The most "unbeloved" Olympic Champion(s) - what do you think?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Fandango, Jul 23, 2012.

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Most "unbeloved" Olympic Champions, iyho???

Poll closed Aug 2, 2012.
  1. Tara Lipinski - 1998

    8.0%
  2. Sarah Hughes - 2002

    26.1%
  3. Sale & Pelletier - 2002

    25.3%
  4. Totmiannina & Marinin - 2006

    4.0%
  5. Gritschuk & Platov - 1994

    4.0%
  6. Viktor Petrenko - 1992

    0.3%
  7. Alexei Urmanov - 1994

    8.0%
  8. Evgeny Plushenko - 2006

    4.8%
  9. Evan Lysacek - 2010

    13.1%
  10. OTHER! Please state, and please forgive, if I didn't mention someome/somthing remarkable!

    6.5%
  1. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    judge #9 is the us judge who iirc went on record saying he put Kwan in 3rd to make sure Hughes won.

    Sure, the Russian, Belarus and Slovakian judges who voted irina in 1st weren't trying to make sure sarah won, they were propping up irina.
  2. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    Well, I guess what i am saying is that Sarah's win was not influenced by the pairs event. I remember reading all that "the judges got it right" blah blah blah but if you look at the ordinals out of the top three, she had the least amount of judges ranking her first overall.
  3. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    This may sound crazy but I think my scores would look like this, if skate order is not to be taken into account:

    Kwan 5.6/5.8
    Hughes 5.5/5.8
    Slutskaya 5.7/5.6
    Suguri 5.6/5.6

    The 5.5 for Hughes is really for the bad technique on the jumps and the flying spin, and of course the UR on the jumps. Everything else I actually much prefer her to Slutskaya.
  4. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    Regarding the comments that "Sarah shouldn't have won because one score was 10th in the SP", it actually looks like it was the judge who was more out of line with their scoring: 6 10 4 5 5 5 5 4 4
  5. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    5th wouldn't have been good enough to win overall, so :shuffle:
  6. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    Actually, that is not what I said. I said Olympic Champions should not be getting 10th place ordinals. It is just kind of crazy to me that the winner of the competition had a 10th place ordinal.
  7. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, the numbers (scores/ ordinals under 6.0) are always interesting. And of course we can't actually know what was in each judges' mind, but without a doubt what happened in pairs really did haunt the rest of the event. You can be sure the ISU had something to say to all the judges in all the remaining fs events after the pairs scandal hit. Probably it went something to the effect: "All fixes are off!" :lol: IMO, Anissina/ Peizerat shouldn't have needed anybody to fix anything -- they were too amazing, but we all know there was something going on re Quid Pro Quo scoring (as there often has been in fs historically). Of course what the skaters do on the ice always had to be factored in too. Under IJS/CoP what the skaters do on the ice really seems to matter much less (in some events) especially since the judges are now anonymous. :rofl:

    Yep, I think there was a bloc definitely going to hold up Irina no matter what. So, in the judges' minds (tho' of course I can't read 'em ;)) IMO all things being equal (IOW, Irina and Kwanita skating up to their ability), the judges likely felt it would come down between the Kween and apple-cheeked Irina who was favored in the lead-up to '02 Olympics for her power skating and comeback from illness. Sasha was in the mix, but she hadn't ever shown any signs she was ever going to land all her jumps under pressure. Obviously, from sp results, Sarah was not a gold medal winner (or even a medal winner) in the majority of judges' eyes -- apparent from her sp marks.

    IMO, it was always going to come down between Kween and Slute for gold, but then sassy Sarah went for broke having nothing to lose, and it kinda sent shockwaves through the remaining top competitors (and through judges as well, since they now weren't too sure what to do, except to give at least the appearance of fairness). The top 3 ladies did seem as if they were in some kind of shock after Sarah skated, since none of them looked like they had their legs underneath them in their free programs. Judges were probably a bit nonplussed re scoring*, as Sarah's skate plus specter of the pairs scandal kinda threw a wrench into the proceedings. Judges would have loved to give it to Irina after Kween's tense stumble with hands down and feet sliding out from under her, but Irina skated mostly like a figment of her real self. Kwan's stumble knocked the edge off her nerves, and she skated very well thereafter, but it was too late. If it had just been a minor step-out on a jump landing (a la Anton S), there may have been a slight chance for the crazy fluctuation in marks for all the top skaters to have moved farther in Kwan's direction -- surely an outright fall by Irina instead of just sloppy skating might have made somewhat of a difference in Kween's favor because altho' Sarah skated lights out in the fp, she was not a judges' favorite and had come in 4th in sp. So, there would have been less chance for questioning Sarah not winning gold for a perfect free skate if Slute had fallen, and Kwan had stumbled/fell more like Yama did in '92 ;).

