The "bests" of the best

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by skateboy, Sep 21, 2011.

  1. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    I thought it might be fun to compare the best competitive performances of the best skaters, starting with ladies. Take a look and see what you think. Who do you think is truly the "best of the best?" (Of course, these are just my opinions of their best performances.) Can you imagine if all these performances were in one actual competition? A figure skating fan's dream come true! Anyway, enjoy and judge!

    Katarina Witt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLiJlOMdylg

    Midori Ito: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvgWI8QDrzQ

    Tonya Harding: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buQXBXmjumU

    Kristi Yamaguchi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJNs1esR0_Y

    Nancy Kerrigan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7RvWbnaDZk

    Tara Lipinski: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZhIs6OIJ-I

    Michelle Kwan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptj_tO7tIXg

    Irina Slutskaya: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvBSI97Vuw8

    Sasha Cohen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouNL5ux17c4

    Yu-Na Kim: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc35PYNEQMk

    Mao Asada: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsCZCM8AKCU
     
  2. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Poor Witt who had perhaps her all time moment of shining glory that night, outskating Thomas, Kadavy, Trenary, and young Ito all at their best to regain her World title, would still be guaranteed to come dead last just based on jump content vs those others alone. Unless the competition were held place in the figures era.

    If you are talking about a competition it really depends what format it would take place in. Under COP the winner would probably be one of Slutskaya or Kim. Under non figures 6.0 it would probably be Ito or Kwan. Under the format including compulsory figures who knows.
     
  3. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Just based on these programs, I watched them all and gave them my own scoring. This was SO hard! I aimed to give equality to both content and choreo/artistic. Anyway, here's what I came up with (and I was very surprised by my own results!):

    1. Tonya
    2. Sasha
    3. Yu-Na
    4. Tara
    5. Kristi
    6. Midori (this pains me--I love her--but was there any choreography?)
    7. Michelle
    8. Mao
    9. Nancy
    10. Katarina
    11. Irina

    If I were a judge, that's how I would have scored it. But this is not my order of "favorite skaters" at all! It should be fun to see what you come up with. These are ALL great performances.
     
  4. doubleflutz

    doubleflutz New Member

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    :confused: You keep using that word! I do not think it means what you think it means!

    That's not the best Midori LP anyway. Artistically, it's her Calgary Olys skate, but if you only include programs with 3A the 1989 is better than 1990.
     
  5. falling_dance

    falling_dance The Scarlet Unlettered

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    The only thing I knew to do was the rank the programs two different ways, re-list them from the lowest point total to the highest, and use the "second mark" as the tie-breaker where necessary...

    Technical: Sheer difficulty weighed against my own uninformed idea of what sound technique is; also, the more kinds of triples there are in a program, the better. Speed, carriage, edging, ease of movement, difficult footwork and spins count for a great deal.

    (1) Harding (2) Ito (3) Kim (4) Kwan (5) Slutskaya (6) Asada (7) Yamaguchi (8) Cohen (9) Lipinski (10) Kerrigan (11) Witt

    Artistik: Basically, a program that is coherent and delivered with great commitment trumps one in which certain elements (or even the skater's carriage throughout the program) stand out as beautiful in a performance that otherwise seems merely like skating to four minutes' length of music. Not that that's really any help in showing where and explaining why decisions about some rankings were close. :p

    (1) Kwan (2) Cohen (3) Asada (4) Witt (5) Kim (6) Lipinski (7) Yamaguchi (8) Harding (9) Kerrigan (10) Ito (11) Slutskaya

    And so...

    1. Michelle Kwan, 5
    2. Kim Yu-Na, 8
    3. Mao Asada, 9 (wins the artistik tie-break)
    4. Tonya Harding, 9
    5. Sasha Cohen, 10 (That it's threadbare RobinLake keeps :sasha1: off the imaginary podium. Even so, my kingdom for a no-commentary video of that breathtaking performance...)
    6. Midori Ito, 12 (Oh, there's choreography in that program, all right. It just isn't the very best.)
    7. Kristi Yamaguchi, 14
    8. Katarina Witt, 15 (If Jutta Muller's choreo is a cowbell, Witt fully explores the space with it.)
    9. Tara Lipinski, 15
    10. Irina Slutskaya, 16
    11. Nancy Kerrigan, 19

    If skateboy had chosen the 1989 NHK Trophy LP for Ito, the 1999-2000 GPF LP2 or the 2002 Worlds LP for Slutskaya, and the 1997-8 GPF LP for Lipinski, this would've been much more difficult for me.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2011
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  6. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Shizuka Arakawa should have been on this list.
     
  7. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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  8. sk9tingfan

    sk9tingfan Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for posting! While I love Kwan's Red Violin performance, my marginal favorite of all time for her would be her SOTBS at Worlds the following year.
     
