The 4 quad debate

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by johndockley92, Mar 11, 2013.

  1. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    I know that a lot of fans are anticipating the days we see 4 quad programs and a handful of skaters are working on such programs as well. However, I think that it's simply not worth it.

    Assuming a skater can do 4S and 4T, it'd likely be smarter to do two of their strongest quad and one of the weaker one. Let's take Max Aaron for example. If he does two 4S and two 4Ts then he can only do one 3A. In essence the second 4T would be replacing a 3A. 4T is worth only 1.8 more than a 3A, which in a close finish may make the difference of even two placements, however if for instance Max's Axel is on, he can get positives on it. Now, I've never seen his toe completed in a program, but I assume that any new jump would be weaker than a jump he has done for many years already. In my opinion, for a skater to do a fourth quad, that quad should be as consistent as their triple axel, or else it isn't worth it at all. There's no reason to take such a huge risk over less than 2 points. Just my opinion anyways
     
  2. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Tim Goebel might have benefited from being allowed to do 4 quads. I think you are right, but maybe there are unusual skaters like Goebel heading toward a 4 quad program soon. His 3A seemed less consistent in competition than his quads.
     
  3. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Is there a rule that says he can't do two 3As if he does four quads?

    I am cautiously for it; I would like to see it but ONLY if the skater who tries it can do so without putting himself at unneccessary risk. Given Max is a Tom Z skater I am especially wary.
     
  4. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    The Zayac Rule. I think it's for repeating quad and triples, right ?

    Plus, if you do two quad toe, one must be in combo, same for quad sal. So, in fact, by repeating those 2 quads, you have to be good at quad/triple combo. If not, it's better in term of points to do 3Axel/3Toe, than 4Toe/2Toe. Am I right ?
     
  5. sequinsgalore

    sequinsgalore Member

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    If he has three different quads in his arsenal (I don't think anyone has), he can do four quads and two 3As eg. 4T, 4T+2T, 4S, 4F, 3A, 3A+2T (and two other jumping passes)
     
  6. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Is it better to do a quad-double or a triple-triple?
     
  7. Sylvia

    Sylvia Bring on the JGP & Sr B comps!

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  8. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    Theoretically, i believe that someone could do something along the lines of

    4S+3T
    4S
    4T+2T
    4T
    3X
    3Z+1/2R+3S
    3R
    3F

    and there would be no invalid elements or extra combinations
     
  9. gingercrush

    gingercrush New Member

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    Ok a bit OT but if the Triple Loop was the first ever triple why is it no one has attempted a Quad Loop yet we have had several Quad Lutz and Flip attempts (both ratified??) and several skaters that can do a Quad Sal?

    Also Quad Loop in pairs. When are we going to see one?
     
  10. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    ^^ I believe both Reynolds and Mroz attempt 4L

    I also realize that it is possible to do a 4 quad program, but I'm saying it's probably not worth the risk.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2013
  11. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

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    Given that there had only been less than 10 programs with 3 successful quads (Joubert and Reynolds one each - yes, Kevin only managed it once, at 4CC, Javier twice and Tim Goebel 4 or 5 times) I find the 4-quads debate rather academic.

    It would probably take immense concentration and stamina, thus making it difficult to perform the rest fo the program, so possibley the elevated BV isn't worth it. However - it will make for a great wow-factor and probably result in elevated PCS and being the first (and only) man to do it is good for your repuatation.

    Since the competition is a combintion of SP and LP scores, it would be better to concentrate on a 5-quad-competition - 2 in the short, 3 in the free. If you are solid enough to go for 4 in the free you should be secure enough to go for 2 in the short.
     
  12. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    The Zayak Rule treats quadruple and triple jumps separately, so it's possible, for example to have two 4T's and two 3T's in the same program or even two 4T's, two 4S's, and two 3T's. The problem with having two 4T's, two 4S's, and 3A's in the same program isn't the Zayak Rule per se but the rule that limits a skater two three jump combinations, only one of which can be a three-jump combinations, and the practicalities of the program. Without working it out on paper, I think the skater would have to have at least one jump combination end with a 4T, and good luck with that!
     
  13. all_empty

    all_empty Well-Known Member

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    Takeshi Honda landed a 3 quad program at 2003 4CCs.

    Not sure what jumps are still in Brandon Mroz's repetoire, but he's done 4T and 4Lz. Did they say he was trying a 4Lo at Nationals?