    FS -- endlessly fascinating -- so many hilarious, logic-defying scenarios.

    * if only they had realized it was possible to take something off for Sarah's underrotations!
  8. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    Yah, would it have killed them to crack a smile? Maybe it was from working with Vasiliev, yawn..
  9. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Yeah sure, tho' T/M do seem to have a fan following, and in interviews a little small bit of their sweet personalities show but always held in check on the ice (maybe due to the both of them being essentially shy?).

    Ya prob'ly got it right tho' re having to work with Vasiliev. I did kinda wonder why V/V didn't make this poll too.
  10. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    I don't think Sarah skating well was a surprise at ALL. Sarah had landed 6-7 triples (well, "triples") in pretty much every freeskate going on two years at that point. Of course, the second 3/3 was an added bonus, but Kwan and Slute (and the judges) were used to Hughes delivering. I'm sure the judges still expected one or both of Kwan/Slute to step up and skate a great long. It's only speculation of course, but in my mind it was the weight of the Olympic rings and the pressure of the OGM that weighed down on the two of them and it probably had very little to do with Sarah's skate.
  11. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    Irina's comeback from illness was heading into 06, not 02.
  12. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    This just shows why they don't let folks judge from home.

    Have you watched the video of Hughes FS lately? While she was a notorious under-rotater, in that particular skate all her jumps (except possibly the 3Loop on the end of the 3S combo) were fully enough rotated. Yes, the Lutz technique deserves a ding, but under the rules of the day (and even of today) the skater gets credit for the lutz even with the incorrect edge. There is no way anyone could justify a 5.5 technical mark for a ladies skate with 7 (or even 6) successfully landed triples, including two 3-3 combinations, good speed and attack, nice spirals, and a beautiful layback spin. There were really very few places anyone could take off on her technical mark in that particular skate.

    IMO the worst ordinal of this event was Slutskaya not getting 1st in the SP.
  13. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    :eek: still trying to get my head around TT and "sweet personality" used in the same sentence without the benefit of other words like "complete lack of" etc...

    and by "work with" you mean "getting @#$%ed by" right :rofl:
  14. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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  15. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Thanks kwanette, for the correction re Irina's illness having occurred after 2002. My bad in not checking the date for accuracy.

    Right you may be berthesghost re TatTot. I never met her in person, but she did seem to come off as shy (not necessarily equivalent to "sweet") in interviews, altho' that could have been because she didn't speak English well and/or was uncomfortable in interviews. I think I'll "fold 'em" re Vasiliev and TatTot's "working" or otherwise relationship. ;)

    Yes, I agree that Michelle and Irina were unable to overcome the pressure of their Olympic moments (weight of those rings, as some of you say likely being the major factor). Still, the arena was going wild for Sarah after she skated, so you add 4th place skater skating lights out in the fp, along with the "weight of those rings" ...

    Re Slute not getting 1st place ordinals in sp, didn't she get some 1st place ordinals? She was just not first overall. If you like Slute best, I guess it's "worst" she wasn't 1st in sp and 1st in fp too. I don't see how Kwan being 1st overall in the sp is that debatable. But yeah, how could I forget, everything's debatable when it comes to fs. :D
  16. michiruwater

    michiruwater Well-Known Member

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    Because most of us have no idea who the hell he is?

    I mean, I sure didn't. He competed 21 years before I was born and I've never heard him mentioned before. Naturally, I know about Dick and Peggy and Katarina and all the other big stars who made a difference and are iconic in the sport, as well as skaters who maybe didn't medal as highly but were also very beloved and are talked about, but when a skater is never mentioned, even an Olympic Gold Medalist, why would anyone my age (or even many years older than me, as people who are currently 44 were born the year he won) know about them?
  17. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Um... so the fact that he was an OGM and won absolutely nothing else and absolutely no ever talks about him ever didn't make you at least suspect he might be "the most unbeloved" vs some of the recent skaters who while hated by some are loved by others and the debate rages on and on and on,.... ?

