The Kings of Quad

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by umronnie, Jun 19, 2012.

  1. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

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    Just a few quick notes, and I will try to check some more info later.

    Well, they’ve both been competing for 11 seasons (Plushy took 4 years off in the middle for necessary repairs ;-) and have similar (though not the same) success rate. Actually Joubert has competed in a couple more events than Plush. For all of his health problems he’s been healthier than Plush. Also, when Joubert began competing the quad was allowed in the SP. It wasn’t in Plushy’s first two seasons, so Brian had more opportunities.

    I have Plushy at 94 w/o that Finlandia comp. Assuming he landed a quad in the SP and one in the FS that would put him at 96 – the number Senorita found.

    It’s very difficult to predict. It would take years to accumulate a large number. A skater would have to stay focused, dedicated and healthy to do that. With the demands of CoP skaing, I’m not sure the latter is possible. Time will tell.

    Some older competitions are on youtube. Some I managed to dig up eyesight reports at various FS boards. I can’t land a quad but I can dig up info…

    The number 96 agrees with my data (I will compare yearly numbers later) but the sum of all the yearly numbers is higher than 100 – so I think either it is for all competitions, not just international ones, or it is the number of attempts. Oh, well, the search contiunues…

    Yeah, but it doesn’t actually say what happened.
     
  2. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    ^no it doesnt say, but he is supposed to have landed at least one quad there to comment sth like
    Thats why i posted it, i thought it was a help. The previous message has the results. Sokolova and Liashenko..ah..

    The data I found though are really not dated because they stopped in 2006, but probably they have counted his russian competitions too.
     
  3. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

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    I have updated the "quad files" in honor of the Europeans, coming in under 3 weeks. Our two old warhorses will be going head to head.

    Plushenko currently has 94 landed quads under his belt and Joubert has 96. It is unlikely that he will land the 4 he needs to complete the first one hundred in this competition (especially in view of his current training and coaching situation) but if he has a good competition he stands a chance to do it at Worlds. Plushy would need at least two competitions to complete his 6.

    If you remember (or you can go upthread) the closest skaters after Joubert and Plushenko were three retired skaters - Yagudin with 56, Goebel with something in the low 50s (I don't have all of his results) and Lambiel with 46.

    I have updated the files and added a few skaters I did not consider when I started this project. Would you care to guess who – of the skaters currently competing – leads the group charging after Joubert and Plushy?
     
  4. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to assume nobody is too close in terms of number of quads landed, but if I had to guess who had a relatively large number, then in addition to Takahashi, Chan and Reynolds whom you've already mentioned, I'd go with Fernandez, because he's been doing a fair number of quads the last few years; and Tomas Verner, because for all that he pops a lot of jumps, he has been around forever and he didn't pop all of them.
     
  5. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

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    Good guesses, Zemgirl, but you are not even close. I'll post updated numbers for Verner and Fernandez later.
     
  6. wingnut

    wingnut New Member

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    Amazing thread, great work going through all the stats!

    Pretty incredible to think that Plushenko and Joubert are so far ahead of everyone else. Really highlights how unique they are for competing at the top level for so long. It still boggles my mind that Plushenko first competed at Worlds in 98 and is still a relevant medal contender 15 years later. Can you imagine how many quads and/or World titles he could have had he competed more post-2006?

    Who has the highest success rate between the two of them?

    Also interesting about Elvis "only" landing 20-something quads yet having such an impact. I think the impact would be seen in his win percentage when landing the quad (at least in the 90s). The quad was his edge over the rest of the field. Without it he was hard to beat, but with it he was nearly unbeatable. At least that's how i remember it and that was certainly the mentality that pushed others to start doing it.

    Here's hoping Plushenko and Joubert can both cross the 100 mark before they retire (one would think next year).
     
  7. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    Interesting indeed - my guess would have been Plush by a mile, but Joubert has certainly stuck with it!

