Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Fandango, Jul 23, 2012.
Irina's comeback from illness was heading into 06, not 02.
This just shows why they don't let folks judge from home.
Have you watched the video of Hughes FS lately? While she was a notorious under-rotater, in that particular skate all her jumps (except possibly the 3Loop on the end of the 3S combo) were fully enough rotated. Yes, the Lutz technique deserves a ding, but under the rules of the day (and even of today) the skater gets credit for the lutz even with the incorrect edge. There is no way anyone could justify a 5.5 technical mark for a ladies skate with 7 (or even 6) successfully landed triples, including two 3-3 combinations, good speed and attack, nice spirals, and a beautiful layback spin. There were really very few places anyone could take off on her technical mark in that particular skate.
IMO the worst ordinal of this event was Slutskaya not getting 1st in the SP.
still trying to get my head around TT and "sweet personality" used in the same sentence without the benefit of other words like "complete lack of" etc...
and by "work with" you mean "getting @#$%ed by" right
Thanks kwanette, for the correction re Irina's illness having occurred after 2002. My bad in not checking the date for accuracy.
Right you may be berthesghost re TatTot. I never met her in person, but she did seem to come off as shy (not necessarily equivalent to "sweet") in interviews, altho' that could have been because she didn't speak English well and/or was uncomfortable in interviews. I think I'll "fold 'em" re Vasiliev and TatTot's "working" or otherwise relationship.
Yes, I agree that Michelle and Irina were unable to overcome the pressure of their Olympic moments (weight of those rings, as some of you say likely being the major factor). Still, the arena was going wild for Sarah after she skated, so you add 4th place skater skating lights out in the fp, along with the "weight of those rings" ...
Re Slute not getting 1st place ordinals in sp, didn't she get some 1st place ordinals? She was just not first overall. If you like Slute best, I guess it's "worst" she wasn't 1st in sp and 1st in fp too. I don't see how Kwan being 1st overall in the sp is that debatable. But yeah, how could I forget, everything's debatable when it comes to fs.
Because most of us have no idea who the hell he is?
I mean, I sure didn't. He competed 21 years before I was born and I've never heard him mentioned before. Naturally, I know about Dick and Peggy and Katarina and all the other big stars who made a difference and are iconic in the sport, as well as skaters who maybe didn't medal as highly but were also very beloved and are talked about, but when a skater is never mentioned, even an Olympic Gold Medalist, why would anyone my age (or even many years older than me, as people who are currently 44 were born the year he won) know about them?
Um... so the fact that he was an OGM and won absolutely nothing else and absolutely no ever talks about him ever didn't make you at least suspect he might be "the most unbeloved" vs some of the recent skaters who while hated by some are loved by others and the debate rages on and on and on,.... ?
Plus all of the news about him being arrested for human slave trafficing was just a few years ago, and the "Tim Wood wuz robbed" story comes up every few years, so..
I think the standings in FS should have been: 1st - Hughes, 2nd - Kwan, 3rd - Cohen!
^^ In that scenario, wouldn't Kwan have won gold overall, and Hughes silver?
And Cohen bronze. I can't imagine a us sweep in slc would have gone down too well.
^^ Yeah true, altho' incredibly it did happen at 1991 Worlds: Yama/gold; Harding/silver; Kerrigan/bronze (largely because of Ito sustaining injuries from falling out of rink during sp, and then not being at full strength in the fp).
Of course, much less likely for one country sweep in one fs event to happen at an Olympics, but not unheard of I imagine if you look at all athletic events in both summer and winter Olympics. Haven't Russians swept gold in at least 3 of 4 fs events on several occasions?
I say, what an embarrassment of riches there used to be in U.S. ladies field internationally (now Japan has taken on that mantle).
I voted for S/P. I can't believe they asked to keep their silver medals too in addition to the gold.
Yama and Harding rocked Munich in a way kwan and hughes didnt imo. As iffy as kerrigan's bronze was, poor midori really was a hot mess. Cohen had a hard fall and combined with her shallow edges and poor ice coverage, I just don't see her out scoring irina or her voting block. As it was, the accusations of home court prejudice did fly.
IIRC, Harding did land a 3axel but also had several mistakes afterwards. Kerrigan was as much a mess as Ito and IIRC both landed 4 clean triples.
The voting block argument is right on. 2001/2 GPF anyone?
Since 1991, US's closest shot to a clean sweep was probably 1997 Worlds and 1998 Olympics. Bobek had skated surprisingly well at Nationals both seasons and could definitely medal if she kept up her form.
2001 was another close year but by that time Slutskaya had established a name for herself and it was not easy to knock her off the podium, especially since this was the year she had a great short program. 2003 and 2004 were easier years with Slutskaya's absence but by that time US no longer had a viable bronze contender.
Gone down well with whom? Irina's camp? They would have to get over it. It's true, how many other times have countries swept the medals and that's just how it is if they are the best. It's competition. Of course now, gymnastics is limited to where this will never happen again. Fair or not? That is the question.
They asked or they were allowed? I thought they were just told to keep them.
We see medals given, taken away, given back etc.. In swimming and gymnastics and other sports where subjective opinion is suppose to matter little to nothing. Skating? That's all it is. Subjective opinion.
Irina just barely lost gold in slc. Now I'm suppose to believe she could be totally off the podium and no one, not piseev, not speedy, not most euro media outlets, would have done anything but shrug and say "oh we'll, it wasn't her day"? Are we following the same sport?
No, they had to return the medals. Post-Olympics they asked for them back and were told no, Sale complained that they were probably sitting on somebody's fireplace mantel or something like that
I hate to read that, it really doesn't make me feel bad for them. I assumed they gave the medals back as soon as they got the gold. I never would have thought they (Sale) complained about not getting the silver medals back. They never thought they deserved them in the first place.
