The Kings of Quad

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by umronnie, Jun 19, 2012.

  1. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    Something happened in quad history at the 1997 Champion Series Final (precurser to GPF) - I think it was several quads landed in one competition? Those were the days - check out this lineup.
  2. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it was the first time that three ratified quads were landed in the same competition.

    Stojko landed the first clean quad toe-triple toe combination ever in competition.

    Kulik landed his own first clean quad in competition.

    Urmanov didn't set a record, but it was his first clean quad since 1992.
  3. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    Off topic I know, but that was an exciting event - my first live competition :) I remember entering the arena for the first time during men's practice, hearing the music and seeing the soaring jumps, and not believing that I was actually going to see so many great skaters compete in person - I had previously only been to shows. In the oft-shown footage of Elvis' quad combo, I can be seen in the stands.

    Happy memories!
  4. sk8indel

    sk8indel Member

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    I've been working on a stat project on men's quads (shameless self-promotion of Stat Project Thread) but here is all of my data. Joubert and Fernandez's quad attempts and points garnered for such in the last 3 seasons are included.

    Here's a spreadsheet of my data. There's a more concise overview after the pages of statistics.

    https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B_rf7DP1ug2HejY1NXJrNFBLcFE
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2013
  5. jjane45

    jjane45 New Member

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    The curious mind wants to know... :D

    Such a wonderful thread, thanks a ton!
  6. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    This isn't about quads, but does anyone know why there were only three (four counting Meno and Sand who WD) pairs and five dance teams in the competition, instead of the usual 6?
  7. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    You mean at the 1997 Champions Series Final?

    There wasn't "the usual 6" at the beginning of the series. It was "the usual one warmup group" -- which is 6 for singles, 5 for dance, 4 for pairs.

    Later, after the series was renamed Grand Prix, they added more pairs and dancers. There was also an elimination phase and a second free program for a couple of years. The format we have now didn't start until about 2002.
  8. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

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    I think 100 quads are about what the body can take. To land 100 you have to train - what? 1000? 5000? I have no idea. How many of those hard landings can a body take? Plushy is held together with wire and duct tape as it is, and Joubert has been missing more competitions in recent years for injuries. Had Plushenko gone on beyond 2006 I'm note sure he would have made it to Vancouver. Note that both Plushenko and Joubert are now on their 12th senior season.

    As for their success rate on the quad - Plushy is slightly ahead with 85% to Joubert's 81%.
  9. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

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    So now to the next skaters on the current quad-masters list. None of them has come close to Yagudin, yet, but some of them (I'm thinking Fernandez) may do it yet.

    From 9th to 4th (seeing as Jobert is #1 and Plushenko #2):
    9: Takahashi (age 26) - 26 quads, 55% success rate
    8: Chan (age 22)- 27 quads, 77%
    7: Verner (age 26)- 28 quads, 60%
    6: Voronov (age 25)- 32 quads, 91% (!) - did you see this coming?
    5: Fernandez (age 21)- 33 quads, 85%
    4: Reynolds (age 22)- 36 quads, 61%

    Now I challenge you again to guess who's #3 on the list.

    BTW, I have no idea who's #10. I have Hanyu with 15, but I'm sure there are other skaters with numbers in the 20s or at least higher 10s.
  10. screech

    screech Well-Known Member

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    Since he's making a 'comeback'... Sandhu? :p
  11. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    After mentioning Verner and Fernandez yesterday, I did start to think that Voronov, being a veteran and a jumper, might be on the list. No idea who's number 3, though. If he hadn't retired, I'd have guessed KvdP; as an alternate option, I'm going to go with Menshov, who's been around for years and does tons of senior Bs.

    Re Joubert missing competitions, that's not really due to training quads - some of these were because he was sick, last season's back injury came from a fall on a spin, and the foot injury in the Olympic season happened when he spiked his blade into his foot on a 3Lz in training.
  12. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

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    Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner! Menshov, who will be 30 next month, has landed at least 46 quads in international competition for a 84% success rate and is #3 on the current quad masters list. A pity he won't be at Euros.

    I say "at least" because I am missing data from some of his early competitions (such as NRW 2007 and Cup of Nice 2006,2004 – I don't think there are protocols or youtube clips anywhere. So he could actually be over 50, although early on his success rate wasn't so high.

    BTW, VDP was well known for his 3-3s and 3-3-3s, but he didn’t try too many quads. In his 13 seasons of competition he landed 19 quads at 70%. If he wss still skating, maybe he's be #10.

