in ladies, honestly. Doing a triple-triple and/or completing 7 triples in a freeskate is supposed to be a differentiating factor, but there's a much bigger world of difference between a triple lutz/triple loop combo and a triple toe/triple toe combo, than there is between a quad sal and a quad toe. There's a much greater variety of triple/triples being done than there are quads, and I think the former are all lumped together a lot more frequently. So I understand what you're saying, but I haven't experienced quite the same sense of frustration that you have. Maybe we've just read/listened to different writers/commentators.
     
  3. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2002
    Messages:
    4,364
    I suppose there should have been some emphasis that Rippon's attempt was a Lutz, which is far more rare than the toe or salchow. I seem to remember when Weiss and Moroz were trying to the do harder quads, they were clearly noted as lutz or flip, and a big deal was made out of it. Maybe the commentator was just lazy this time (or were all the commentators doing this for Skate Am?). Was it Kwiatowski? You can only expect so much from Yoeman class commentary.
     
  4. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    11,324
    Well, this is true. Actually- the commentators are just in general, but Tonia is who I hear most often. This rant comes after reading ESPN. Maybe it is just an AP article, but I've seen it elsewhere too.
     
  5. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2005
    Messages:
    1,111
    How can you expect the average layman understand what is good skating when the skating establishment doesn't know/can't decide what is good skating? 90% of figure skating's image problems are self inflicted.
     
  6. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2002
    Messages:
    1,349
    That wasn't a problem on the CBC, Kurt Browning made it very clear that he was very impressed with Adam's quad lutz attempt (as well as the general improvement in his skating).
     
    spikydurian and (deleted member) like this.
  7. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2009
    Messages:
    6,449
    I agree there is a lack of detail about what is going on regarding what a quad is and what specifically is being done. There is also a lack of detail generally about a lot of things in the commentary on skating. You can hear quad talk without ever getting that it's a difficult 4 revolution jump! And I agree there was a lack of talk about lutz salchow toe attempts. Coverage is really lacking in quality.
     
  8. PairSk8Fan

    PairSk8Fan Banned Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2009
    Messages:
    330
    The "quad" has been a part of Olympic Skating since Alexei Urmanov did the first Olympic quadruple toe loop in Albertville in 1992 at the age of 17 (what a beautiful jump it was!) and that makes it a part of Olympic skating for over 21 years.

    Sportscasting should catch up to recognize that there are different quads. We have seen quad toe, quad salcow and quad lutz all ratified since 1992, and it seems quad toe loop is the easiest.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
  9. Eladola

    Eladola Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2010
    Messages:
    391
    I don't think spectators and Casual fans even care about the difference between a triple lutz and a triple toe for that matter, Wether the "Media" names them or not,
    Besides, Everyone dumbs their analysis down for major events like Olympics
     
  10. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    11,324
    Yes, and I remember yelling at the TV during the gymnastics trials because they were using this red/yellow/green system to show whether there were a lot of a few deductions- but it didn't take into account any of the difficulty of the element. Thus a skater could be "green" (good) with a lower score than someone who was "red" (bad). I don't even watch gymnastics except Olympic years and I knew it was stupid. I wanted to know more about the sport. Just like when I watch curling, I appreciate that they take time to explain what the heck is going on.

    Not caring about the difference between a quad lutz and a quad toe is like saying there is no difference between a touchdown and a field goal. As a commentator, it is your job to inform. Obsessive fans don't need commentary, they can follow without it. Commentators are there FOR the casual fan.
     
  11. misskarne

    misskarne #ForzaJules #KeepFightingMichael

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,888
    I suppose for so many years the majority of quads - maybe 90% - were 4Ts, with the occasional foray into 4S, and sometimes Plushy would get crazy and try things like 4Lz. So "the quad" became shorthand for the quad toe, because it was most common. I agree, they're going to have to start differentiating the jumps, since we've got different varieties moving onto the wider stage now.
     
  12. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,890
    I agree with the OP that the commentators need to be specific about what kind of quad it is. When the first quad (toe loop) was performed, it was a novelty and most skaters were doing only quad toes - although I think there was a Chinese skater who was doing a quad salchow, and Tim Goebel's first quad was actually a quad salchow, not quad toe, and he did it as a junior first.

    The quad (4 revolutions) jump has been around since the 1990's (first landed in 1988 by Kurt B.). There is no reason why commentators cannot be specific about what kind of jump the skater landed, just like they do with the triples- toe/salchow/flip, etc. These days I think they are not even identifying the triples every time, which would educated an untrained viewer. They spend a lot of time talking about unrelated things. Educating the viewers by identifying the elements (not just the jumps) could help attract more viewers. I am digressing here.
     
