The Joshua and Jason Uber Thread!

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by misskarne, Jun 15, 2012.

  1. legjumper

    legjumper Active Member

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    Being Junior World Champ doesn't mean a whole lot once the skater is in seniors. It's a nice credential to have (certainly better than not having it!), but skating history is full of former junior champs whose senior careers didn't turn out to be crazy medal-winning displays of dominance.

    Wikipedia has a list of all the medalists from all 37 Junior World Championships held so far. Of those 37 years of competition, only six JW champs have won senior Worlds: Fadeev, Petrenko, Eldredge, Yagudin, Plushenko, and Takahashi. (Kulik won JW and the Olympics, but never Worlds.) By the way, the only two-time winner of JWC is Adam Rippon, and, well. :shuffle:

    The best position for any guy to be in is to be his country's number one and then go out and destroy the rest of the field on the rink.
     
  2. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    That's why it was crucial for Josh to get some experience on the Senior GP a year before Sochi. One good thing though is besides Abbott all the other US men are very beatable.
     
  3. legjumper

    legjumper Active Member

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    Even Abbott is beatable - usually by himself, granted ;) - but let's not pretend he's an unassailable fortress. Every guy still has to show up at Nationals and fight.
     
  4. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    If Josh skates well at Nationals he very well could be sent to senior worlds, and a top 10 finish there wouldn't be out of the question if he keeps skating like this. It would be like Dornbush 2 seasons ago and remember Denis Ten was 7th at Worlds and Josh beat him handily at JW where Denis skated similarly to Worlds. If Josh goes to Worlds and/or 4CC it would set him up well going into Sochi. I assume his goal is more 2018, but making the 2014 team isn't out of the question, nor is making the senior worlds or 4CC team this season. The content and performances Josh displayed in Lake Placid show he really can contend with any of the top US men right now, and considering our current number #2 and #3 (Rippon and Miner) have yet to land a quad in competition and, for Rippon, the 3a still seems to be somewhat of an issue, there's no reason Josh shouldn't aim to make the Worlds team this season. Of course, if it doesn't work out, he can always go back to JW, and a medal or win there would also set him up well going into the next season, but right now we don't have any men who are consistently doing quads in the SP and 2 in the FS with success, so Josh's current layouts with the one 4t and two 3a planned in his FS are certainly competitive, and his international PCS, despite being at junior events, are actually some of the highest American men have been receiving internationally (behind Abbott but similar to Rippon & Miner & higher than pretty much anyone else), and he has some of the best spins in the business. There is the question of Johnny and Evan and their comebacks, and Jeremy we know CAN be great and Dornbush and Mahbanoozadeh seem to be on the comeback trail and Max and Brandon have the potential to be technically brilliant, but honestly, Josh's skates at JGP Lake Placid were better than anything Rippon or Miner put out internationally last season IMO, and that's really his main competition, so idk, senior Worlds and/or 4CC and making the Sochi Olympic team are real possibilities for Josh, or at least, they should be.
     
  5. misskarne

    misskarne #408

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    He DID? The judges were obviously a little nuts that day.

    There's just a feeling I have, an intuition - he won't struggle forever. C'mon Jason!

    Sod Jr World Champ. If Josh can bring it at Nationals he should be going to Sr Worlds. He's already proven how good he is at this level. Half a point more last year and he would be JWC and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

    A couple of GP medals would have been more valuable IMO.

    Oh, how interesting, I didn't know that. There you go then, being JWC doesn't seem to mean much in the overall scheme of things.

    If he can throw the quad toe into the short program as well and skate like he did in Lake Placid Josh can win Nationals. I've never been one for beating about the bush. :p

    The only thing I fear at Nationals is that Lysacek and Weir are going to get held up hugely by the judges. Whereas Josh has never got a favour from the Nationals judges in his life... :shuffle:
     
  6. mossop

    mossop New Member

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    Blame the judges if our favourites do not score well against non-favourites. :D
     
  7. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Josh actually has been very well respected by Nationals judges UP UNTIL the senior level. He did win 3 US titles and missed the junior title by a fraction of a point, after all, with strong PCS marks too I might add. Anyways, I tend to think that if he skates well, he will get the PCS he deserves, maybe not receive a lot of inflation like some of the other skaters do, but at least get fair marks, and judging from his international PCS, as long as its on par with that, he should be in the mix for medals with good skates. Last year, he was obviously off at Nationals, so while I think his scores were a little harsh and he got a bit hosed on PCS compared to everyone else, he didn't skate well, so the scores were justified in that it made sense they were lower than when he skated well internationally. The year before he had a broken bone and allergic reaction, torn muscle, etc so obviously things were REALLY bad so his scores are understandable. I don't think the judges at Nationals will hold Josh up if he doesn't skate well like they will probably do for some of the others, but if he DOES skate well I think he'll get the marks he deserves. Like I said, Ricky Dornbush was in a similar situation 2 seasons ago and got the marks to win silver at Nationals, and that year, the judges didn't even hold up Abbott the favorite. So I'm not too worried for the time being. I just hope he can keep this momentum up!
     
