The Kings of Quad

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by umronnie, Jun 19, 2012.

  1. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

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    The Kings of Quad: An off-season project for quad-lovers, history buffs and rabid fans

    Brian Joubert's Wikipedia page claims, without corroboration, that "Since 2001, he has landed more than 100 quadruple jumps in international competitions". Evgeny Plushenko's page is a little less definitive "It is estimated that he has landed a total of about 100 quads in competition". Reading this I was curious to know whether they have, indeed, landed 100 quads in international competition, and – which one of them has landed more quads?

    To find the answer I looked into the international competitions listed for each of them on their Wikipedia page. I checked CoP protocols, written reports over FSU, GS and other sources, as well as a few dozen youtube clips. I am still missing records of their quad attempts and results (landed/failed) for a couple of competitions.

    If anyone has information on the following competitions it would help complete the listing:
    Euros 2000 qualifying (Plush), Finlandia 2000 (Plush, both SP and LP), Euros 2002 Qualifying (Baboo), Euros 2004 qualifying (both).
  2. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    You must have been really curious to tackle such a thing...

    Anyway, they both landed their quads in the qualifying at 2004 Euros (source), and Joubert landed a quad in the QR at 2002 Euros (source). No idea about the 2000 events.

    Considering how long they have both been skating, I think it's likely that they have landed quite a lot of quads. But I've never seen any source that states an outright number for either.
  3. PeterG

    PeterG Argle-Bargle-ist

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    This thread got me wondering about the Queens. (The ladies, I mean... :shuffle:)

    Found this on wikipedia:

  4. A.H.Black

    A.H.Black Well-Known Member

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    I was in the stands and saw Sasha land that quad. It was a good one.
  5. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I don't have the answers to the questions posed, but umronnie, I hope you will share what you have done so far. It sounds like a lot of work went into that. I imagine Plushenko must be well ahead even without the handful of events from 2000. You might be able to get your answers at a Plushenko fan forum - hopefully a Russian poster can volunteer to help you post it. He has to have ubers who tracked those events.
  6. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    I think Javi might earn the reputation as the next Quad King. His quads were his most consistent jumps last season, and his 4t and 4s were equally good! His 4s might even be better than his 4t which is pretty rare. Amazing quad jumper. Hanyu's 4t is also very good, but not as consistent as Javi's quads. According to recent news, he has 4s now too and plans to try it in his FS (along with the 4t) this season.
  7. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

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    Thanks to the info Zemgirl provided I was able to complete Joubert's list. I now have him at 95 confirmed quads out of 117 attempts - that is quite an amazing 81% success rate.

    You'd be surprised that Plushy is not well ahead. In fact, I have him at 94 successful quads out of 110 attempts (that's an amazing 85% success rate!). I assume the missing data could provide up to 5 more quads, and that would put him within one jump from the elusive 100.

    I'm not sure people understand how amazing it is to get to this "mass" of quads. It would take years of competing plus an excellent technique to get there. Takahashi has been competing nearly as long as Joubert (he has 9 years of comeptition compared with Brian's 11) and has landed 20-something quads in that time. I haven't checked Stojko's record but I suspect his count will be in the 50s, as will be Yagudin's, and they are probably the closest.

    Yeah, a lot of work went into this facts-finding mission, but I figured someone has to do it ;-)
  8. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Wow, I would have thought that since Plushy has been doing them in competition since he was 15, he'd be much further ahead. That makes Joubert's stat pretty impressive.
  9. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    Did you really check all their competitions? ISu, Gps etc ? wow, that looks like a lot of work to do:eek:
  10. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. Plushenko has done it in the SP and LP for so many years and successfully, I thought he was way ahead of Joubert.
  11. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I'm not surprised it's fairly close. Joubert has been doing quads since he was 17 or so, does them in both the SP and the LP, and hasn't taken full seasons off - so it pretty much evens out despite Plushenko's earlier start and relative consistency. Regardless, I think it's impressive that they've both been able to skate at the level they have for so long.

    How much work went into this, umronnie? I figure the big events and anything with protocols wouldn't be hard to find but it's still a lot of time - and the 6.0 stuff, especially for smaller competitions, must have been a challenge.