    Plus all of the news about him being arrested for human slave trafficing was just a few years ago, and the "Tim Wood wuz robbed" story comes up every few years, so.. :shuffle:
  18. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    :lol:

    I think the standings in FS should have been: 1st - Hughes, 2nd - Kwan, 3rd - Cohen!
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2012
  19. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ In that scenario, wouldn't Kwan have won gold overall, and Hughes silver?
  20. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    And Cohen bronze. I can't imagine a us sweep in slc would have gone down too well.
  21. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Yeah true, altho' incredibly it did happen at 1991 Worlds: Yama/gold; Harding/silver; Kerrigan/bronze (largely because of Ito sustaining injuries from falling out of rink during sp, and then not being at full strength in the fp).

    Of course, much less likely for one country sweep in one fs event to happen at an Olympics, but not unheard of I imagine if you look at all athletic events in both summer and winter Olympics. Haven't Russians swept gold in at least 3 of 4 fs events on several occasions?

    I say, what an embarrassment of riches there used to be in U.S. ladies field internationally (now Japan has taken on that mantle).
  22. mkats

    mkats New Member

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    I voted for S/P. I can't believe they asked to keep their silver medals too in addition to the gold.
  23. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Yama and Harding rocked Munich in a way kwan and hughes didnt imo. As iffy as kerrigan's bronze was, poor midori really was a hot mess. Cohen had a hard fall and combined with her shallow edges and poor ice coverage, I just don't see her out scoring irina or her voting block. As it was, the accusations of home court prejudice did fly.
  24. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    IIRC, Harding did land a 3axel but also had several mistakes afterwards. Kerrigan was as much a mess as Ito and IIRC both landed 4 clean triples.

    The voting block argument is right on. 2001/2 GPF anyone? :scream:

    Since 1991, US's closest shot to a clean sweep was probably 1997 Worlds and 1998 Olympics. Bobek had skated surprisingly well at Nationals both seasons and could definitely medal if she kept up her form.

    2001 was another close year but by that time Slutskaya had established a name for herself and it was not easy to knock her off the podium, especially since this was the year she had a great short program. 2003 and 2004 were easier years with Slutskaya's absence but by that time US no longer had a viable bronze contender.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2012
  25. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    Gone down well with whom? Irina's camp? They would have to get over it. :lol: It's true, how many other times have countries swept the medals and that's just how it is if they are the best. It's competition. Of course now, gymnastics is limited to where this will never happen again. Fair or not? That is the question.


    They asked or they were allowed? I thought they were just told to keep them.
  26. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    We see medals given, taken away, given back etc.. In swimming and gymnastics and other sports where subjective opinion is suppose to matter little to nothing. Skating? That's all it is. Subjective opinion.

    Irina just barely lost gold in slc. Now I'm suppose to believe she could be totally off the podium and no one, not piseev, not speedy, not most euro media outlets, would have done anything but shrug and say "oh we'll, it wasn't her day"? :lol: Are we following the same sport? :p
  27. mkats

    mkats New Member

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    No, they had to return the medals. Post-Olympics they asked for them back and were told no, Sale complained that they were probably sitting on somebody's fireplace mantel or something like that :rolleyes:
  28. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    :( I hate to read that, it really doesn't make me feel bad for them. I assumed they gave the medals back as soon as they got the gold. I never would have thought they (Sale) complained about not getting the silver medals back. They never thought they deserved them in the first place. :slinkaway
  29. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I don't get that. Why would you want to keep a piece of metal that is haunted? Although, they could want to keep them as memento's of their "actual" medal ceremony. That's the only reason I can think of. I was always under the impression that they got to keep both. I didn't know they sent the silvers back.
  30. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Actually, IMO, S/P and B/S as well as S/Z and the entire pairs competition (plus fs and fans of fs) were the victims in slc. S/P felt they skated great and deserved to win, but when it didn't happen although they weren't pleased, they accepted it because they had no other choice and skaters are conditioned to accept results however delusional they might be about their performances, or however unfair the judges might be in their scoring.

    It was the media and the Canadian Federation complaints, and ultimately the corrupt judging and the IOC demands to "fix" the "fix" that led to the ISU awarding S/P with the second gold medal. Many of you guys act like you think S/P actually had clout in this situation or that they held up the IOC and the ISU by gunpoint. :lol: As far as S/P desiring to keep their silver medals, I think it was hard for them to go through the emotion of the first ceremony with their silver medals when they had expected to win. However, having gone through the first ceremony and having accepted the fact they won silver, I seriously doubt that S/P were completely on board with having to go through the second ceremony and were conceivably conflicted about receiving the gold in that after-the-fact way, especially because it put them and B/S in an awkward position. The judges' original decision had been made, however corrupted by behind-the-scenes dealing and post-judging controversy, and a media whirlwind ensued which S/P also had no control over. Plus by the time the ISU finally made the decision to reward double gold in the pairs event, S/P had probably gained some attachment to their silver medals. And since this situation was unprecedented, wouldn't you want to ask or wonder what in fact would happen to the silver medals you already had in your possession? Those silver medals should probably have been given to an International Skating Museum.

