Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Fandango, Jul 23, 2012.
Sarah didn't capitalize on her win at the insistence of her father, IIRC.
You can't get past something that is false? LOL!
....but he didn't say that.
Also, lack of respect? He's complimented competitors many times. He's even said Evan skated well in Vancouver.
Anyway, I haven't voted for anyone...I'm sure every champion is loved by someone.
I voted OTHER: Trixi Shuba 1972 Sapporo.
I don't know why she is not in the poll. Either I am too old or you know something I don't.
I think Sarah Hughes is the anti-favorite on FSU, with Evan Lysacek a close second. But in my opinion, both of those gold medals were 100% deserved and I am a big fan of both skaters as well as those particular performances.
My personal least favorite of the list is G&P. I think G&P's gold in 1994 should have gone to Torvill and Dean and their gold in 1998 should have gone to Krylova and Osviannikov. Just my opinion.
This is my opinion as well.
Make that 3.
i know of few people who don't like sarah who aren't associated with the fsu blog
I'm quite sure that with every skater/couple there are people who don't like them. But being disliked by some people (who certainly have their reasons for not liking them) doesn't mean these skaters are unbeloved. As the antithesis says, there's someone who loves them for sure.
I never liked G&P so very much either, but I'm miles from calling them unbeloved, because I know they have millions of fans. Still, I'm amazed and a little shocked how persistently it's stated that their OGM from '94 should have gone to T/D. I never thought that. To U/S, maybe, but I wouldn't say the gold for G/P was undeserved.
Sale/Pelletier and Hughes are a close tie...but watching this hilarious video again tipped me over the edge to vote for S/P : http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xk...ive-canadian-figure-skaters_fun?search_algo=2
I think a lot of people disliked Hughes for winning gold because she wasn't a gold-caliber skater, while the two most dominant figures in skating during these quadrennials (Slutskaya and Kwan) never won gold. I too thought she shouldn't have won gold that year, but Sarah was always a class act.
I never cared for his choreo or his "artistry" when watching on TV, but in person, he has a real presence on the ice. In between the jumps and the BS choreo, he has such command on his basic skating. There is both ease and power to it. Seeing him skate in person really gave me a new appreciation for why the judges seemed to love him so much.
but Sarah was always a class act
Just out of curiosity, why do you say that? For the record, I didn't vote in this poll.
Well as far as "most unbeloved Olympic championship wins" for me personally, I'd have to say Anett Potzsch of Germany; Grishuk/Platov whose pairing I was never fond of altho' they were excellent ice dancers -- I agree with those who posted earlier re the teams who they would have preferred win OGM over G/P; T/M in 2006 --great lines in the great Russian tradition, but zero connection with each other and the audience (although they both seem to have very sweet and kind personalities, for me they never quite reached the level of greatness that they had the potential for reaching -- so what that they won OGM, they never actually transcended boring skating). I also was never fond of Navka/Kostomarov's ice dancing -- I thought their OGM win was and obviously political.
I think Elvis deserved to win OGM in 1994 (especially since Boitano and Browning took themselves out of the running by not skating well overall -- Browning had the best choreographed free program). I wasn't unhappy for Urmanov medaling, because I like him. I was just confused about why the judges felt he deserved gold -- I think Urmanov was confused too, and he ended up unfairly paying for that premature win.
I think Michelle Kwan should have won OGM in 1998 (but that's history and a lesson still being learned) -- doesn't make me feel Tara is "most unbeloved" however. As far as Sarah H, I always thought she and her sister were pleasant to watch and talented overachievers, but the judges had shown in the '02 Olympic sp that they did not think that highly of Sarah's skating. The pressure was off for Sarah in the fp as she had nothing to lose. She went out there to enjoy herself and the moment which helped her a great deal. While she skated an "uplifting" program with abandon, she also underrotated her jumps which wasn't being scrutinized and marked down at the time. Ultimately, I feel Sarah's win was heavily influenced by the ongoing scandal that year in pairs -- the judges were on notice that a "perfect" skate would have to be rewarded. Otherwise possibly Slute or Kwan would have edged out the win in judges' overall marks. But granted that Kwan, Slute, and Sasha allowed themselves to be psyched out -- they all three faltered under nerves.