    ETA: I found something for you...
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2012
  12. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Wow, go Joubert! :D I didn't think it would be that close. The point about Plushy taking seasons off is well taken, and in recent years Joubert has been more likely to attempt 2 quads in the LP (3 at some events in 2006-07), while Plushy has been attempting just one in the LP. I didn't realize both were so far ahead of their competitors as well - very cool.

    Are you counting rotated quads, or totally clean ones though? Joubert often seems to turn out or step out of his quads, while Plushenko's are usually 100% clean if he doesn't fall (which he hasn't done since... 2005 worlds?).
  13. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

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    To answer your questions re how, what and how long, I haven't counted the time I spent on this project. The recent competitions - anything held under CoP - were easy to do since I keep copies of the protocol pdfs. It takes very little time to go through the proticols if you have a list of competitions. The ones held under 6.0 were a bigger problem, of course. I spend several hours wading through clips on youtube. The problem is that some of these clips' quality is not very good (we are talking about older competitions, after all) and it's not always clear what the jump is.

    As I said in the title, it's a project for quad-lovers, history buffs and rabid fans, and I guess I am a bit of all three.

    As for what I considered a landed quad - basically any fully rotated quad that the skater stood on. Turn-outs, step-outs and hands were accepted. Rotated quads so flawed that they received a -3 GoE, even without the fall deduction, I considered "incomplete" and not landed. I only considered international competitions - WC, EC, OG, GPs and senior Bs - mostly because it is very hard to get the records for domestic competitions, but you can assume that in 11 seasons they also landed more than 10 quads each in national competitions...

    Plushy and Joubert have both competed for 11 seasons so the number of competitions they attended - and thus the opportunity to land quads - is roughly the same.

    And here's another interesting bit of information: in all those years I counted ONE program Joubert did not attempt a quad in (TEB08 SP, where he only managed a 1T), and FIVE programs that Plushenko did not attempt a quad in, three of them when he was just 16, so we'll forgive him. Let's not hear about "watered down" content again, shall we?
  14. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Joubert only did three one time (2006 CoR) but he does still go for two on occasion, most recently in the SP at the Challenge Cup (IIRC). I think Plushenko has never landed more than two in one program because he only does 4T (although he has tried the 4Lz).

    FWIW, Joubert hasn't taken whole seasons off, but he has missed quite a few events in recent years due to medical issues.

    I just like researching stuff, even relatively meaningless things. ;)

    Joubert's miss at 2008 TEB was unintentional - he did plan a quad, but got the pick in wrong IIRC. I know of one competition as a senior where he deliberately did not attempt a quad: 2010-11 French Nats, in the LP.

    Either way, pretty cool that they've landed so many quads and are still landing them at age 29 (Plushenko) and 27 (Joubert). I wonder which active skaters have the next highest number.
  15. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    Wow, a big research has been done. I may make videos with their quads after I've finished all of the ladies videos I'm making right now.

    I think Stephane Lambiel also landed a quad many times. He couldn't do triple axel in SP so he had no choice other than to go for a quad.
  16. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for putting in all that effort! I am a skating and numbers and records geek, so I really appreciate it. I wonder how many quads Tim Goebel landed? He was sometimes referred to as the Quad King at least on U.S. broadcasts, and for a while was attempting a quad in the SP and 3 in the LP.
  17. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Good study. Interesting that Joubert has 1 more. If Plushenko had done one in the SP at Euros 2012 that would be 95. Their methods are so different but a lot of success. Admire their ability to get that ability and keep the ability for so long! It's totally remarkable!
  18. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Source

    "A final note: Canada’s Joannie Rochette landed one quad jump in Tuesday’s practice sessions but did not plan to attempt it yet in competition."
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  19. Rock2

    Rock2 New Member

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    I'm expecting the next quad king to be Brezina. His jumping is just so explosive. His 3F is like 8 feet in the air. He has the ability to develop more than 2 different quads.

    I'm guessing, though, that the first to do 3 diff quads in one competition may end up being Kevin Reynolds. He's got a good hit rate on the toe, sal and loop in practice so it's a matter of time before all 3 are done in competition. Doesn't guarantee him 'quad king' status, but will turn a number of heads.
  20. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Wow, this is stunning!

    So three of the five were when he was 16. One of them would have been his SP at Euros this year. Which was the other one? *ponders*
  21. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    QR at worlds 2005 I would bet!
  22. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

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    yes
  23. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

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    So I spent a few days checking out records, trying to find the "next runner up". Turns out I was wrong about Stojko - he hasn't landed nearly as many quads as I thought.