    Bottom line: All S/P did was skate their best. They had absolutely no control over what happened before or after. The ISU didn't ask S/P if they wanted to trade in their silver medals for gold, they told them this is going to happen and you need to show up at such and such a time for the second ceremony, after which the ISU wiped the sweat off their foreheads, swallowed hard and got down to the business of figuring out how to overcome the far-reaching mess the judging scandal had created -- which of course led to IJS/ CoP and an even further far-reaching mess.
  31. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    ain't that the truth!
  32. nylynnr

    nylynnr Active Member

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    That is incorrect. Judge #9, Joe Inman, told The New York Times and many other outlets he called it as he saw it, and put Slutskaya second because he thought she skated better than Kwan. That's what he said "on the record."

    Inman's marks: Hughes 11.6 (5.8, 5.8), Slutskaya 11.5 (5.8, 5.7), Kwan 11.4 (5.6, 5.8) and Cohen 11.3 (5.6, 5.7)

    The Russian judge, for comparison, voted: Slutskaya 11.7 (5.8, 5.9), Cohen 11.6 (5.8, 5.8), Kwan 11.5 (5.7, 5.8) and Hughes 11.5 (5.8, 5.7).

    Slutskaya may have lost gold when the judging panel was decided. Inman was the final judge's name pulled out of the hat; the one judge left, a Ukrainian, was not seated and became an alternate. If there was an East v. West bloc, presumably, the Ukrainian would have gone with Slutskaya, making her the winner.
  33. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

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    I also remember S/P jokingly said during the press conference after the decision of double gold that they hope they can also receive the bronze to complete the set. I'm surprised people didn't jump down their throats for that comment also.
  34. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I agree with emotional attachment to the silvers. It's awkward to have two medals for the same event. I'm sure they felt like they didn't really earn the gold and wanted to keep their "correct" medals, the silver. Even if the voting was unfair.
  35. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Sarah Hughes and Sale/Pelletier in any order by a huge huge margin for all the obvious reasons.

    Nobody else comes anywhere near.
  36. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    You are right, but how the heck did she manage to pull off not cheating her jumps on that particular day? Seems impossible.
  37. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Yeah but what was so outrageous wasn't so much Hughes winning in the FS (although I'd personally have Slutskaya 1st) but the SP placements.

    Kwan had a weak SP. She clearly underrotated the 3flip, her timing was way off on the steps and Slutskaya should have easily beaten her as you said yourself.

    Hughes should have been outside the top 10 after the SP.

    Most of the ladies skated clean and between Hughes' huge flutz, shaky jump landings, weak posture, lack of stretch, toe-point and generally a pedestrian quality to her skating, her placing 4th in the SP was based on past results, politics and home skater bonus and not her actual skating.

    I could live with Hughes winning the FS (like I can live with Lipinski winning the FS) but those SP placements were beyond awful.
  38. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I couldn't stand either Hughes or Slute but would rather have Slute ahead if it came down to that. :drama:
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  39. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Both the 3sal and the 3loop in the first 3/3 were cheated, bad flutz and toe axel on the second combo, mule kick on 3flip, the 3loop of the 2nd 3/3 was cheated, OK the first 2axel and final 3toe were clean. Her flutz and flip were probably the best ones she has ever done but still flawed technique wise, I would definitely not say "There were really very few places anyone could take off on her technical mark in that particular skate.", especially since the first mark under the old system was about technical merit accumulation, and that kind of jumping technique and quality does not really accumulate much merit in my book. Her non jump elements, except the flying camel, were on par if not outright better than those by Kwan and Slutskaya. She skated with speed and complex choreography and that's why I think she deserves the highest second mark of the night. First mark? Not by a long shot.

    By the way I am not saying the judges should have given her those marks. The judges under the same system gave Bonaly 5.8s and 5.9s for horrible and cheated jumps too. I wouldn't expect less of how they would treat Hughes. But then it's the difference of "what I feel they should do (5.5)" and "what I think they would do (5.8)".
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2012
  40. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying Lipinski should have placed lower than 2nd in SP?