  13. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    Messages:
    4,674
    :respec:

    Absolutely, Jun Y. And I totally agree with your observations too Skittl1321, even though it isn't very surprising that the media (especially general media who know very little about figure skating) continue to speak in "quad" terms as if it is a jump unrelated to other jumps when in fact it is simply an extra revolution and NOT a new kind of toe jump or edge jump. Just an extra revolution added onto established jumps. And of course because it is so difficult to perform that extra revolution and it occurs in a split second but requires enormous reserves of energy, mental training and effective strategy, it has turned the men's discipline upside down and sideways.


    ETA:

    I completely disagree with the poster who said that the ability to perform the quad separates top men skaters from so-called "second-tier." That simply IMO is not an accurate statement. OTOH, ability to perform quads for a variety of reasons is the determining factor in being able to win or place well in events these days. But it's way too complicated to say that skaters are not top level if they don't currently have the quad effectively in their arsenal. Even those who perform it well often have problems performing it consistently (and often end up with injuries related to the effort to train and perform it consistently). Trying to train, acquire and consistently perform the quad also leads many top level men to end up performing other jumps inconsistently (and this happens a lot due to rhythm problems, concentration, program layout and strategy), when in fact they were previously very consistent on all of their jumps prior to training the quad.

    What goes missing in all of this is the fact that what goes into making a skater top level is the ability to develop a multitude of talents, including blade control, fluidity, musicality, artistic presentation, athletic ability, good jump technique, good music selection, good choreography, connection with the audience, etc. Jason Brown IMHO is a top level skater up-and-coming. He mastered the 3-axel last season and he has been training the quad. He's a consistent jumper and performer overall, but what exponentially separates him from the average skater is his superb musical interpretation, an engaging movement quality that can't be taught, and magical knees (flexibility and amazing extension), as well as wonderful choreography beautifully performed.

    Adam Rippon is a top level skater who had some problems with jump technique on his 3-axel, which he has been able to correct under the tutelage of Rafael Arutunian. Not to mention that Adam is now mastering the difficult extra quad revolution on one of the harder jumps: the lutz. OP is right that many commentators missed explaining or mentioning the difficulty of the quad lutz. I wonder if any of the judges missed it as well. :p It's certainly hard enough to catch that extra split-second revolution as it is. Forget about realizing that the extra revolution is not all that goes into making a great figure skater or a great figure skating performance. In fact, the quad has turned out to quite often make great figure skating performances very hard to come by.

    There are a great many top level skaters past and present who don't yet and/ or didn't ever perform or consistently perform that extra confounding revolution. I say "Quad" be damned. Or since it won't go away, please stop making it the end-all and be-all. Place it in a proper perspective. The sport needs to focus on developing good technique among all skaters, and also focus on developing complete skaters who can combine artistry with athleticism, which is not about demonstrating constantly rushed movements this way and that all over the ice which bear little relation to the music. And it should NOT be all about that extra revolution either. If that is what the sport has become all about, then it is no longer about the art and sport of figure skating.

    Also, it's good to hear that Kurt B didn't miss the quad lutz significance. Kudos to Kurt for keeping figure skating fans enlightened and entertained with his spot-on commentary. :cheer:
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
  14. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2012
    Messages:
    2,694
    I always love Kurt's commentary. He is able to point out the little things we are unaware of.
     
  15. axel12345

    axel12345 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2007
    Messages:
    59
    Love Kurt's commentary. Love that he discussed the different kinds of quads and their difficulty. Also love that he mentioned that Dickson integrated Nijinsky choreography from The Afternoon with a Faun ballet. Love even more that he knew it was a ballet! He made lovey comments about Adam's deep gliding edges and that he could tell that Adam was using the entire blade because he could hear it! He also noted his speed and jump improvement, for me he did not banter on and on- he added to the visual and didn't say things that were distracting to us or personal to him.
     
    Sylvia and (deleted member) like this.
  16. paskatefan

    paskatefan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2006
    Messages:
    3,843
    :respec: :encore:
     
  17. centerpt1

    centerpt1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2007
    Messages:
    789
    ^^ THis.

    The focus on multi-quadding at the expense of a well rounded skating PERFORMANCE has really soured me on watching men's skating.
     