    I haven't looked at Sandhu. It's difficult to find data for old competitions and no data except youtube clips for competitions held under 6.0. Let's see if he actually makes it back first.
  13. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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  14. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Menshov wasn't at 2006 Coupe de Nice, but he finished second in 2007. The protocols for 2006 are actually available, but the link for 2007 doesn't seem to work.
  15. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

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    Surely a lot of people didn't see that coming either? For some FSUers this number must be mind bogglingly high compared to their version of reality?


    btw - Thanks for sharing these stats! It is all very interesting and makes the whole Menshov not going to Europeans thing even worse IMO.
  16. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    It can hardly be a surprise considering umronnie already mentioned Chan earlier in this thread, during the off-season (see below). At an average of about 10 quads per season (or 11, if the rest of 2013 goes well for him) he should catch up to Joubert and Plushenko in the season after the Olympics. That is, the Pyeongchang Olympics ;).

    I wrote earlier that I consider Yuzuru Hanyu most likely to get to 100, since in addition to being really good, he is so young; but on second thought, with two different quads, a high success rate and rules allowing for two in the SP, Javier Fernandez could do it, too - if he decides to continue post-Sochi.

  17. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I should have been more clear. I meant that some people might be shocked that Chan's success rate is 77%
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  18. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Keep in mind what umronnie posted on page 1: As for what I considered a landed quad - basically any fully rotated quad that the skater stood on. Turn-outs, step-outs and hands were accepted. Rotated quads so flawed that they received a -3 GoE, even without the fall deduction, I considered "incomplete" and not landed.

    So Chan's 77% "successful quads" could include quads with negative GOE and other mistakes. I think if only completely clean rotated quads landed on one foot were counted, Plushenko would be far ahead, because he rarely has any step outs or mistakes at all.
  19. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Of course, this applies to the other skaters too. I agree that if only rotated quads that would be considered clean by 6.0 standards - landed cleanly on one foot - were counted, Plushenko would likely be well ahead; Joubert sometimes steps out of his.
  20. Holley Calmes

    Holley Calmes Well-Known Member

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    I've been a fan of young Voronov for some time....I just haven't been writing about him lately-or about anything on here for that matter-too much work. I know Sergei has his shortcomings and he certainly isn't in the ballpark with Plushy and Jourbert...but I like the kid. OK, I don't like his costumes and choreography...I hated he left Urmanov. I think he could be a much better skater with other "packaging." I think he has heart, like my ultimate fave, Yagudin. And he's cute, too! That's always a plus.

    So I am so glad to see Mr. V mentioned. 91% ain't too shabby, as we say in the South.
  21. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Definitely. But the comment was about the 77% being surprising and contrary to reality to Chan's detractors (who often complain of his messy performances and mistakes). I was just reminding everyone what the criteria are for success in this thread. This means that 23%, almost one quarter, of Chan's quad attempts are failures (not rotated, falls, or otherwise earning -3 GOE), and the 77% that he lands could include some pretty big mistakes as long as he stands and rotates them. I'd say that sounds consistent with my vision of Chan and his quad.

    ETA: I also don't think this poll counts pops as attempts (correct me if I'm wrong), so if we include the number of anticipated quads in Chan (or anyone else's) program that he didn't try to rotate four times, his success rate goes down more.

    To be fair to him though, this count does not include Nationals, and I think he typically skates cleaner there. Plushenko and Joubert must have over 100 quads if we include Nats, also.
  22. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

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    Falls are not restricted to quads. I think Chan messes up his 3A as often as he messes up a quad. He also has a fairly large number of random falls. There was another thread (something about Chan) where I checked the number of falls in several prominent skaters' programs and Chan way ahead of others. I don't remember what it was about and the spreadsheet is on my other computer. In any case, 77% is very respectable and we wouldn't expect anything less from our world champion.

    No, popped jumps (3T, 2T or 1T) were not considered quad attempts for the sake of this project. However, looking over the spreadsheet I can tell you that Chan "did not attempt a quad" once in the past two seasons - the SP at SC this fall. This certainly goes to his credit.

    Only ISU competitions count towards this project. For one thing, it is not always easy to get data for national competitions (maybe for Canda it's on line, but not necessarily other nations). For another, natioanl judges are sometimes more lenient on rotation and on GoE, so they shouldn't count (just as the scores don't count towards world records). It is not only Natioanls that weren't counted - there's Russian Cup competitions, French Masters and other local competitions which I did not consider.

