The Japanese Skaters May Pull Out Of Cup Of China

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by missing, Sep 23, 2012.

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  1. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    Things have calmed down. The protests have ended, as far as demonstrations etc. by the people. The governments will continue to "protest" as they have done for years.

    No one's safety can ever be guaranteed, anywhere at any time. There are crazies everywhere.
     
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  2. Lanna

    Lanna Well-Known Member

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    A free press does not mean "unbiased". A free press means it's not being controlled by the government and that it can print what it wants without fear of being hurt (censored, jailed, killed, etc) for it.

    There's likely no completely free press because of various censorship and secrecy laws worldwide, but some presses are more free than others.
     
  3. mikeko

    mikeko Member

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    Things LOOK to have calmed down because the CCP government has tightened their control again after they decided that its people had "vented" enough. The Internet is censored in China, and the government is now removing every message that can provoke violence. The CCP will let them loose and explode again when they decide that its people need to "vent".
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
  4. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    You give the Chinese government too much credit, and the Chinese people, not enough. Do you really believe the Chinese who use the Internet can't get passed the censors? Because they're the ones who told me how to. Do you really think the Chinese people don't know what's going on? I have no love for the CCP, but the Chinese people, they're intelligent people, they can read the world news too. They can google (or baidu). They can get passed the censors. They know what's going on.

    The Chinese government has so much power because the rest of the world lets it have power. The Chinese people? They give and take...they can get past the censors, but some don't feel the need. They can speak out, but some don't want to risk it. In order for things to change here, SO much needs to change internationally, but internally, people will have to die. A lot of people. So it stays the same. But it is their choice, and I understand it. But people do know what's going on, both in China and around the world; if they want to. The Chinese people allow their government to have control, knowingly.

    Just because a person agrees with the CCP on something (like maybe ownership of these islands) doesn't mean they haven't formed their own opinions.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
  5. mikeko

    mikeko Member

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    What kind of logic is this? You are blaming the rest of the world for what the PRC is today? Are you saying the Chinese have no responsibility? Are they a bunch of big babies?

    It makes no difference if they are intelligent enough to know what's happening or not when they CHOOSE to be ignorant.
     
  6. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    I'm not blaming the rest of the world (though I do think the rest of the world allows China to bully them). I do think China has too much power worldwide.

    I think the Chinese people have almost all of the responsibility. They're choosing a degree of submission (for the most part) because they want to live and are obviously happy enough with the status quo. In order to change things, they will need to risk their lives, literally, and they're choosing not to. Do you blame them? Would you risk your life, when you're content enough as it is? Would you have stood in front of the tanker at Tian'anmen? Would you protest without permission over something, knowing you would suffer for it?

    The Chinese people obviously don't see themselves as oppressed as the rest of the world see them. They also have their own history - not that distant history - to compare their lives to; and they're doing comparatively well, or at least well enough for them. They make their choices, not because they're "big babies" but because they prioritise, the same as we would. The end result may or may not be different to what you or I would choose, but it's easier for us to talk hypothetically when we have a non-Chinese passport. I can leave whenever I want.

    Why do you think the Chinese people are ignorant?
     
  7. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    I am no expert in this, but I do think some opinions of China are based on stereotypes of its government, which is based on what is reported in the press. They think everything going on in China
    Is some example of tyrany or government conspiracy.

    While I think some of it is true, I believe the Chinese gocernment just isnt that efficient :slinkaway
     
  8. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    Ain't that the truth! (The different levels and departments never talk to each other, for one thing! It drives me insane as a small, small business owner!)
     
  9. mikeko

    mikeko Member

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    An American journalist said North Korea was just like that. That's why he could repeatedly enter the county even though he was on some black lists. How similar those two countries sound.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
  10. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    The people you talk to are hardly representative of Chinese people as a whole, though.

    China is an independent country. What goes on internally is up to its government and its people.
     
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  11. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.

    :rolleyes:
     
  12. genegri

    genegri Active Member

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    How true that is! Things have changed a lot in the past 20 years. 20 years ago when Tiananmen Square happened Chinese people trusted Western news much more than their own. That is no longer true in the least.

    An interesting phenomenum which only started in recent years is overseas Chinese who have first hand experience and knowledge of living in US, Europe and other places are transferring that knowledge along with what they see and what they experience back to China. The information exchange between Chinese expat and Chinese natives are rapidly happening. I think those dialogs are also helping Chinese in China see through a lot of biases. Both in Chinese own media as well as in Western media. Sadly for the time being Westerners who have never lived in China do not have the same help to see through the biases in their own media.

    You may be surprised to know but Chinese people do not live in a vacuum anymore. Those who are interested in the outside world are easily capable of getting informed, very well informed in fact. For starter, proxy is a common knowledge there and everyone is an expert. ;)

    Chinese has comprehensive international news reporting. It reports every topic you see here. Middle East conflicts, Arabic Spring (contrary to western belief, it was reported in China), EU economy, US election, you name it.

