Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by misskarne, Jun 15, 2012.
From the OP:
It's sort of the US Men's thread...
The main U.S. Men's news and updates thread is in GSD.
I think this is the only joint Uber thread in the Trash Can right now. At some point in the future, Farris and Brown will probably have separate uber threads, I assume.
Skate Canada action photos of Josh (2 from SP, 2 from FS): http://www3.daylife.com/search/phot...is+Skate+Canada+International+2013+Saint+John
Given the insanity of certain ice dance team ubers, it's nice that (so far), this thread has been equally friendly to both skaters (who are reportedly good friends).
Fantastic skate from Josh last night! And it gets even better when you realize that he choreographed it himself (with a little help). Here's a version without comments: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsygOJRfMXQ
How awesome would it be if these two worked on a program together?
As a Buttle uber for many many years, seeing that quote from him about Josh makes me so very happy!!
Until now it still makes sense to have a joint uber thread for two young men of almost the same age who have shared a friendly rivalry since they were little boys, from Novice up to Senior, in US competitions as well as on the JGP circuits, and who apparently admire and appreciate each other over the years. US fans (like me) have watched them "grew up together", in a sense, and many hope they can maintain the friendly competition with each other and push each other for as long as they can, so that we don't have to break up the thread into two vicious uber threads arguing who is better by arguing who is worse.
The thing I dislike about Josh's "Schindler's List" is the literal and overly sentimental approach to the choreography and performance. It's already a heavily sad and tragic piece of music with a movie behind it to illustrate how sad and tragic the story is. To pile on the mournfulness and tormented feelings with out and out expression is a bit ... hmm ... like screaming in my ear how I should feel and think. I mean, sure, nearly every figure skating program is screaming in my ear with the most obvious messages, telling me exactly how to feel and what to think. It's rampant in figure skating choreography. "I'm doing Carmen! I'm fierce! I'm seductive!" Or "I'm doing Benny Goodman's band! I'm jazzy! I'm happy!" Or "I'm doing Gladiator! I'm tough! I'm strong! I'm heroic!" Or "I'm doing Romeo and Juliet! I'm romantic and baroque and tragic!"
I'm just a little tired of being told the obvious in general, but I understand most judges and spectators may not get it if the program is a bit obscure. You can't risk confusing them with irony or subtlety or restraint.
Josh is reminiscent of Buttle in some ways, and Cousins too. I'd love to see him work with either or both as choreographers in the future.
Loved Josh's Schlinder's List program, just beautiful.
I worry about Josh and his training. TSL said it's well known in Colorado that Josh doesn't train his programs and it shows. You can't hope to be a great skater if you don't put in the work and i don't understand why his coaches are not pushing him more. He has the talent to make the team even at 18. But lack of training if you are not hurt is inexcusable especially in a Olympic year.
I thought Josh didn't have the best ATTITUDE toward his training, ie he has a tendency to get emotional and frustrates easily, but I certainly think he trains hard. The Tom Z comments and comments Josh himself has made alludes to the attitude side of his training not being the best, and it seems like in years past that definitely was the case but has gotten a lot better under Allen and Krall. Given the way he kept reeling off those nearly clean FPs last season, I would think he trains his programs a lot and quite well. I have never heard anything from Krall or Allen's mouth that suggests he doesn't train hard, the only comments about his training I've heard have come from Josh himself or TSL via Tom Z, who hasn't been Josh's coach for 3 seasons now and considering how much better Josh's competition results have gotten since he left Tom makes me think that maybe some of those training issues Tom mentioned have since been fixed.
Anyways, I hope Josh can have more confidence going into COR and Nationals now, because even not skating his best he can realize he does belong on the senior GP. Being the top placed American man and posting a FS score only a handful of points below skaters like Oda and Hanyu overall and even getting PCS marks close to those two and Abbott, and higher than Brezina, Miner, and Mura, it really shows that he can compete with those guys and has no reason to feel out of place or intimidated. And he can do way better than he did at SC too, so really, there is a lot to be optimistic about.
Go Jason Brown!
Here is the relevant excerpt from the pre-SC icenetwork interview posted a few pages back:
So that makes it sound like he DOES train full programs, but let himself get distracted, and is now back on track. And I will believe what Josh tells us any day of the week over what TSL say.
One of the best things for Josh has been that Damon and Christy have been pushing him to take more responsibility for his skating. Sounds like this is another part of it. You can lead a horse to the water, but the horse is more likely to drink if it finds the water itself.
If you compare Joshua and Jason's scores, Jason scores much higher than Joshua. Jason puts every effort into training, and I think that's what it's all about. And, p.s., attitude is everything.
Last season however Joshua scored way higher than Jason for most of the season. So I'm not sure. Jason I think is more of a natural performer, whereas Joshua is more of a natural jumper. Some of it I think comes down to training and attitude, but I also think ability/talent in the areas of athleticism/jumping or performance/artistry also plays a factor.
Not always. Yes, this season, so far Jason has outscored Joshua. But they met head-to-head on three occasions last season and Joshua beat Jason every time, outscoring him in every program except one (the LP at Junior Worlds, which Jason won by two points). At US Nationals and the JGPF, it wasn't even close.
Joshua has already said what the problem was, identified it, and is fixing it. I don't understand the issue here. At least he manned up and admitted the problem, rather than hiding it or trying to avoid it.
At the end of the day, too, he and Jason are two young men with different physical attributes, different mental states, and different needs to be met. They're not going to train identically because they are not the same skater or person.
Jason's SP is still the 4th highest among all the men in the Grand Prix, only beat by Tatsuki Machida, Han Yan and Patrick Chan. And it's the highest among all the U.S. men. Not bad!