    Something else to note - of the top 9 (still searching for #10) there are 6 European guys, 2 Canadiand and one Japanese. For all the dominance of Japanese men, only Hanyu (who is very young) and Takahashi (who is very experienced - any very good) have a reliable quad. No American skater on the list.
  23. screech

    screech Well-Known Member

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    Chan's quad is one of his better jumps, so I'm not too surprised at his success rate there. If we were looking at triple axels, however...
  24. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I'd say all of his jumps are one of his best, except the 3Axel ;)
  25. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Note that Joubert, Plushenko, Menshov, Voronov and Fernandez all have better success rates, as did the retired Alexei Yagudin and Timothy Goebel.
  26. screech

    screech Well-Known Member

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    But we also have to remember, Chan did not start attempting quads in his programs until the 10/11 season - just over 2 years. So to have done as many as he has, and so well, is quite spectacular.
  27. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    My point was that his success rate, well certainly impressive, isn't as high as as that of the older guys' - so while the quad may be one of his best jumps, the numbers still don't suggest that he's stronger in this regard than certain other skaters. Considering how long some of these men have been doing quads, I'd argue that's more impressive than Chan's numbers; as I wrote earlier, it would still be years for Chan to get anywhere near the numbers of Joubert and Plushenko - and Yagudin's too, although the latter had a relatively short career.

    Among the younger guys, Fernandez started doing quads in 2009-10, and his success rate is quite impressive. Since he has two quads that he can do fairly consistently, he should have an easier time adding to his total than Chan.
  28. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Or step sequences.... :shuffle:
  29. screech

    screech Well-Known Member

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    The reason I pointed out that Chan has only been doing them for 2 years, is because the first few competitions, his success rate was (understandably) low. It's only been really consistent since Canadians 2011 (which isn't included in this rate). if you think that he's done 2 GP, GPF, Worlds, 4CC, and WTT, that's about 15-18 competitions (give or take) where he's landed almost 30 quads. I still see that as rather impressive.
  30. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Plush has 105-106 quads
  31. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. I remember the second free program, but I didn't remember that there weren't six skaters in every discipline. I actually miss the second free program thing since it was a chance to usually see the previous year's free program again, but I guess it was too tiring for the skaters.
  32. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

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    Plushenko's accomplishments in this sport are quite mind blowing really.

    His Terminator like ability to come back to Olympic competition is astounding. And that he is likely heading into his 4th Olympics with a very good chance of a medal is crazy.

    His strategy and determination in fighting through / skating through injuries is beyond inspiring, as are his competitive drive and his competitive nerves.

    And his owning the quad is - clearly - 2nd to none. Brian Joubert may be in the same ballpark for number of quads - but Plushenko was able to offer a much more complete package / more complete programs and win way way more times while doing about the same number of quads.

    I had the chance to see him at 2001 Worlds and at the 2010 Olympics and I am in awe of him as a skater, as an athlete and as a human. When I watch him skate t is with a deep respect and appreciation.

    However, for those who hold up these quad statistics (and even winning statistics for that matter) as if they are the be all and end all in determining the worth, success, and contribution of skaters - I would suggest you are missing a great deal of what is incredible about figure skating.

    For instance - there are those who sneer at Chan's measly quad numbers, or the fact that he didn't start quads until a few years ago - or scoff that he will come nowhere near Plushenko's numbers for quads before he retires. But for me, I am grateful to be able to see Chan's edge work and the quality and the attention to detail in all of his skating. His footwork is mind boggling to me and just beautiful to witness. If more quads is what had to be given up in order to have the rest of what he does, then as a fan I am happy with that! I have seen Patrick Chan skate live a number of times and it is breathtaking IMO. Even if what comes along with that are falls as he gets his programs, jumps, choreography, head together - I still wouldn't make any kind of trade.

    Takahashi will never come near Plushenko's quad total - but as much as I admire Plushenko - if I had to choose - I would choose to watch him over Plushenko any day. I have seen him skate live as well and it was a true joy - even when he wasn't skating his best. And if we could magically trade even just a bit of his wonderful performance ability or musicality for more quads or better consistency - I would never do it!

    Yagudin didn't skate as long as Plushenko - and therefore didn't win as much or land as many quads - but with way fewer competitive years under his belt -FOR ME- there is much more to remember and admire in his work than in Plushenko's.

    Of course, as always, everyone is entitled to an opinion. But perhaps those who INSIST that these numbers are any more than a part of the picture might consider there are other factors in one's greatness as a skater and there is no PERIOD about any one view or any one aspect.