    I'm missing some data, of course (for early comps under 6.0 for which I could not find youtube clips) so I will list the precentage of competitions I managed to cover. Who wold you guess came next to Jobert and Plushy?

    Yagudin - I managed to cover all of his competitions except for some qualifying rounds and easrly comps of 1996. With 92% of his competitions accounted for I have him at 56 quads at an astounding success rate of 90%! And to think he seemed vulnerable next to Plush.

    For Goebel I covered 86% of his comps. I have him at 48 quads and an amazing success rate of 89%! I estimate his total at 56 (48/86%) - so about the same as Yags.

    Lambiel I also covered 86% of his comps. Luckily there were more under CoP. I have him at 46 confirmed quads. His success rate is 72%.

    Elvis is somewhere in the mid 20s, with a success rate of about 60%. Amazing that he's had such an impact on the sport with these stats.

    Of the skaters in competition today I have:
    Kevin Reynolds at 31 quads and a success rate of 63% (he tends to underrotate)
    Takahashi at 23 and a 61% success rate
    Chan at 20 and a 74% success rate
    Brezina (mentioned above as "the next king") at only 7 quads and a success rate of 58%.
    Will check up Fernandez and Amodio next. Anyone else?

    Of course, Joubert and Plushenko are still competing, as well...
  24. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I just noticed this addition to the thread - that's pretty neat that Yagudin managed so many, considering the length of his career and the age at which he retired. Mishin knows what he's doing with jump technique.

    It's worth noting that unlike current competitors, the success rate of 6.0 skaters wasn't affected by UR calls. OTOH, not all of them had as many opportunities to include quads in their programs, due to SP requirements at the time.
  25. Willowway

    Willowway Well-Known Member

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    Not that these guys go into the Kings of Quads running (it was a different time) but each made quad history in their own way - Urmanov landed the first successful quad in Olympic competition at Albertville (his OGM performance four years later in Lillehamer, 1994, was quad-less and I think way off his best in many respects but he won); Kulik was the first OGM to land a successful quad as part of his O's winning performance (Nagano, 1998)
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2012
  26. flipforsynchro

    flipforsynchro New Member

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    I am one of Brezina's biggest fans and it would be amazing if he could. But he needs to seriously start actually landing all of his huge jumps in competition, and stop hunching over on some of them.
  27. spikydurian

    spikydurian New Member

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    Very interesting. Thanks for all the findings. Looks like Yag had the highest success rates. I am surprised that Brian is ahead of Plushenko in no. of quad jumps. Intuitively, I would have thought Plushenko is the man in quad jumps.
  28. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I believe all of Joubert's competitions are accounted for, while Plushenko still has one missing (2000 Finlandia Trophy). So it's likely that they're tied, or Plushenko might have one or two more. However, assuming Joubert will indeed skate a full season in 2012-13, which it looks like Plushenko isn't planning on doing, that should change.

    I think the person who might come close to their totals, if he sticks around long enough, is Yuzuru Hanyu - mainly because he's still so young and started putting quads in his programs very early in his career: his first successful one, according to Wikipedia, was at the 2010 NHK Trophy (he was only 15 at the time).
  29. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    How did you even find competition results of Plushenko, before 2000? He has a bunch of ancient competitions, I didnt know they existed.
    Finlandlia trophy I never saw a video from there

    anyway I found this data on his previous website, does it agree with your search?
    Lol look what you can find on web archives, a comment about Filandia Trophy, the date is in 2000 ancient yahoo grooups???:rofl:
  30. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    Urmonov put his hand down on the landing of the quad toe in Albertville so it didn't count as the first quad at an Olympics. Looking it up it looks like Min Zhang landed the first clean quad in an Olympic competition in 1994.
  31. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

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    Just a few quick notes, and I will try to check some more info later.

    Well, they’ve both been competing for 11 seasons (Plushy took 4 years off in the middle for necessary repairs ;-) and have similar (though not the same) success rate. Actually Joubert has competed in a couple more events than Plush. For all of his health problems he’s been healthier than Plush. Also, when Joubert began competing the quad was allowed in the SP. It wasn’t in Plushy’s first two seasons, so Brian had more opportunities.

