The Kings of Quad

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by umronnie, Jun 19, 2012.

  1. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2011
    Messages:
    474
    ^^ Any video of it clean in practice?
  2. kukkura

    kukkura Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2007
    Messages:
    110
    Do we have a quad estimate for Li Chengjiang? He skated in international competitions for over a decade and had a solid 4t.
  3. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    828
    Updates quad count after Euros (remember, only international competitions count):

    1 Joubert – 98
    2 Plushenko (as long as he hadn't announced his retirement he's still on the list) – 94
    3 Menshov – 46
    4 Fernandez – 37 (moved up from 5 with that amazing FS, subject to change after 4CC)
    5 Reynolds – 36
    6 Voronov – 34
    7 Verner – 28
    8 Chan – 27
    9 Takahashi – 26
  4. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    1,648
    If only Sasha tried it at several competitions...
  5. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,883
    Whee for Joubert at 98!

    While watching Euros and US Nats this weekend, I was wondering if anyone has ever tried two quads in the second half of the program. Max Aaron did both 3axels (in fact six jumping passes!) in the second half of his program, but both quads in the first part. I think Fernandez, Chan, and Joubert attempt/have attempted a quad in the second half (Goebel too, IIRC, and that was pre-bonus), but has anyone ever tried two quads in the second half? I wonder if we'll ever see it. It would take a tremendous amount of energy.
  6. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    828
    ^^^
    I haven't checked that, but I doubt anyone has. It would be incredibly risky to put both quads in the second half. It is risky enough to try one quad in the second half. Although I believe that when doing 3 quads the third one is usually in the second half – partly for bonus and partly because doing 3 quads back to back is probably even more exhausting.

    But, since I have some more interesting data in my spreadsheet I can tell you how many 2- and 3-quad programs our protagonists attempted (I think for this purpose the attempt itself is more important than the result):

    Menshov: 16 2-quad programs
    Plushenko: 15 2-quad programs
    Joubert: 11 2-quad long programs, 1 2-quad short, 1 3-quad long (13)
    Reynolds: 7 2-quad programs, 2 2-quad short, 3 3-quad long (12)
    Fernandez: 7 2-quad programs, 2 3-quad long (10)
    Chan: 10 2-quad programs
    Takahashi: 5 2-quad programs
    Verner: 3 2-quad programs

    BTW, I believe no. 10 on the quad list would be Gachinski with 17 quads. He had attempted 4 2-quad programs.Expect Hanyu (15) to catch him by the end of the season. Hanyu has done 2 2-quad programs.

    Other active skaters to try 2 quads in a program: Brezina (3), Hanyu (2), Amodio (1), Dornbush (1)

    There had been more multi-quad programs, of course (Lambiel 16, Goebel 7 and 6, Yagudin 10, also Honda, Sandhu, Zhang and Li, for whom I haven't collected any data).
  7. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,883
    Interesting! I thought Verner had attempted many more 2-quad programs, but I guess he usually pops rather than falls. Menshov at the top surprises me, I don't know why. Fernandez will surely shoot up the list for 3-quad attempt programs.
  8. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,878
    Joubert is next scheduled to compete at the Challenge Cup. We'll see what he can come up with there...

    At the rate he's going, it's beginning to seem quite likely that Javi will get to 100 at some point.
  9. Glacier cat

    Glacier cat New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2011
    Messages:
    139
    I'm more interested in a success rate than number of quad. Can anyone list? :watch:
  10. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    828
    see posts #7 and #49 upthread
  11. os168

    os168 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    869
    This is an amazing list, miles difference from the Olympics, thanks large part to Plushy's complaints and how COP can encourage better technical content when done right. (They neglected and messed up entirely with the ladies, but that is another thread.)

    Among the next generation of skaters, Hanyu is the one to watch for sure, him and Javier train together will light up the quads fireworks. What is so exciting is that he hasn't even reached his full potential yet. I didn't realize Gachinski had so many, but then his programs are usually devoid of decent transitions which sure makes things easier. Actually I thought the list is a bit misleading, because they are spaced out over a career, so those who had longer careers like Menshov, Plushy would naturally have more quads programs. However, if you account divide that by the years of career they had, to focus on quad density over a season, then you might come up with a more accurate reflection of the true quads meisters.
  12. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    828
    An interesting point. I was looking at the number of quads attempeted at US Nationsl - a competition not necessarily known for a multitude of quads. More quads were attempted at Omaha last week than at Vancouver 3 years ago! I checked out quad attempts at WC and OLY since the beginning of CoP and if you like, I can post those later.

    Actualy Plushy and Menshov are the same age - Menshov will be 30 next month. It's true that Plushy got an earlier start - but I guess that is due to rare talent. Same thing with Joubert and VDP - although Kevin is a year older they both broke out at the same time and skated for many years, but Joubert has landed 5 times more quads than VDP.

    Obviously you can't expect 18 year old Hanyu to have landed as many quads as 22 year old Fernandez, not to mention the old horses, but is looking at count per year fair? Some skaters get more opportunities than others - some get 1 GP invitation, some get 2 and manage the GPF, as well. One could miss a competition for illness or injury. Some attend a ton of Senior Bs and some prefer to skip 4CC. You can't land any jump if you're not competing.