    As for Elvis and others whose main competing years were in the 90s, I think had there been more competition and more payoff, Elvis would have done more as would others. In those days it was a highlight, something to send them over the top, sort of like icing on the cake - now that it also results in big points, it makes sense to do them more often rather than just saving the effort for one jump in the LP.

    I thought Kurt landed the first quad in competition - a Worlds in the late 80s?
     
  8. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Quads weren't allowed in the SP until 1998-99.
     
  9. screech

    screech Well-Known Member

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    Kurt did the first ratified quad, but Urmanov landed the first in the Olympics. Elvis did the first quad in combination.
     
  10. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

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    Kurt landed the first quad in competition at Worlds in 1988. He landed a second (and much better one) at the Canadian Championships the following year. The second person to land a quad in international competition was Petr Barna at Worlds in 1989. (Kurt also landed a quad at 1989 Worlds but had a slight touchdown with his free foot so under the rules at that time it didn't count).
     
  11. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    Something happened in quad history at the 1997 Champion Series Final (precurser to GPF) - I think it was several quads landed in one competition? Those were the days - check out this lineup.
     
  12. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it was the first time that three ratified quads were landed in the same competition.

    Stojko landed the first clean quad toe-triple toe combination ever in competition.

    Kulik landed his own first clean quad in competition.

    Urmanov didn't set a record, but it was his first clean quad since 1992.
     
  13. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    Off topic I know, but that was an exciting event - my first live competition :) I remember entering the arena for the first time during men's practice, hearing the music and seeing the soaring jumps, and not believing that I was actually going to see so many great skaters compete in person - I had previously only been to shows. In the oft-shown footage of Elvis' quad combo, I can be seen in the stands.

    Happy memories!
     
  14. sk8indel

    sk8indel Member

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    I've been working on a stat project on men's quads (shameless self-promotion of Stat Project Thread) but here is all of my data. Joubert and Fernandez's quad attempts and points garnered for such in the last 3 seasons are included.

    Here's a spreadsheet of my data. There's a more concise overview after the pages of statistics.

    https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B_rf7DP1ug2HejY1NXJrNFBLcFE
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2013
  15. jjane45

    jjane45 New Member

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    The curious mind wants to know... :D

    Such a wonderful thread, thanks a ton!
     
  16. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    This isn't about quads, but does anyone know why there were only three (four counting Meno and Sand who WD) pairs and five dance teams in the competition, instead of the usual 6?
     
  17. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    You mean at the 1997 Champions Series Final?

    There wasn't "the usual 6" at the beginning of the series. It was "the usual one warmup group" -- which is 6 for singles, 5 for dance, 4 for pairs.

    Later, after the series was renamed Grand Prix, they added more pairs and dancers. There was also an elimination phase and a second free program for a couple of years. The format we have now didn't start until about 2002.
     
  18. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

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    I think 100 quads are about what the body can take. To land 100 you have to train - what? 1000? 5000? I have no idea. How many of those hard landings can a body take? Plushy is held together with wire and duct tape as it is, and Joubert has been missing more competitions in recent years for injuries. Had Plushenko gone on beyond 2006 I'm note sure he would have made it to Vancouver. Note that both Plushenko and Joubert are now on their 12th senior season.

    As for their success rate on the quad - Plushy is slightly ahead with 85% to Joubert's 81%.
     
  19. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

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    So now to the next skaters on the current quad-masters list. None of them has come close to Yagudin, yet, but some of them (I'm thinking Fernandez) may do it yet.

    From 9th to 4th (seeing as Jobert is #1 and Plushenko #2):
    9: Takahashi (age 26) - 26 quads, 55% success rate
    8: Chan (age 22)- 27 quads, 77%
    7: Verner (age 26)- 28 quads, 60%
    6: Voronov (age 25)- 32 quads, 91% (!) - did you see this coming?
    5: Fernandez (age 21)- 33 quads, 85%
    4: Reynolds (age 22)- 36 quads, 61%

    Now I challenge you again to guess who's #3 on the list.