  9. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Why are you judging 6.0 programs with COP criteria? The skaters did not prepare for those rules. They need to be judged by the rules of their times, not by 2011.
     
  10. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    This is TOUGH.

    1)Michelle Kwan (great technique, most mature presentation)
    2)Tonya Harding (best jumps, great excitement and power)
    3)Tara Lipinski (speed, infectious energy, difficulty in the 2nd half)
    4)Midori Ito (Iconic jumps, wonderful personality, one small mistake)
    5)Sasha Cohen (Terrific interpretation, spins, and positions)
    6)Yuna Kim (Amazing jumps, but I find this LP ZZZzzz)
    7)Kristi Yamaguchi (So many transitions and a clean skate)
    8)Irina Slutskaya (Good but issues with the final steps, spin, and zayak rule)
    9)Asada (She doesn't get the music, jumps not well-rounded)
    10)Kerrigan (great night for her, but the difficulty doesn't stack up)
    11)Witt (blah)
     
  11. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    The problem is some of those skaters like Kim and Asada did prepare their programs for COP so it would likewise be unfair to judge them by 6.0 standards. Others like Witt and sometimes Ito prepared their programs under the 3 event compulsory figures format. Not all the skaters were in the 6.0/no figures era.

    Anyway if I chose how I think those performances would fare in a competition with each other, rather than which I like most I would say:

    1. Yu Na
    2. Midori Ito
    3. Michelle Kwan
    4. Irina Slutskaya
    5. Tonya Harding
    6. Kristi Yamaguchi
    7. Mao Asada
    8. Sasha Cohen
    9. Tara Lipinski
    10. Nancy Kerrigan
    11. Katarina Witt
     
  12. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    Just curious...Irina broke the Zayak rule (3 triple loops) forgot a large portion of her step sequence, and her last combo spin was a mess so what puts her above so many of the others for you?
     
  13. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    I know it wasn't a question for me but I would say extraordinary joy of skating and exuberance. What's more, huge jumps (only the great Midori and Queen Yu-Na compare with her in terms of height), the most difficult triple-triple and good spins but all these are less important.
     
  14. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I dont think the judges care about the Zayak rule in one time offense cases unless it is under COP, and since most of these women skated under 6.0 I scored it under that (yes I think Kim would still win out under 6.0 btw). I have often heard commentators point out a triple will be discounted since there was an accident it wasnt put in combination or repeated a 3rd time, but I always found it was never reflected in the scores one iota. The rule just kept skaters in line, and nobody would go beyond the rule or more than the very rare occasion. Her spins are still better than the vast majority of the women on the list, in fact the only better spinner on the list is Cohen probably, although Ito was also very good in her younger years. Her triple-triple combination was the hardest any of the women did, and her jumps are more explosive and better than most of the women listed. The overall presentation was excellent because of the energy, command, and overall confidence she skated with IMO.

    I am curious too btw why you think Tara would be over Kim. Is there anything Tara does better than an in the zone Kim even in that "best ever" performance, except doing a triple loop. Kim has MUCH better quality jumps, stronger non jump elements, triple-triples and combinations galore herself, as much or more speed, and better artistry.

    I also dont think those were the best performances of a couple of those women. Ito skated better performances at the 89 Worlds and 89 NHK which would probably place even higher on peoples lists who dont have her 1st. I even preferred her performance at the 91 Trophee Lalique even with the singled triple loop, artistically the program was much better. Irina skated better performances at the 2000 GP final, 2001 Russian Nationals, 2004 Cup of Russia, and 2005 Cup of Russia, which I am pretty sure would rank higher than most are ranking her on their lists. Michelle it is so hard to choose a best ever performance. Her 2000 Worlds LP was my favorite of hers, but many would probably pick her 2001 Worlds LP or 98 Nationals LP instead.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2011
  15. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    I would rate Rochette's 2009 Nationals Aranjuez over quite a few of these performances, certainly over Cohen, Kerrigan, and Witt.
     
  16. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough. Re: Tara, I may be in the minority, but I think her lack of artistry is greatly exaggerated. She sold the heck out of her programs IMO, especially at the Nagano games. While her jumps in no way compare to Kim and many others in terms of quality, I'm just really impressed by the fact that most of the difficulty came very late in the program which just made for a WOW ending. I can't think of any lady skater since who has done such difficult maneuvers so late in the program. Just my opinion, but Kim's LP in Vancouver, great as it was, feels empty to me. I just don't see much emotion...she seems pretty complacent about the whole thing, and I think it was one of David Wilson's most ZZZZzzz creations. If she had skated it with the energy she had in the short, I would have moved her up the list significantly.
     