    Anyway, here's the list of quads-per-year, going by whole senior careers (complete seasons off, like Plushy's semi-retirement or Takahashi's surgury, were not included in the count):

    Joubert – 98 quads over 13 seasons, average 7.5/season

    Plushenko – 94 / 13 / 7.2

    Menshov – 46 / 7 / 6.6

    Reynolds – 36 / 6 / 6.0

    Fernandez – 37 / 7 / 5.3

    Chan – 27 / 6 / 4.5

    Voronov – 34 / 8 / 4.3

    Gachinski – 17 / 4 / 4.3

    Verner – 28 / 8 / 3.5

    Takahashi – 26 / 9/ 2.9

    BTW, Yagudin goes 56 / 6 / 9.3...

    BTW2, Fernandez's (say that 3 times fast) career average is 5.3, but if we look at this season alone we will get 15 and there's still WC...
  13. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,878
    A few things:
    1. KvdP is two years older than Joubert and also had a head start on his senior career (competed at 2000 Euros & Worlds, when Joubert was still in juniors).
    2. Joubert's in his 12th, not 13th, senior season.
    3. Fernandez is in his 7th season but wasn't skating senior full time the first year or two, and only started doing quads in 2009-10, so the numbers are even more impressive. Chan didn't attempt any quads in his first few seasons, either.

    But it's certainly true that longevity is not enough for a skater to get up to a large number of quads.
  14. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    828
    Re 2 - You are right. Moving to 2013 mixed my numbers. It's 12 for both Joubert and Plush (hangs head in shame). So it's -
    Joubert 98 / 12 / 8.2
    Plushy 94 / 12 / 7.8

    Re 3 - That is correct for most skaters, even old Menshov. Actualy, for the bunch above, only Joubert, Plushenko and Reynolds started their senior career with a quad. Do you want me to count since their first quad attempt?
  15. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    828
    Updates quad count after 4CC:

    1 Joubert – 98
    2 Plushenko – 94
    3 Menshov – 46
    4 Reynolds – 39 (pulled back up from 5th)
    5 Fernandez – 37
    6 Voronov – 34
    7 Verner – 28
    8 Chan, Takahashi – 27
    10 Hanyu, Gachinski – 17

    Up next - Challenge Cup 22-23 Feb. Will Joubert break 100?
  16. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    828
    With 2 quads at the Challenge Cup (one 4T in the short, one in the free) Brian Joubert became the first man ever to land 100 quads. Congratulations, Brian!

    Next up – the world championship in March. Plushenko (#2, 94 quads), Menshov (#3, 46) and Voronov (#5, 34) won't be there. Will Reynolds (#4, 39) rotate all his quads? If he doesn't, will Fernandez (#5, 37) catch him? Takahashi and Chan are currently tied for #8 with 27 – who will break free? Will they pass Tomas Verner (#7, 28)? More after the break...
  17. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,878
    :cheer2: Joubert! It may not be the most important achievement, but it's still pretty neat and a testament to longevity, hard work, and willingness to push himself and take risks.

    Now if only someone would report on this somewhere more official, I'll finally be able to source that Wikipedia claim :)
  18. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2010
    Messages:
    4,891
    That is so awesome! Great job, Brian! The gap between top 2 and the rest is so eye-opening.
  19. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2001
    Messages:
    3,804
    Congrats to Joubert on reaching 100! Quads, that is, not his age :D
  20. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    1,967
    Joubert 98 / 12 / 8.2
    Plushy 94 / 12 / 7.8


    But you don't forget, Plushy had only 7 competitions( COR 2009, RusNat 2010, 2012, 2013, ECH 2010, 2012 and OG 2010) since 2006. ;) That aren't complet seasons :)

    BTW great job Umronnie! THX! Congrats to Brian!
  21. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    13,883
    Maybe someone could interview him about it for Europe on Ice, Golden Skate, etc? I wonder if Brian even knows. :p Or maybe someone could give him a little trophy at Worlds (along with Robin's MIA PSOTY award!).

    Allez Brian! :cheer:
  22. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,878
    I doubt he knows. When he tied the Euros medal record two years ago, he was asked about it and had no idea - and that's a much bigger achievement.

    As for the proposed award presentation... see here. :D Actually, I doubt I'll ever make it to any Worlds, and certainly not this season.
  23. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    828
    Well, I e-mailed the ISU and sent them my spreadsheet. I doubt they'd do anything with it, though.

    Just to demonstrate how big an achievement that is - 100 quads is more than the entire sqaud of Canadaian men did since 2001/2 (Joubert's first senior season), and that includes all of Reynolds', Chan's and Sandhu's qauds, plus the two Elvis landed at SLC. It is also more than the entire Japanese team did (probably ever), as well as the entire American team... Only the Russian quad-masters could accumulate more - together (and that even without Plushy).
  24. bltracy

    bltracy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2010
    Messages:
    2
    Hi umronnie

    I was super amazed by your tremendous work. Then I got a little bit interested in counting quads for Brian. At the beginning I just wanted to know how he got 100 quads in these years. However, after all the counting done, I found that there might be 2 more quads than 100.