  8. misskarne

    misskarne #408

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    :lol: Well duh! It's always the judges' fault! :p

    I'm not worried about this. I'm worried about potential holding up of others. Obviously the USFSA are going to be pretty keen to have one of Johnny or Evan make the Worlds team.

    In the meantime, someone tell Josh and Angela that they are rubbish bloggers. :p No updates since Thursday? Maybe they're still recovering from the party :p:p:p
     
  9. skfan

    skfan Member

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    maybe they were intimidated by that courchevel blog where jason came across like a rhodes scholar. tough act to follow. :lol:
     
  10. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Evan is apparently pretty seriously injured currently so who knows if he will even be able to skate at Nationals let alone place top 2. As for Johnny, he's never been a USFS pet, actually, and is one of the skaters that doesn't seem to get Nationals inflation, rather scores similarly to what he does internationally. So I'm not too, too worried. After all, Sasha made a comeback in 2010 and the judges didn't have an issue naming Flatt and Nagasu to the Olympic team instead of her, and Abbott was left off the World team in 2012 in favor of a trio of Bradley, Dornbush, and Miner - none of whom were USFS pets at least at that time and only beat Abbott by a slim margin of points at that particular Nationals. We'll see how the likes of Weir, Rippon, Miner, Dornbush, etc. fair on the GP this season...I tend to think, if they aren't performing/scoring/placing particularly well, then Nationals should be judged pretty fairly. I see blatant favoritism and holding up happening only in the case that one/several of them is scoring well, winning lots of medals, qualifies for the GPF and is standing up on lots of quads (and for Adam, clean 3as as well), and quite frankly, I'm not convinced that will happen, although who knows.
     
  11. SkateFan66

    SkateFan66 Active Member

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    Where did you get your information that Evan was "pretty seriously injured." Last I heard, Evan had a groin injury that was not considered to be serious. In fact, if Evan's injury was deemed to be as serious as you proclaim (so serious that he may not be able to compete at Nationals), then USFSA would have already assigned another skater to Skate America.

    Evan has a groin injury. Some groin injuries can be severe, and even a minor groin injury can become chronic if not treated properly. However, it was reported that Evan's was not severe. As with all groin injuries, they require rest to heal properly. From all accounts, Evan has been resting the injury (cancelled Sun Valley performance and did not perform programs at Champs Camp) However, there has been no indication that Evan will have to W/D from Skate America or miss Nationals because of the groin injury.
     
  12. mossop

    mossop New Member

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    Wishful thinking? Less veterans, less competition.;)
     
  13. misskarne

    misskarne #408

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    :lol: Gotta watch out for those sneaky honor-roll skaters. And really, how can they beat the tales of late-night UNO?

    Ey? Last I heard it was a minor groin injury that pulled him out of a couple of shows/Champs Camp. He's still expected to skate at SkAm. I'm expecting him to be at Nationals.
     
  14. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe the injury is minor. I just read an article recently where they made it sound like a pretty big deal...maybe that was intentional though to protect Lysacek's reputation should he show up to SKAM and/or Nationals a shadow of his former self.
     
  15. SkateFan66

    SkateFan66 Active Member

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    :rolleyes:
     
  16. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    It's time to turn the page. Johnny and Evan have had their time in the sun and have gone to two Olympics. It's time for the younger kids to get their chance and not live in the past.
     
  17. SkateFan66

    SkateFan66 Active Member

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    I am glad that USA Swimming did not take that attitude, or else Michael Phelps would have only competed in 2 or 3 Olympics instead of 4. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

    Each federations goal is to send its BEST athletes to compete at the Olympics. If Johnny and/or Evan are among the two best skaters (or three, if USA earns the third spot at 2013 Worlds) at 2014 U.S. Nationals, then they deserve to compete at the 2014 Olympics. If Johnny and/or Evan are still among the top skaters in the USA in 2014, it will not be "living in the past" for them to compete in Sochi. Just like Johnny and Evan, the younger skaters will get "their chance" to earn a spot on the 2014 Olympic Team at the 2014 U.S. Nationals.

    It will be interesting to see what Johnny and Evan can do this season. I am kind of fond of "living in the past"....when the US men were actually competitive at the World Championship. Johnny and Evan have not competed in two seasons, yet they still have the highest personal best ISU scores among the USA skaters (#5- Lysacek 257.67; # 15 - Weir 238.87)
     
  18. misskarne

    misskarne #408

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    Disagree with this attitude entirely. If Josh and Jason want their chance they have to EARN it. If Johnny and Evan come out on top of the pile then they go. If Plushenko comes out on top of the pile at RN then he goes. If the youngsters can't beat the oldsters that's THEIR problem. There's no way the oldsters should be forced out to make way for the youngsters.