    I have Plushy at 94 w/o that Finlandia comp. Assuming he landed a quad in the SP and one in the FS that would put him at 96 – the number Senorita found.

    It’s very difficult to predict. It would take years to accumulate a large number. A skater would have to stay focused, dedicated and healthy to do that. With the demands of CoP skaing, I’m not sure the latter is possible. Time will tell.

    Some older competitions are on youtube. Some I managed to dig up eyesight reports at various FS boards. I can’t land a quad but I can dig up info…

    The number 96 agrees with my data (I will compare yearly numbers later) but the sum of all the yearly numbers is higher than 100 – so I think either it is for all competitions, not just international ones, or it is the number of attempts. Oh, well, the search contiunues…

    Yeah, but it doesn’t actually say what happened.
  32. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    ^no it doesnt say, but he is supposed to have landed at least one quad there to comment sth like
    Thats why i posted it, i thought it was a help. The previous message has the results. Sokolova and Liashenko..ah..

    The data I found though are really not dated because they stopped in 2006, but probably they have counted his russian competitions too.
  33. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

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    I have updated the "quad files" in honor of the Europeans, coming in under 3 weeks. Our two old warhorses will be going head to head.

    Plushenko currently has 94 landed quads under his belt and Joubert has 96. It is unlikely that he will land the 4 he needs to complete the first one hundred in this competition (especially in view of his current training and coaching situation) but if he has a good competition he stands a chance to do it at Worlds. Plushy would need at least two competitions to complete his 6.

    If you remember (or you can go upthread) the closest skaters after Joubert and Plushenko were three retired skaters - Yagudin with 56, Goebel with something in the low 50s (I don't have all of his results) and Lambiel with 46.

    I have updated the files and added a few skaters I did not consider when I started this project. Would you care to guess who – of the skaters currently competing – leads the group charging after Joubert and Plushy?
  34. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to assume nobody is too close in terms of number of quads landed, but if I had to guess who had a relatively large number, then in addition to Takahashi, Chan and Reynolds whom you've already mentioned, I'd go with Fernandez, because he's been doing a fair number of quads the last few years; and Tomas Verner, because for all that he pops a lot of jumps, he has been around forever and he didn't pop all of them.
  35. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

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    Good guesses, Zemgirl, but you are not even close. I'll post updated numbers for Verner and Fernandez later.
  36. wingnut

    wingnut New Member

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    Amazing thread, great work going through all the stats!

    Pretty incredible to think that Plushenko and Joubert are so far ahead of everyone else. Really highlights how unique they are for competing at the top level for so long. It still boggles my mind that Plushenko first competed at Worlds in 98 and is still a relevant medal contender 15 years later. Can you imagine how many quads and/or World titles he could have had he competed more post-2006?

    Who has the highest success rate between the two of them?

    Also interesting about Elvis "only" landing 20-something quads yet having such an impact. I think the impact would be seen in his win percentage when landing the quad (at least in the 90s). The quad was his edge over the rest of the field. Without it he was hard to beat, but with it he was nearly unbeatable. At least that's how i remember it and that was certainly the mentality that pushed others to start doing it.

    Here's hoping Plushenko and Joubert can both cross the 100 mark before they retire (one would think next year).
  37. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    Interesting indeed - my guess would have been Plush by a mile, but Joubert has certainly stuck with it!

    As for Elvis and others whose main competing years were in the 90s, I think had there been more competition and more payoff, Elvis would have done more as would others. In those days it was a highlight, something to send them over the top, sort of like icing on the cake - now that it also results in big points, it makes sense to do them more often rather than just saving the effort for one jump in the LP.

    I thought Kurt landed the first quad in competition - a Worlds in the late 80s?
  38. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Quads weren't allowed in the SP until 1998-99.
  39. screech

    screech Well-Known Member

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    Kurt did the first ratified quad, but Urmanov landed the first in the Olympics. Elvis did the first quad in combination.
  40. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

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    Kurt landed the first quad in competition at Worlds in 1988. He landed a second (and much better one) at the Canadian Championships the following year. The second person to land a quad in international competition was Petr Barna at Worlds in 1989. (Kurt also landed a quad at 1989 Worlds but had a slight touchdown with his free foot so under the rules at that time it didn't count).