    Here is my method.
    1) I checked all the ISU international competitions (GP EC WC OG) including 2 senior B events. Even though I still missed some events or programs since lack of videos or reports, such as QR at Worlds 2002 and 2003, QR at Euro 2002, SP at GPF 2002-03, and two programs at SA 2001. I am wondering if you could provide me some information about those events.
    2) I also used a pretty strict way to rule out the hard hand-down but not actual fall quads, such as 2nd 4T of FS at GPF 2006 (a couple of GOE-2), and some similar ones in his early career (4T in both FSs at GPF 2002-03 and FS at Euro 2002), as well as some obvious UR like the opening in FS of Trophee Lalique 2002.
    3) I'd also like to mention that I did not count international competitions such as Japan Open 2007, Marshall's 2004 and Campbell 2004.

    I am willing to send my spreadsheet and discuss further more with you.
  25. IceIceBaby

    IceIceBaby New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2009
    Messages:
    354
    This is a great achievement and I think Joubert should receive a some kind of official announcement for it from the ISU.
  26. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2001
    Messages:
    3,804
    {Raises hand in agreement} That would make two of us.
  27. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,878
    It would be nice if it was mentioned somewhere :) and for umronnie to get some credit for taking on this project and tracking all those competitions and jumps!
  28. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,559
    I would love to see Joubert recognised for this. Well done!

    Someone ought to tell Plushy, too...I'm sure he'd be first in line to congratulate him.
  29. Willowway

    Willowway Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2002
    Messages:
    1,612
    I think you could send the spreadsheet to Icenetwork (Mickey Brown, editor or Lynn Rutherford, writer) and/or IFS (Susan Russell) - I'd send it to both. I would think someone would do something with it, a little squib at least - it's a milestone after all.
  30. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,878
  31. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2012
    Messages:
    452
    You could also ask why the article totally failed to mention that a) Brian won with only a 0.12 margin on a guy who was 7th in US Nats and hadn't been in an international competition in, like, FOREVER and b) that his performance, while not bad, wasn't nearly enough if the other favorites at Worlds skated half as well as they can :rolleyes:
  32. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Messages:
    3,270
    Why would anyone bother to write all of that crap in article about Brian landing the 100th quad :rolleyes:
  33. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,878
    What Ant said - the article, and this thread, are about the skaters who've landed a lot of quads, not about the merit of people's skating at the Challenge Cup. Joubert's goal at the Challenge Cup was to work on doing two different quads in his programs, and it's nice that along the way he got #100.

    There is a mistake in the article, however - Joubert is currently ranked 11th in the world, not eighth. Unless they mean he moved up eight spots? I don't recall what his previous ranking was.
  34. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2012
    Messages:
    452
    I mentioned that because they continue in the article by noting that the Challenge Cup result and the fact that this victory helped him move up to 8th in the world (I can confirm that's what the article says btw ;)) should give him a confidence boost for Worlds. Given his actual performance at CC, was point was to say that probably not so much.....

    That being said, and to go back on track with the content of this thread, it's nice to see that his accomplishment of landing 100 quads in career is being recognized ;)
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2013
  35. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Messages:
    3,270
    So the throw away comment at the end of the article about the upcoming world championships should have been re-written to eclipse the actual subject of the article...okay....maybe you should email them and let them know :rofl:
  36. morqet

    morqet Active Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    947
    I think that's what they meant - prior to Challenge Cup he had 2233 points which I think would have put him 19th in the rankings.

    ETA: he's 8th in the season world rankings
  37. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2012
    Messages:
    452
    Or maybe they could not have made that thrown-away comment at the end?

    Anyway, I don't really understand why my comment is such a problem (apart from going off topic, for which I apologize) :confused:
  38. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,878
    But since he accomplished his stated goal (trying two quads, and he was close with the LP 4S) why wouldn't it make him feel good? If Kevin Reynolds can get the marks he did when landing three quads, I imagine that a similar skate (if h's up to it, and that's a big if) by Joubert should score very well. Final comment on the CC: Joubert's score was a shade higher than at last year's Challenge Cup.

    Anyway, as Ant noted, it's a throwaway comment in a brief report about the 100th quad :)cheer: to that). And I still think they should have credited umronnie in some way; considering the mentions of Plushenko and more importantly, Menshov, it's very clear that the information could only have originated from this thread.
  39. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    828
    Wow, that's. The Menshov-mention (say that 3 times in a row) is a dead giveaway. As I said, I wrote to the ISU and sent them my findings. I did mention Plushy, but not Meshov.

    I don’t mind not getting credit, I started this project for fun and I'm glad Brian is getting some kind of recognition, but – is this a reputable web site? It doesn’t seem very responsible to use data from an unaccredited, unsubstantiated fan website without some independent verification. OTOH, now Wikipedia can sight this article as verification for that claim on Brian's page(which I now see that they did).
  40. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,878
    It's the website of a regional newspaper for Poitou-Charentes and other parts of central France, so naturally they write about Joubert quite often. I believe it's a reputable publication, but they really should cite their sources.