    BTW, I have no idea who's #10. I have Hanyu with 15, but I'm sure there are other skaters with numbers in the 20s or at least higher 10s.
     
  20. screech

    screech Well-Known Member

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    Since he's making a 'comeback'... Sandhu? :p
     
  21. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    After mentioning Verner and Fernandez yesterday, I did start to think that Voronov, being a veteran and a jumper, might be on the list. No idea who's number 3, though. If he hadn't retired, I'd have guessed KvdP; as an alternate option, I'm going to go with Menshov, who's been around for years and does tons of senior Bs.

    Re Joubert missing competitions, that's not really due to training quads - some of these were because he was sick, last season's back injury came from a fall on a spin, and the foot injury in the Olympic season happened when he spiked his blade into his foot on a 3Lz in training.
     
  22. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

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    Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner! Menshov, who will be 30 next month, has landed at least 46 quads in international competition for a 84% success rate and is #3 on the current quad masters list. A pity he won't be at Euros.

    I say "at least" because I am missing data from some of his early competitions (such as NRW 2007 and Cup of Nice 2006,2004 – I don't think there are protocols or youtube clips anywhere. So he could actually be over 50, although early on his success rate wasn't so high.

    BTW, VDP was well known for his 3-3s and 3-3-3s, but he didn’t try too many quads. In his 13 seasons of competition he landed 19 quads at 70%. If he wss still skating, maybe he's be #10.

    I haven't looked at Sandhu. It's difficult to find data for old competitions and no data except youtube clips for competitions held under 6.0. Let's see if he actually makes it back first.
     
  23. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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  24. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Menshov wasn't at 2006 Coupe de Nice, but he finished second in 2007. The protocols for 2006 are actually available, but the link for 2007 doesn't seem to work.
     
  25. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

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    Surely a lot of people didn't see that coming either? For some FSUers this number must be mind bogglingly high compared to their version of reality?


    btw - Thanks for sharing these stats! It is all very interesting and makes the whole Menshov not going to Europeans thing even worse IMO.
     
  26. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    It can hardly be a surprise considering umronnie already mentioned Chan earlier in this thread, during the off-season (see below). At an average of about 10 quads per season (or 11, if the rest of 2013 goes well for him) he should catch up to Joubert and Plushenko in the season after the Olympics. That is, the Pyeongchang Olympics ;).

    I wrote earlier that I consider Yuzuru Hanyu most likely to get to 100, since in addition to being really good, he is so young; but on second thought, with two different quads, a high success rate and rules allowing for two in the SP, Javier Fernandez could do it, too - if he decides to continue post-Sochi.

     
  27. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I should have been more clear. I meant that some people might be shocked that Chan's success rate is 77%
     
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  28. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Keep in mind what umronnie posted on page 1: As for what I considered a landed quad - basically any fully rotated quad that the skater stood on. Turn-outs, step-outs and hands were accepted. Rotated quads so flawed that they received a -3 GoE, even without the fall deduction, I considered "incomplete" and not landed.

    So Chan's 77% "successful quads" could include quads with negative GOE and other mistakes. I think if only completely clean rotated quads landed on one foot were counted, Plushenko would be far ahead, because he rarely has any step outs or mistakes at all.
     
  29. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Of course, this applies to the other skaters too. I agree that if only rotated quads that would be considered clean by 6.0 standards - landed cleanly on one foot - were counted, Plushenko would likely be well ahead; Joubert sometimes steps out of his.
     
  30. Holley Calmes

    Holley Calmes Well-Known Member

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    I've been a fan of young Voronov for some time....I just haven't been writing about him lately-or about anything on here for that matter-too much work. I know Sergei has his shortcomings and he certainly isn't in the ballpark with Plushy and Jourbert...but I like the kid. OK, I don't like his costumes and choreography...I hated he left Urmanov. I think he could be a much better skater with other "packaging." I think he has heart, like my ultimate fave, Yagudin. And he's cute, too! That's always a plus.

    So I am so glad to see Mr. V mentioned. 91% ain't too shabby, as we say in the South.