    Now I do not agree with Chinese news censorship at all and I think it's high time for freedom of speech in China. But what I found is, even with censorship, Chinese news paints a picture of the outside world that is not that different from what you see. And my impression is Chinese people's views of the outside world is actually A LOT more accurate and less skewed than the outside views of Chinese lives, which are not as bad as some, for one reason or another, desperately want to believe. I wonder why.

    I agree. Chinese government exists because Chinese people allow it.
     
  13. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    'Those who are interested in the outside world.' So basically a small proportion of educated, middle class Chinese citizens. I doubt that those were the ones protesting and rioting against Japan.

    most Chinese people don't own computers, let alone have internet access, let alone know how to (and have the courage to) use proxies.
     
  14. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    Is this a problem? Why?

    Mikeko - I'd still like to know why you think the Chinese people are ignorant.
     
  15. mikeko

    mikeko Member

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    I said they CHOOSE to be ignorant. Those violent protesters were raising portraits of Mao Zedong. Why? While they attacked Japan for the atrocities committed more than 60 years ago, why did they praise the man who starved tens of millions of Chinese to death in the Great Leap Forward about ten years later? What does it have to do with Japan? Nothing. They were actually criticizing the current government, like "We used to be poor in Mao's era, but all were equally poor. Now fewer people get richer, and most us are getting poorer. Mao's era was better." If they really want to go back to Mao's era, so be it and they can know what real hunger feels like and another Cultural Revolution.

    Those in their 20s grew up under the anti-Japan education installed after the Tiananmen Square protests, and belong to the one-child policy generation. They were spoiled by their parents and grand parents like little emperors all their lives. They have little patience and extremely materialistic. It was totally laughable to see them missing Mao's era.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2012
  16. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    Could someone move this to PI as it doesnt relate to original topic...
     
  17. genegri

    genegri Active Member

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    Almost 40% of Chinese population (including far reaching rural China) have internet access. That's not a very small portion. I don't know how "middle class" is defined in China but of course most Chinese don't make enough money to be considered middle class by Western standard.

    The limiting factor is not "middle class" or "education" or "internet access". The limiting factor is interest. And of course only those who are interested will take time to dig deep and seek out multiple sources of information to try to see through biases and propaganda. Much like anywhere else.

    On the contrary, the better informed are the ones leading the protests. And the public sentiment is aligned with them. This is one of those issues that get relatively unanimous reactions from Chinese. It's not like only the uneducated are the ones who don't agree with you.

    And this is exactly what is so different from 20 years ago. When Tiananmen square happened in 1989, everybody, the educated, progressive students, city dwellers, farmers, all were unanimously unhappy with the Chinese government.

    It is not nearly true anymore today. The general public (by general public, I mean those who are not particularly interested in politics) opinions have turned less than 180 but more than 90 degrees. And among the traditionally progressive students and intellectuals opinions are very split.

    The Chinese people have collectively made a decision and they are living it.

    As I said about 40% (and increasing fast) Chinese have internet access, presumably more have computers. They don't need "courage" to use proxies. It's right there and everyone does it. Like speeding. ;)

    However my argument would be, they should not have needed proxies in the first place. The government should officially remove politic censorship. Not to mention it practically doesn't work anyway.

    Generalizing much?

    Do you seriously interpret them as missing Mao's era? They certainly are not missing Mao's era but they are pointing out that as bad as Mao's era was, there were certain things better than the current government. Chinese people's views on Mao are polar split. Not nearly as all praises as you seem to believe.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2012
  18. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

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    I keep thinking that there's new information about the skaters. Silly mistake.
     
  19. query5

    query5 New Member

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    shouldn't do it, but as far as security, should not only provide security for japanese skaters but chinese as well.

    people do carry hard feelings regarding politics.policies regarding their own government.

    which carries over to political judging at competitions.
    caroline zhang needs protectiion look at her Political scores.

    still doing same old with caroline too bad. wouldn't cheat like other u.s. female ladies,
     
  20. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    You think the "anti-Japanese education" was installed after the Tian'anmen square protests? That shows just how little you know.

    mikeko - have you ever lived in China for a period of time? Have you ever spoken to anyone who lives here? How about those who lived through the times you're talking about?

    All of those who are requesting this be moved to PI - you know all you have to do is ask a moderator, right? I'm not sure that posting it in here works...but you can definitely just PM a moderator and I'm sure they'd move it.

    (There is already a thread in PI by the way, maybe the posters in this thread can't access it.)

    FWIW I don't think the Japanese skaters will have any problems here, and I think if the JSF decides to pull out, it'll be a real shame, and a total political move (that will, of course, do nothing). There is no such thing as an iron-clad guarantee of safety (or anything else).
     
  21. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    Check out the Monitor and the Merrimac. Iron-cladding sometimes does work. ;)
     
  22. leapfrogonice

    leapfrogonice Active Member

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    This is such a sad and volatile situation. Being able to "assure" security in an arena event would seem impossible to do.
     
  23. allezfred

    allezfred Mince Pie Depriving Admin Staff Member

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    I think this thread has run its course. Hopefully the Japanese skaters will be at Cup of China, but until anything further is announced......
     
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