I don't remember "Schwarz" at all. The year Potzsch won over Fratianne, Dagmar Lurz won bronze. Don't remember Lurz at all either. In looking back at the list of winners historically, I find it interesting that in the 1970s and 1980s there were a lot of "forgettable"/ "forgotten" European skaters who were medalling at Worlds and Olympics.
I guess the popularity of these "forgettable" polls is just the fact of the off-season. I don't "unbelove" any of these champions as people, since I never knew/ don't know them personally. Altho' I never liked Navka's or Grishuk's personalities that I perceived from afar.
I always enjoyed and still enjoy watching Jamie and David skate (I only voted for them in this poll b/c I think they probably inspired this poll in many respects here on FSU). The votes S/P have received in those ubiquitous survivor polls here are very obviously for the most part "payback" by the fans who heatedly dislike them for all kinds of reasons which have been itemized with seeming malicious glee and with hypocritical justifications.
Case in point, the linked Saturday Night Live S/P parody (those SNL comics are a laugh riot). That just by looking at that old skit, a poster was prompted to vote for S/P in this poll is also hilarious.
Olympic Champions should not be getting 10th place ordinals.
Good point. I never considered Sarah's win to be influenced by the scandal, but it makes total sense.
It wasn't influenced by the pairs event. Irina had four 1st place ordinals in the long program. No one was making sure Sarah won anything. In fact, I believe a few judges had Sarah first and Michelle second, which would make Michelle the winner. I never understood why Irina's four 1st place ordinals were never a topic of discussion regarding the judging of the ladies event. Sarah should have had all 1st place ordinals for the long program and Michelle and Irina should have had 2nds and 3rds-I don't see how that can be argued at all. That whole event, if you look further into the results, was a mess LOL.
I believe if one more judge had Michelle in 2nd place, she would have won. I could be wrong though. I would like to see the ordinals again just to see how many judges actually had Sarah winning, placing her first, Irina second, and Michelle third. is there anywhere we can view?
Link wouldn't work for me cause I live outside of the U.S. Pity!
Sarah-1 4 3 4 1 2 1 1 1
Irina- 3 1 1 1 4 1 2 3 2
Mk- 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 2 3
judge #1 had MK as the overall winner
judge#2 had Irina as the overall winner
Judge#3 had Irina as the oveall winner
Judge #4 had Irina as the overall winner
Judge #5 had MK as the overall winner
Judge #6 had irina as the overall winner
Judge #7 had Sarah as the overall winner
Judge #8 had MK as the overall winner
Judge #9 had Sarah as the overall winner.
So Michelle had 3 judges place her as the winner of the competition
Irina had 4
Sarah actually only had two because out of the five judges that ranked her 1st in the LP,3 of them had MK in second which would have make her the winner.
If I did this correctly. So no one was trying to make sure she won. She just ended up winning.It actually looks to me like judges 2-4 were trying to ensure that Irina won, putting her first and Sara 3rd or 4th.
Interestingly, three of the four judges that had Irina in 1st place had Michelle in 2nd place and Sarah third or lower.
Also here are Sarah's placements for the short program 6 10 4 5 5 5 5 4 4
judge #9 is the us judge who iirc went on record saying he put Kwan in 3rd to make sure Hughes won.
Sure, the Russian, Belarus and Slovakian judges who voted irina in 1st weren't trying to make sure sarah won, they were propping up irina.
Well, I guess what i am saying is that Sarah's win was not influenced by the pairs event. I remember reading all that "the judges got it right" blah blah blah but if you look at the ordinals out of the top three, she had the least amount of judges ranking her first overall.
This may sound crazy but I think my scores would look like this, if skate order is not to be taken into account:
The 5.5 for Hughes is really for the bad technique on the jumps and the flying spin, and of course the UR on the jumps. Everything else I actually much prefer her to Slutskaya.