  17. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Did you forget Midori Ito's triple axel in the second half of her LP in the 1992 Olympics?
     
  18. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty sure that happened in 92...and pretty sure I said "since." :)

    Mao was doing 3f/3r pretty late in 08 for a little while and Courtney Hicks has moved hers to the latter half as well, but still a 3t/half-loop/3sal with TEN SECONDS to go? Crazy!

    ETA: Midori's spontaneous 3A was the highlight of those games, and it's a shame that with the rigid jump slots in CoP it wouldn't be possible:(
     
  19. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    I agree that is difficult to evaluate programs under different systems but first, I'm not sure if I would consider some of these performances the "best" competitive skates from these skaters.
     
  20. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    I enjoyed watching many of those programs again, especially Michelle's Red Violin LP. One thing I'd forgotten was how chatty the ABC commentators were. They talked through the whole thing. I didn't mind then, but now I find it annoying. Thanks for posting.
     
  21. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    True! For example, I believe Mao Asada's 2008 4CC LP far exceeds her 2010 Worlds LP.
     
  22. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    The crime is that I am pretty sure the judges were planning on placing Kwan's amazing Red Violin program only 3rd had Maria and Irina not messed up (or possibly just Irina since Maria could have lost the LP to Michelle and beaten her overall, in fairness to Maria she did deserve her SP win and lead IMO). The judges also gave her nearly as many 5.6s as 5.9s for that amazing performance (two 5.6s and four 5.9s). Maria's Swan Lake LP that year was ghastly, it showcased all her worst traits. Even if she had skated it cleanly I would have hated it. Her stiff disjointed interpretation of that music did make me appreciate how wonderful Baiul's Swan Lake SP was however. Irina's bland and uninspiring interpretation of Carmen this year likewise also made me appreciate Witt's flirtatious and dramatic interpretation of Carmen that much more, even with all the posing.
     
  23. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    I'm surprised that Tonya Harding is listed so high on several of these lists. Her Skate America performance is definitely her best, but I always found the program a bit tacky. :shuffle:

    Yes, I also believe it got a higher score, so technically her 2010 worlds performance was not her best.
     
  24. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    EXACTLY! Cohen and Kerrigan are considered better than Arakawa? :confused: I DON'T THINK SO! They also are not better than Chen Lu or Yuka Sato IMO.
     
  25. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Tacky or not nobody can compete with those jumps except Ito (and possibly to a lesser degree Kim and Slutskaya). The spins, edge quality, flow, speed, and power, also were formidable. Harding at her best usually could beat Yamaguchi, and that wasnt easy to do back then.
     
  26. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Kerrigan and Cohen dont even belong on the list, especialy Kerrigan. Kerrigan's very best can still be easily beaten by any great skater, heck it was even beaten by a subpar Baiul, whether deservedly or not.
     
  27. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    It's all just for fun, people. Sure, let's add Shizuka, Lu Chen, Maria, Yuka, etc.!

    When I watched all these programs back-to-back, I was so surprised at my personal reaction. I thought for sure Midori would top the list for me but, despite the great jumps, her presentation lacked much more than I'd remembered.

    I also figured Michelle would wipe out a lot of skaters artistically, but for me, I saw a wonderful carriage and nice lines without much actual musical interpretation. (I know, I know, kwaniacs. JMO...) Kristi surprised me. I've always liked her as a persona, but her skating never really excited me. But this was a beautifully delivered program.

    Tonya: I was really surprised at how expressive and interpretive she actually was. Her jump quality may have been even better than Midori's--personally, I think it was.

    Katarina: of course her jump content can't compete with the others, but I did feel it was a gorgeous program and she (and Sasha) had that natural "it" quality that none of the other ladies can match. Speaking of Sasha, so nice to see a CLEAN program! She really was a special skater.
     
  28. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    When Kristi was an amateur I didnt like her at all. I found she was the most boring American skater since Rosalynn Sumners. I appreciate her much more in retrospect than I did back then.
     
  29. gingercrush

    gingercrush New Member

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    Of course. Must have been very exciting watching Yamaguchi rise through the ranks of single skating while you were being conceived and then in your mothers tummy. And you popping out and her winning Worlds and Olympics.
     
  30. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I agree she was not an exciting skater as eligible skater, and she was competing against Midori who would bring the audience to the edge of their seats. In 1989 I thought she was a nice 17 year old skater with potential. One year later she had developed but still not interesting enough. In 1991 things seemed to come together for her, with more balance between her jumps and artistry. Still, my favorite was always Midori Ito.

    Although Kristi deserved her 1992 OGM- even with a so so performance- I did not become her fan until after she turned pro. That's when she really developed into a complete skater. She developed artistically without losing the consistency of her jumps, for several years. That was impressive, and her programs were much more interesting too.