Yeah I don't get that. Why would you want to keep a piece of metal that is haunted? Although, they could want to keep them as memento's of their "actual" medal ceremony. That's the only reason I can think of. I was always under the impression that they got to keep both. I didn't know they sent the silvers back.
Actually, IMO, S/P and B/S as well as S/Z and the entire pairs competition (plus fs and fans of fs) were the victims in slc. S/P felt they skated great and deserved to win, but when it didn't happen although they weren't pleased, they accepted it because they had no other choice and skaters are conditioned to accept results however delusional they might be about their performances, or however unfair the judges might be in their scoring.
It was the media and the Canadian Federation complaints, and ultimately the corrupt judging and the IOC demands to "fix" the "fix" that led to the ISU awarding S/P with the second gold medal. Many of you guys act like you think S/P actually had clout in this situation or that they held up the IOC and the ISU by gunpoint. As far as S/P desiring to keep their silver medals, I think it was hard for them to go through the emotion of the first ceremony with their silver medals when they had expected to win. However, having gone through the first ceremony and having accepted the fact they won silver, I seriously doubt that S/P were completely on board with having to go through the second ceremony and were conceivably conflicted about receiving the gold in that after-the-fact way, especially because it put them and B/S in an awkward position. The judges' original decision had been made, however corrupted by behind-the-scenes dealing and post-judging controversy, and a media whirlwind ensued which S/P also had no control over. Plus by the time the ISU finally made the decision to reward double gold in the pairs event, S/P had probably gained some attachment to their silver medals. And since this situation was unprecedented, wouldn't you want to ask or wonder what in fact would happen to the silver medals you already had in your possession? Those silver medals should probably have been given to an International Skating Museum.
Bottom line: All S/P did was skate their best. They had absolutely no control over what happened before or after. The ISU didn't ask S/P if they wanted to trade in their silver medals for gold, they told them this is going to happen and you need to show up at such and such a time for the second ceremony, after which the ISU wiped the sweat off their foreheads, swallowed hard and got down to the business of figuring out how to overcome the far-reaching mess the judging scandal had created -- which of course led to IJS/ CoP and an even further far-reaching mess.
ain't that the truth!
That is incorrect. Judge #9, Joe Inman, told The New York Times and many other outlets he called it as he saw it, and put Slutskaya second because he thought she skated better than Kwan. That's what he said "on the record."
Inman's marks: Hughes 11.6 (5.8, 5.8), Slutskaya 11.5 (5.8, 5.7), Kwan 11.4 (5.6, 5.8) and Cohen 11.3 (5.6, 5.7)
The Russian judge, for comparison, voted: Slutskaya 11.7 (5.8, 5.9), Cohen 11.6 (5.8, 5.8), Kwan 11.5 (5.7, 5.8) and Hughes 11.5 (5.8, 5.7).
Slutskaya may have lost gold when the judging panel was decided. Inman was the final judge's name pulled out of the hat; the one judge left, a Ukrainian, was not seated and became an alternate. If there was an East v. West bloc, presumably, the Ukrainian would have gone with Slutskaya, making her the winner.
I also remember S/P jokingly said during the press conference after the decision of double gold that they hope they can also receive the bronze to complete the set. I'm surprised people didn't jump down their throats for that comment also.
Yeah I agree with emotional attachment to the silvers. It's awkward to have two medals for the same event. I'm sure they felt like they didn't really earn the gold and wanted to keep their "correct" medals, the silver. Even if the voting was unfair.
Sarah Hughes and Sale/Pelletier in any order by a huge huge margin for all the obvious reasons.
Nobody else comes anywhere near.
You are right, but how the heck did she manage to pull off not cheating her jumps on that particular day? Seems impossible.
Yeah but what was so outrageous wasn't so much Hughes winning in the FS (although I'd personally have Slutskaya 1st) but the SP placements.
Kwan had a weak SP. She clearly underrotated the 3flip, her timing was way off on the steps and Slutskaya should have easily beaten her as you said yourself.
Hughes should have been outside the top 10 after the SP.
Most of the ladies skated clean and between Hughes' huge flutz, shaky jump landings, weak posture, lack of stretch, toe-point and generally a pedestrian quality to her skating, her placing 4th in the SP was based on past results, politics and home skater bonus and not her actual skating.
I could live with Hughes winning the FS (like I can live with Lipinski winning the FS) but those SP placements were beyond awful.
I couldn't stand either Hughes or Slute but would rather have Slute ahead if it came down to that.
Both the 3sal and the 3loop in the first 3/3 were cheated, bad flutz and toe axel on the second combo, mule kick on 3flip, the 3loop of the 2nd 3/3 was cheated, OK the first 2axel and final 3toe were clean. Her flutz and flip were probably the best ones she has ever done but still flawed technique wise, I would definitely not say "There were really very few places anyone could take off on her technical mark in that particular skate.", especially since the first mark under the old system was about technical merit accumulation, and that kind of jumping technique and quality does not really accumulate much merit in my book. Her non jump elements, except the flying camel, were on par if not outright better than those by Kwan and Slutskaya. She skated with speed and complex choreography and that's why I think she deserves the highest second mark of the night. First mark? Not by a long shot.
By the way I am not saying the judges should have given her those marks. The judges under the same system gave Bonaly 5.8s and 5.9s for horrible and cheated jumps too. I wouldn't expect less of how they would treat Hughes. But then it's the difference of "what I feel they should do (5.5)" and "what I think they would do (5.8)".
Are you saying Lipinski should have placed lower than 2nd in SP?