    Yazmeen and (deleted member) like this.
  18. Meredith

    Meredith what a glorious day!

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2003
    Messages:
    1,645
    Beautifully said, aftershocks. ITA. :respec:
     
  19. misskarne

    misskarne #ForzaJules #KeepFightingMichael

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,888
    But part of the fun of, for example, watching Max IS watching him skimming millimetres from the boards at breakneck speed, then doing a huge quad. That in itself is a performance from him.

    JMO.
     
  20. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Messages:
    3,422
    I don't know about that - wasn't it at worlds where he hit the boards in both the short and the long? It made me nervous watching him set up for the jump.
     
  21. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    11,324
    Sports always make me nervous. I worry for my team, I worry for my skaters. To me, being nervous about whether they are actually going to do the things they intend is what makes it a sport; I also worry about whether they'll do it safely (though honestly, football scares me more than skaters close to the boards; though some pairs lifts beat out football). But seeing him skim the boards like that- it is pretty impressive.

    I guess worry is what makes it sport for me: I never worry that the ballerina won't complete her 32 fouettes, even though it is a pretty athletic feat.
     
  22. Andrushka

    Andrushka New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2004
    Messages:
    3,114
    No it doesn't upset me.Because it's referring to the number of rotations. To me a clean quad jump is the equivalent of a homerun or a touchdown.A clean 3A being a close second to that.But then again,I think a champion without a clean 3A is a bit of a joke.
     
  23. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2003
    Messages:
    3,278
    I have to agree here, it seems all the men are concentrating on now is the quad instead of trying to put together performances that are diverse and have quality besides the jumps. There is more to figure skating than jumping, and the quad-obsessed are missing the rest of the beauty in the performances.
     
  24. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    14,040
    I disagree that the men are not trying to put together good performances. At Skate America, Machida had the quad and the best expressed program, IMO. That should be the ideal in men's skating.
     
  25. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    11,324
    I agree- I think the men are still trying to perform, and many succeeding. In fact, I think Aaron trying to perform is what is messing up his jumps, not the number of them in the program. Rippon added the quad lutz, and while it wasn't perfect, and I don't think his performance has suffered due to its addition.
     
  26. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    11,324
    But you are distinguishing a 3A from all the other triples, why do that if the rotations are all the same (though an axel is 3.5, so slightly different). Why say "the quad" if no one says "he's going for the triple!"
    Because the different jumps are different things.

    (And yeah, the triple-triple does get this too. A triple lutz-triple toe is so different from a triple toe-triple toe.)
     
  27. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Messages:
    3,422
    As others have pointed out, I think it's just a throw back to when skaters were attempting just one or two quads and they were usually the toe-loop.

    I wonder if the same happened when triples started to appear?

    In any event, whether the commentator says a quad lutz or a quad toe, unless you know enough about skating already to know the different names and their relative difficulty, calling them their proper names is not going to educate the person listening anyway. My partner can probably recognise the names of the different jumps from hearing me talk about them, but he wouldn't know which is more diffiuclt than the other even though i know i've explained it to him a few times in the past.
     
  28. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    14,040
    To be fair, the commentators also do this with the ladies - "she's going for a triple-triple!" They rarely distinguish between 3t-3t and 3z-3l for example.

    ETA: Oh, I see that was mentioned. I liked the way they described Lipinski's 3loop combo in Nagano. I was a new skating fan and didn't know what jump was what. They said this combination took off on one foot, landed on the same foot, and then without assistance from the other foot she had to launch herself into another triple. Despite not knowing what a triple loop was, I immediately understood how difficult and impressive that was. They could definitely do a better job distinguishing the jumps.
     
  29. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    11,324
    My husband knows that lutz and axel are hardest and toe loop and salcow are easiest. I don't think he'd be able to recognize any jump except axel (forward take off) and loop (jump and land on one leg).

    But you certainly don't learn them if the commentators never tell you. I've started to be able to better tell the difference from a flip and a lutz, because I've learned the entrances skaters take into them (if they do a telegraphed lutz, it's obvious)- but unless the commentators pointed out which was done, I could never see the edge difference.
     
  30. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Messages:
    3,422
    Also bear in mind that in pairs, they've more or less turned them into the same jump as throw flip and lutz have the same base value and for Zayak purposes you can't do a flip and and lutz - they're considered the same.

    Also another bug bear of mine is that all the twist lifts are marked as Lutz twist lifts on the protocols even though some skaters clearly do a flip entrance, and no-one ever seems to get edge calls on the throws or twists.