    I know there are many many posters who take quads for what they are - one element - but others - - not so much.
  33. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    YMMV but I don't see anyone doing this. People are discussing quads exclusively in this thread because this thread is very clearly labeled as a discussion of quad success rates. I didn't see anyone saying "and btw, so and so is also the best skater because of his success rate." There are plenty of other threads/polls in this section of the forum for discussion of the best overall men's skater, where indeed, other accomplishments, skating skills, and artistry are discussed along with quad/jump success. If this were a thread about who has achieved the most level 4 spins, for example, I would not expect people to discuss who was the best jumper, nor would I expect people to discuss the other points of skating in here.
  34. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. I think the main difference is that Plushenko is a much, much tougher competitor mentally, and thus considerably more consistent than Joubert.

    Nobody has done that in this thread. This is meant to be a fun comparison and topic based on a project umronnie has decided to take on. It is not a discussion of who's the greatest of all time. Don't turn it into another opportunity to lecture people about the greatness of Patrick Chan; in the context of quad jumps, there are skaters who have accomplished more. And don't go on a rant suggesting that people who make that observation are OMG haterz who only care about jumps. Nobody has said that. As cherub has pointed out to you, this thread is about quad jumps and that's all it is. The skaters with the most successful quads, based on the criteria umronnie explained, are Plushenko and Joubert. The skaters with a relatively large number of quads who have/had the best success rate are Voronov, Yagudin and Goebel. You can't seriously argue with those specific points, try as you might.

    This is not a thread about footwork, edgework, choreography, or why some people are fans of Patrick Chan. Go start one of those if that's what you wish to discuss.
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
  35. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

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    This is definately not about who is the greatest skater of all times, or even the greatest at a certain time-point. This thread is about quad jumps and nothing but. I see nobody claiming that Konstantin Menshov is twice the skater Takahashi is because he has landed twice as many quads in his career.

    In fact, a few of the skaters on the top-10 (OK, top-9) list have never accomplished anything signifcant on world level (Menshov, Voronov) while other current skaters, not even on this list, have medaled at major competition - take Hanyu, with 15 quads to his name and his WR in the SP, or Amodio - former European champion, who beat #1 Joubert, #3 Menshov, #5 Frenandez and #7 Verner for the title, while accumulating only 6 successful quads in his career.

    I started this project when I read that Joubert and Plushenko had landed 100 quads in international competition. That number boggled my mind and I set out to find out whether the claim was true. I love the quad because it embodies the highest athletic achievment in my favorite sport (not necessarily skating achievement) and since my focus is on figure skating as a sport I am interested in athletic achievements. I think that the ISU should promote this - maybe check out the quad count against their official documentation (especially that for the pro-COP era) and do something to commermorate the event when either Joubert or Plushenko hits the 100 mark - simply because it highlights the athletic side of the sport.

    The next great achievement will be the first skater to land 5 quads in a competition - I am counting on Fernandez and Orser to come up with a 2-quad SP and a 3-quad LP. Wouldn't it be something if he did it in Sochi - like Asada and her 3 3As in Vancouver?
  36. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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  37. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    If one considering how short amount of the time and distance for the preparation of a quad jump in a program, Chan is certainly outstanding in his success rate compare with the old guys, including plushenko who needs long, long glide for the jump.;)

    I agree that Fernandez could easily surpass Chan.
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
  38. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    That's a great idea! If not the ISU, then I hope the French or Russian federation does that. And maybe the Russians need to take a look at why they have guys who are on the all-time quad-jumpers list who have no international medals - is it that they land the quad consistently, but not other jumps? Or that they lack in non-jumping technical elements, or programs components? (Probably all of the above, but that conversation is not for this thread). I just think that breaking it down the way you have is really interesting, and there's lots of ways to play with this data that could be very helpful if the federations were paying attention.
  39. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    And first skater to land 3 quads in an Olympic program :)

    I'm certainly not going to sit through every quad attempt each guy has made with a timer to measure how long the setup was :scream:. That said, I'm not sure Chan's setup is that much shorter/more difficult than everyone else's. Also - IMO, the most important criteria for the success of a jump are rotation and landing (we can throw in correct technique, too, I guess). That's not to say I want to see jumps telegraphed, but if a skater needs an extra couple of seconds of setup to get a good quad, I have no problem with that.

    Since I'd rather not make this thread a debate on the merits of Patrick Chan's skating, let's leave it at that, okay?
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
  40. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    If we were looking at just IJS quads, we could look at the scores for each attempt to see who got the best GOEs. But that effort would be complicated by the fact that both the base values for the quads and the values of the GOEs have changed over the years.

    Otherwise, if we're each looking at our own measures of quality -- setup, height, distance, air position, landing position, etc. -- we'll each have our own subjective opinions and there would be no way to quantify. Judges may be similarly subjective in their evaluation of GOEs, but their numbers are official and the average counts on the record.