What's surprising to me is that Jason's SP outscored Maxim Kovtum, despite Kovtum doing two quads, including a 4-3. Kovtum had an 8-point advantage on jumps, but Jason had 7+ more points in steps and spins and a 2.5 point lead in PCS.
As for the FS, Jason and Josh can both claim No. 3 among the U.S. men. Jason is technically No. 3 in season's best due to his score at Nebelhorn (149.02). But Josh has the third highest among the men in the GP series (147.58 vs. 147.25).
Jsaon is No. 8 in ISU season's best and No. 3 among the U.S. men overall (231.03), Josh is No. 12 in ISU season best and No. 4 among the men (216.72). We'll see if Richard Dornbush can pass either of them in his FS tomorrow.
Of course, different panels and all that, but the 2.5 gap in PCS is a joke. Jason is miles ahead of Kovtun in terms of musicality, expression, skating skills - not to mention things like posture and elegance which don't even count in the score. I hope Jason's 3A gets consistent (he's already making progress) and that he'll be successful with the quad. I know it's a long shot, but I would love to see him in the Olympic team.
Just to clarify, you feel like it's a joke because the gap should be bigger?
2.5 points in PCS is actually a sizeable, if not huge, gap, actually. Basically, Kovtum got high 6s in transitions and low 7s in everthing else. Jason basically is in the mid- to high-7s and got one (intepretation) in the low 8s.
I don't think that's necessarily surprising. Jason's jumps may not be harder than Kovtun's, but they sure are prettier, nicer looking, and don't give me the heebie jeebies. And Jason's spins are just faaaaaaaab, while Kovtun's are passable. Not to mention Jason getting high 7s and 8s for PCS where Kovtun is scraping 6s. So it doesn't surprise me at all.
I would absolutely LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to see Joshua and Jason come head-to-head at Nationals and both skate clean. I mean, not that I'd be likely to survive a clean Riverdance AND a clean Schindler's List, but it would be really something!
I guess I'm more surprised that Jason's spins + steps (along with his +GOE on his jumps/PCS) are enough to overtake Kovtun huge jump cushion, especially as spins and steps are not worth as much as jumps.
Kovtun's 156.81 FS is 9.56 points more than Jason's FS at Skate America, but Jason missed both his 3As = 15+ points. So again, sort of interesting that Kovtum doesn't have a huge cushion even with two quads in his program. Although, was he intending to do a three quads in his program? That 2T tells me he was going for a 4T along with the two 4S.
It's too bad they aren't competing in the same second GP so that a direct TES/PCS comparison can be made with the same tech. panel and judges.
Yes, Kovtun intended to do 3 quads (planned 4T that he doubled in today's FS). Kovtun and Farris are both scheduled for Rostelecom Cup.
Thanks Sylvia. It is too bad, indeed. I'd like to see a direct comparison also. It will be interesting to see how he compares to Josh, though! Not to mention Plushy!
Jason usually gets some serious +GOE for his spins and steps, which increases their worth. I'd be interested to see what the GOE is like for Kovtun's jumps. They're so ugly, I can't imagine them getting +GOE too often, which also reduces the buffer. Then throw in Jason doing things like 'tano Lutzes and doubles with his hands behind his back, and he's getting extra GOE on his already pretty jumps. So while on the face of it Kovtun should have a huge TES buffer, when you start taking off GOE and adding GOE and changing levels then you've got the difference.
The last time Josh and Kovtun met head-to-head was the Junior Grand Prix Final in December last year. Josh won the short program (quads are not allowed in a Junior SP). He then skated doped up to the eyeballs on Benadryl for the LP and Kovtun won overall (he landed a 4-3; Josh fell off his and off another jump as well). So the last time they met was not really an even contest.
Kovtun has his internal politics to worry about; both Plushenko and Gachinski will be at CoR and I will be REALLY interested to see what happens in the PCS re: Gachinski vs Kovtun, especially if Artur screws his head on right and doesn't try to kill himself in the warmup again. But this is a pretty wicked field for both of them. Fernandez is also going to be there, among other big names.
There's a really nice article and photo spread on Josh in this month's SKATING magazine (see page 30).
Thankyou, TanithandBenFan! That's a really great insight. He talks very realistically, he doesn't deny that praise sometimes goes to his head, which is human.
And I hope this finally puts all the rubbish rumours about his training to bed!
It has been asked here why the joint thread for Josh and Jason. For me, so far, it works out. They are both wonderful talents, both have pushed each other for years, and yet they are so very different.
Jason is sunshine, joy, charm, skating skills and dancing skills to die for, a natural performer. Plus consistency under pressure, for the most part.
Josh is emotional, perfectionist, tries to solve the meaning of life in every program, creative, gorgeous jumps but not content to keep it only at that.
Both are very musical, both seem like lovely people. So far there is nothing to antagonize them if we, as fans, do not.
I love them both dearly, and , so far, equally.
Look who is very excited to be in Paris!
I'm sure Jason will take advantage of his trip to Paris to the fullest extent!
Re-posting from the Skate Guard blog updates thread in GSD:
ETA link to Absolute Skating's interview with Jason Brown at Nebelhorn Trophy in late September: http://www.absoluteskating.com/index.php?cat=interviews&id=2013jasonbrown
I enjoyed reading the interview from skateguard so much. Not only is he a captivating skater, but so eloquent and diplomatic too. I want him to succeed so badly this weekend. He seems like the nicest guy out there and I want him to do well against the big guys with their quads. Seriously good luck to all the skaters at TEB.