Regarding the comments that "Sarah shouldn't have won because one score was 10th in the SP", it actually looks like it was the judge who was more out of line with their scoring: 6 10 4 5 5 5 5 4 4
5th wouldn't have been good enough to win overall, so
Actually, that is not what I said. I said Olympic Champions should not be getting 10th place ordinals. It is just kind of crazy to me that the winner of the competition had a 10th place ordinal.
Yeah, the numbers (scores/ ordinals under 6.0) are always interesting. And of course we can't actually know what was in each judges' mind, but without a doubt what happened in pairs really did haunt the rest of the event. You can be sure the ISU had something to say to all the judges in all the remaining fs events after the pairs scandal hit. Probably it went something to the effect: "All fixes are off!" IMO, Anissina/ Peizerat shouldn't have needed anybody to fix anything -- they were too amazing, but we all know there was something going on re Quid Pro Quo scoring (as there often has been in fs historically). Of course what the skaters do on the ice always had to be factored in too. Under IJS/CoP what the skaters do on the ice really seems to matter much less (in some events) especially since the judges are now anonymous.
Yep, I think there was a bloc definitely going to hold up Irina no matter what. So, in the judges' minds (tho' of course I can't read 'em ) IMO all things being equal (IOW, Irina and Kwanita skating up to their ability), the judges likely felt it would come down between the Kween and apple-cheeked Irina who was favored in the lead-up to '02 Olympics for her power skating and comeback from illness. Sasha was in the mix, but she hadn't ever shown any signs she was ever going to land all her jumps under pressure. Obviously, from sp results, Sarah was not a gold medal winner (or even a medal winner) in the majority of judges' eyes -- apparent from her sp marks.
IMO, it was always going to come down between Kween and Slute for gold, but then sassy Sarah went for broke having nothing to lose, and it kinda sent shockwaves through the remaining top competitors (and through judges as well, since they now weren't too sure what to do, except to give at least the appearance of fairness). The top 3 ladies did seem as if they were in some kind of shock after Sarah skated, since none of them looked like they had their legs underneath them in their free programs. Judges were probably a bit nonplussed re scoring*, as Sarah's skate plus specter of the pairs scandal kinda threw a wrench into the proceedings. Judges would have loved to give it to Irina after Kween's tense stumble with hands down and feet sliding out from under her, but Irina skated mostly like a figment of her real self. Kwan's stumble knocked the edge off her nerves, and she skated very well thereafter, but it was too late. If it had just been a minor step-out on a jump landing (a la Anton S), there may have been a slight chance for the crazy fluctuation in marks for all the top skaters to have moved farther in Kwan's direction -- surely an outright fall by Irina instead of just sloppy skating might have made somewhat of a difference in Kween's favor because altho' Sarah skated lights out in the fp, she was not a judges' favorite and had come in 4th in sp. So, there would have been less chance for questioning Sarah not winning gold for a perfect free skate if Slute had fallen, and Kwan had stumbled/fell more like Yama did in '92 .
FS -- endlessly fascinating -- so many hilarious, logic-defying scenarios.
* if only they had realized it was possible to take something off for Sarah's underrotations!
Yah, would it have killed them to crack a smile? Maybe it was from working with Vasiliev, yawn..
^^ Yeah sure, tho' T/M do seem to have a fan following, and in interviews a little small bit of their sweet personalities show but always held in check on the ice (maybe due to the both of them being essentially shy?).
Ya prob'ly got it right tho' re having to work with Vasiliev. I did kinda wonder why V/V didn't make this poll too.
I don't think Sarah skating well was a surprise at ALL. Sarah had landed 6-7 triples (well, "triples") in pretty much every freeskate going on two years at that point. Of course, the second 3/3 was an added bonus, but Kwan and Slute (and the judges) were used to Hughes delivering. I'm sure the judges still expected one or both of Kwan/Slute to step up and skate a great long. It's only speculation of course, but in my mind it was the weight of the Olympic rings and the pressure of the OGM that weighed down on the two of them and it probably had very little to do with Sarah's skate.
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