    I absolutely loathe this attitude. It smacks of feeling entitled. It's not the old guys' problem if the young ones can't beat them, end of story. Maybe the young ones who bleat about this attitude should do less bleating and more training...

    Let the youngsters prove they deserve it over the oldsters.
     
  19. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    Link please?

    I'll see what I can do! ;)

    At least Angela tweeted a few photos from Lake Placid:
    Josh and I with our coaches in Lake Placid
    Sometimes we pretend to like each other :) haha
    Lake Placid was GORGEOUS!

    ETA: Well that was quick! Joshua Farris' and Angela Wang's Saturday Lake Placid blog entry is up now! :) http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120829&content_id=37581836&vkey=ice_news
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2012
  20. misskarne

    misskarne #408

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    Last edited: Sep 4, 2012
  21. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    You really can't compare scores from 2 years ago with the scoring system currently in place. For example, among the many revisions to COP since 2010, the most significant one is that now there are only 7 required elements in the SP as opposed to the 8 elements that were in place in 2010. The men now only have 1 step sequence in the SP. In 2010 and prior years, they had 2 step sequences (an additional element to earn points). Jeremy Abbott's personal best ISU total score is 238.82 based on the 2012 season GPFinal, just 0.05 shy of Weir's total score from 2010. Had Abbott been given the opportunity to perform an extra SP step sequence in last season's GPF, there's no question he would have beaten Weir's score, barring completely wiping out on the step sequence, of course. ;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2012
  22. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this however, I don't like a situation where the federation finagles scores to reflection reputation, allowing an oldster to narrowly come out on top of a youngster by inflating the scores of the oldster and holding back the scores of the youngster. I get that Evan and Johnny deserve good PCS, but if they come out at Nationals, fail to land a quad and/or make other mistakes, then I don't think their PCS should allow them to finish ahead of a youngster like Josh if he shows up to Nationals and skates lights out nailing 3a and 4t in the SP and FS. I get there's more to skating than jumps, but there are a lot of men in the US who are sufficient enough in the other areas of skating (Miner, Rippon, Farris, Brown, Messing, Mahbanoozadeh, Dornbush) that Lysacek, Weir, or Abbott should be able to beat them with weak technical content and/or mistakes if one/several of them should skate cleanly and display very difficult technical content just because USFS inflates the PCS scores of the older guys enough to overcome this gap while not inflating the PCS, and possibly even deflating the PCS, of these younger guys. That's what I worry about. If Evan, Johnny, and Jeremy can land the big tricks and keep up the level of the rest of their skating and other guys don't do better, then by all means, they should go to the Olympics, I just want whoever goes to have earned the spot fairly.
     
  23. SkateFan66

    SkateFan66 Active Member

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    Look at the list of ISU personal best scores carefully. The majority of the top 20 scores were earned AFTER the post 2010 Olympic revisions to the COP. (may have taken out step sequence but quads now worth more points) Had Abbott executed his programs at ISU competitions the way he has at US National, then he would have exceeded Weir and/or Lysacek's personal best ISU scores.
     
  24. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    FWIW, Angela replied to my tweet earlier today as follows:
    It wasn't long afterwards that their updated blog was posted on IceNetwork. ;)
     
  25. misskarne

    misskarne #408

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    And I hope it's that way too.

    :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

    Oh dear Josh!

    Wonder who'll do the blog for Austria and if Jason will do another one for Turkey? I really liked his Courchevel one.
     
  26. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Angela and Josh seem to have an interesting relationship off the ice...I get the sense that Josh is rather shy, quiet, nerdy, and serious and Angela is more outgoing, and silly towards him, and he finds it all rather amusing.
     
  27. SkateFan66

    SkateFan66 Active Member

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    I think the results of 2011 U.S. Nationals shows that the USFSA will not hold up a skater. Abbott was the 2009 & 2010 US Champion and an Olympian; however, he was not held up by PCS. The USFSA had no problem sending Dornbush and Miner to 2011 Worlds based on their placement at Nationals.
     
  28. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Well, they didn't hold up Jeremy Abbott. I'm not convinced that's a general policy across the board.
     
  29. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    It's not Jeremy I worry about, and when he skates well Jeremy absolutely deserves huge marks. Not too worried about Johnny either because in the past he hasn't been given big favors by the USFS. My fear is more that Lysacek and Rippon get held up...and that gets me very scared because both their 3As are :scream: and I won't even get started about their "quads"....:slinkaway
     
  30. flipforsynchro

    flipforsynchro New Member

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    At least Lysacek is somewhat consistent with the 3A. Rippon on the other hand...