    I believe Roman Serov was trying 4Lo, too.
     
  14. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    AFAIK this is false. You can only repeat two jumps that are triple and higher.
     
  15. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Actually he was never prohibited from doing 4 quads. I think he just preferred to repeat the 3axel in the free because his 4toe was less consistent.

    No. If you repeat 2 4toes, 2 4sals and 2 3toes, you will be repeating more than 2 types of jumps with 3 revs and over. The last one will not count. And this is precisely because 4toes and 3toes are viewed as different jumps.

    And similarly you can't repeat 2 4toes, 2 4sals and 2 3axels. But for argument's sake, it's possible to devise such a layout without having a combination ending in a 4toe:

    4toe3toe2loop
    4toe
    4sal2toe
    4sal
    3axel3loop
    3axel (illegal, should be replaced with 3loop in this case)
    3lutz
    3flip
     
  16. morqet

    morqet Active Member

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    But surely that wouldn't work either because then you'd be repeating 4t, 4s and 3lo? Wouldn't you have to replace the 2nd 3a with a 2a? This rule is so confusing!
     
  17. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    2Axel, or 3Sal.

    So, Zayak rule applies to triple and quad together ? Good to know :)
     
  18. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Sorry, yes I meant 3sal in the bracket. :)
     
  19. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    It turns out that I was mistaken.

    ISU Rule 512:

    http://www5.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-206192-223415-177357-0-file,00.pdf

    That means that a skater who does two 4T's and two 4S's can't repeat any triple jumps. As far as I can tell, the most likely jump layout would be something like this:

    4S+2T
    4S
    4T+2T
    4T
    3A
    3Z
    3F
    3R+2T+2T
     
  20. skatak

    skatak Well-Known Member

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    Indeed.
    I heard Yagudin was also working on it, though never saw it from my own eyes (except once a quad attempt of which I missed the entrance, but due to the place on the ice and the curve, it may well have been a 4Lp attempt).
     
  21. all_empty

    all_empty Well-Known Member

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    You left out a 3T and 3S. This is legal too (4 Quads, 6 Triples):

    4S+3T
    4S
    4T+2T
    4T
    3A
    3Z
    3F
    3S+3Lo+2T

    And if you want to get really mathematical, this is pretty much as many jump elements a man can pack in (4 Quads, 6 Triples, 1 2A) with no sequence deductions:

    4T+3T+2Lo
    4T
    4S+2Lo
    3A
    3Lz+3Lo
    3F
    3S
    2A

    Although I suppose this is possible and insane (4 Quads, 6 triples, 2 2A)

    4T+3T+3Lo
    4T
    4S
    4S+2Lo
    3A
    3L
    3F
    2A+2A+SEQ
     
  22. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    Interesting thread, I have no doubt that someone will eventually skate a 4-quad LP sometime in the future. After all there's nowhere else to go but up! And mayhap if might even be Max Aaron (he did state that's his dream). But for now, no, 2018 Olympics, yes. :)

    In the meantime my bet is on 3 men skating a 3-quad LP at next year's Olympics (if they make the team, of course): Javiar Fernandez (duh), Kevin Reynolds, Max Aaron. :smokin:
     
  23. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Chris Mabee already did 4Loop at the practices.
     
  24. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    Brandon Mroz regularly does 4L in practice.

    The following layout is worth more, points wise than anyone has posted above.

    4S 3L
    4S
    4T
    4T 3T
    3A
    3lz 1l 3s
    3f
    2A
     
  25. all_empty

    all_empty Well-Known Member

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    No, sorry. What I posted above (and copied below) has a higher base value (not applying any time bonus):

    4T+3T+3Lo
    4T
    4S
    4S+2Lo
    3A
    3L
    3F
    2A+2A+SEQ

    This layout has an additional 2A and a maxed out three-jump combination (yours includes a half-loop, which is scored as a 1Lo).
     
  26. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    You could up the value of yours a tiny bit by turning the final 2A+2A sequnce into a 3S+2A sequence too.
     
  27. all_empty

    all_empty Well-Known Member

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    Oh d'oh missed the Salchow, sorry John and Antman, you're right.

    4T+3T+2A
    4T
    4S+3Lo
    4S
    3A
    3L
    3F
    3S+2A

    Okay, I think that's maxed out. LOL.